Sutherland 20/20 Load and Gain Settings

HiFi Guy said:
Did you move recently?

Is your floor suspended or a slab?

Looking at that pic though, the speaker placement is still a stretch.

The KAB filter isn’t a bad thing, especially with 50 watts per channel. The filter is making the amp work less as it’s not amplifying subsonic signals.

If it sounds good, all is well.
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We set everything up when we moved in back in January of 2020. The Vandersteen instructions tell you how to measure the room, as I assume you know since you recommended the Vandersteens to us back in 2018, and we have them placed in the proper place to counter nodes. We love the Vandersteens. The floor is not a slab; it has a subfloor. Everything sounds good. I really was just curious why I might need a subsonic filter, but I think I have a grasp now. Thank you! Your advice has been very much appreciated over the past few years :) We love our setup!
 
forkandspoon said:
We purchased our Vandersteens in 2018. They do not have power to them, so I am assuming they have a passive radiator?
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I should have chosen my words more carefully; it is a subwoofer driven by the power amp as it is crossed over at a lower frequency than the woofer. It has a voice coil, so it is driven.

Older models, I believe, used a passive radiator which has no voice coil and is driven by the back pressure from the woofer, like the Klipsch Forte. It’s not “active” in the sense that it’s powered. Vandersteen tries to use flowery language to make a distinction; they call it an “Active Acoustic Coupler”.

I agree with @HiFi Guy on the KAB filter and the speaker placement. Having the turntable 5 feet in front of the speaker may create issues, but the filter will handle it.
 
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forkandspoon said:
We set everything up when we moved in back in January of 2020. The Vandersteen instructions tell you how to measure the room, as I assume you know since you recommended the Vandersteens to us back in 2018, and we have them placed in the proper place to counter nodes. We love the Vandersteens. The floor is not a slab; it has a subfloor. Everything sounds good. I really was just curious why I might need a subsonic filter, but I think I have a grasp now. Thank you! Your advice has been very much appreciated over the past few years :) We love our setup!
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@forkandspoon - Thought of you recently - everything still okay with the 20/20?
 
Does anyone use the 64db setting? Using 58 on my OC9XML and feel like that's enough, just curious whether anyone has found a cartridge that benenfits from the 64db gain, or if that's what they'reusing on the daily?
 
ngower said:
Does anyone use the 64db setting? Using 58 on my OC9XML and feel like that's enough, just curious whether anyone has found a cartridge that benenfits from the 64db gain, or if that's what they'reusing on the daily?
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I’m running 58db for my Zephyr. I imagine you’d only go with 64db for the lowest-output carts.
 
My 20/20 appears to be on the fritz - the right channel is intermittently going dead. Doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to it.

I've reached out to Ron and he's already responded to me several times. I've sent him photos of the unit and explained all my troubleshooting steps; will let you all know how everything goes.

Meanwhile, might need to look into a placeholder phono. Waxwing time??
 
kvetcha said:
My 20/20 appears to be on the fritz - the right channel is intermittently going dead. Doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to it.

I've reached out to Ron and he's already responded to me several times. I've sent him photos of the unit and explained all my troubleshooting steps; will let you all know how everything goes.

Meanwhile, might need to look into a placeholder phono. Waxwing time??
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The Waxwing would be an intriguing choice. If I were looking for a backup phono that I might only use for a short duration, I'd consider a vintage pair of Sony HA-T10 SUTs and a Classic Audio Spartan 5 phono.

The reason why is because @HiFi Guy was quite complementary on how the SUTs benefitted his Sutherland Duos - a similar effect I'd imagine with the 20/20. The Spartan 5 is a seriously good bargain MM phonostage in itself and would be a good backup to have in case one is needed. Just one guy's opinion.
 
Angsty said:
The Waxwing would be an intriguing choice. If I were looking for a backup phono that I might only use for a short duration, I'd consider a vintage pair of Sony HA-T10 SUTs and a Classic Audio Spartan 5 phono.

The reason why is because @HiFi Guy was quite complementary on how the SUTs benefitted his Sutherland Duos - a similar effect I'd imagine with the 20/20. The Spartan 5 is a seriously good bargain MM phonostage in itself and would be a good backup to have in case one is needed. Just one guy's opinion.
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I’m running a Denon SUT on the 20/20 and it is a great combo!
 
ngower said:
Does anyone use the 64db setting? Using 58 on my OC9XML and feel like that's enough, just curious whether anyone has found a cartridge that benenfits from the 64db gain, or if that's what they'reusing on the daily?
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Stumbled on this old thread so I figured I'd share my experiences.

Hana ML is my first MC cart, and I wasn't sure if it would be a keeper running straight into my Sutherland 20/20.
I tried a few different settings. Various combinations of 58db/64db + 100/200ohms. In the end I felt it sounded best at 58db + 200ohms. That's where I started, and after a few weeks, that's where I ended up.

The top end was amazing, and imaging was really a whole new level. However it really seemed to lack bass punch and impact. Even some of the midrange felt thin because the sound simply didn't have enough weight to it. 64db brought back the bass, but just sounded a little blown out at the top end. Just lost the refinement.

I was considering either moving to another phonostage entirely, or trying an SUT. I ended up with an SUT and bringing the 20/20 back to 40db and 47k. This really brought back the weight and boogie that the ML was missing. It does have a slight reduction of the top end refinement, but honestly I don't feel like I'm missing anything. When I was at 58db + 200ohms acoustic strings and female vocals were amazing, but any rock or tracks with a driving bass line just felt too laid back and a little dull. I also was riding the volume knob at about 50-60% when at 58db, compared to around 33% with my digital side. Just a much lower signal and was really starting to push my little 20w tube amp to get to above 75db in the room. Cranking it was just out of the question on vinyl going straight into the Sutherland. The SUT allows me to ride the volume much closer to other sources, gives me the punch, still has amazing detail and space and overall just feels like the best solution for my system.

I think if the Sutherland had tighter db steps, maybe a 3 db step to 61db, that might have been the perfect match for my specific cart/system. But this option is great as well, and I can carry the SUT to any other phono I might bring in down the road. Also just gives me a little more flexibility if I ever run into other combos that just aren't quite jiving.
 
displayname said:
Stumbled on this old thread so I figured I'd share my experiences.

Hana ML is my first MC cart, and I wasn't sure if it would be a keeper running straight into my Sutherland 20/20.
I tried a few different settings. Various combinations of 58db/64db + 100/200ohms. In the end I felt it sounded best at 58db + 200ohms. That's where I started, and after a few weeks, that's where I ended up.

The top end was amazing, and imaging was really a whole new level. However it really seemed to lack bass punch and impact. Even some of the midrange felt thin because the sound simply didn't have enough weight to it. 64db brought back the bass, but just sounded a little blown out at the top end. Just lost the refinement.

I was considering either moving to another phonostage entirely, or trying an SUT. I ended up with an SUT and bringing the 20/20 back to 40db and 47k. This really brought back the weight and boogie that the ML was missing. It does have a slight reduction of the top end refinement, but honestly I don't feel like I'm missing anything. When I was at 58db + 200ohms acoustic strings and female vocals were amazing, but any rock or tracks with a driving bass line just felt too laid back and a little dull. I also was riding the volume knob at about 50-60% when at 58db, compared to around 33% with my digital side. Just a much lower signal and was really starting to push my little 20w tube amp to get to above 75db in the room. Cranking it was just out of the question on vinyl going straight into the Sutherland. The SUT allows me to ride the volume much closer to other sources, gives me the punch, still has amazing detail and space and overall just feels like the best solution for my system.

I think if the Sutherland had tighter db steps, maybe a 3 db step to 61db, that might have been the perfect match for my specific cart/system. But this option is great as well, and I can carry the SUT to any other phono I might bring in down the road. Also just gives me a little more flexibility if I ever run into other combos that just aren't quite jiving.
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Just curious - did you try the ML at 475 or 1000 ohms without the SUT? It's a lot more than what is technically required, but it wouldn't harm anything either.
 
Angsty said:
Just curious - did you try the ML at 475 or 1000 ohms without the SUT? It's a lot more than what is technically required, but it wouldn't harm anything either.
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I tried it at a few, but I don’t remember every exact combo honestly. I do remember that going up a step or two in loading didn’t seem to have the same impact as going down to 100. But any way around it I always ended up at 58/200. I played with it every few days for a couple weeks.
 
displayname said:
Stumbled on this old thread so I figured I'd share my experiences.

Hana ML is my first MC cart, and I wasn't sure if it would be a keeper running straight into my Sutherland 20/20.
I tried a few different settings. Various combinations of 58db/64db + 100/200ohms. In the end I felt it sounded best at 58db + 200ohms. That's where I started, and after a few weeks, that's where I ended up.

The top end was amazing, and imaging was really a whole new level. However it really seemed to lack bass punch and impact. Even some of the midrange felt thin because the sound simply didn't have enough weight to it. 64db brought back the bass, but just sounded a little blown out at the top end. Just lost the refinement.

I was considering either moving to another phonostage entirely, or trying an SUT. I ended up with an SUT and bringing the 20/20 back to 40db and 47k. This really brought back the weight and boogie that the ML was missing. It does have a slight reduction of the top end refinement, but honestly I don't feel like I'm missing anything. When I was at 58db + 200ohms acoustic strings and female vocals were amazing, but any rock or tracks with a driving bass line just felt too laid back and a little dull. I also was riding the volume knob at about 50-60% when at 58db, compared to around 33% with my digital side. Just a much lower signal and was really starting to push my little 20w tube amp to get to above 75db in the room. Cranking it was just out of the question on vinyl going straight into the Sutherland. The SUT allows me to ride the volume much closer to other sources, gives me the punch, still has amazing detail and space and overall just feels like the best solution for my system.

I think if the Sutherland had tighter db steps, maybe a 3 db step to 61db, that might have been the perfect match for my specific cart/system. But this option is great as well, and I can carry the SUT to any other phono I might bring in down the road. Also just gives me a little more flexibility if I ever run into other combos that just aren't quite jiving.
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The "less bass" punch is kinda my takeaway too, though I live in an apartment and don't NEED that much bass. But there is an appreciable difference going from MM carts to the MC with 58db in that respect, and I feel like 58 is just not an ideal gain setting when most of these carts ask for 60. My one gripe with the 20/20 compared to my Insight.
 
ngower said:
The "less bass" punch is kinda my takeaway too, though I live in an apartment and don't NEED that much bass. But there is an appreciable difference going from MM carts to the MC with 58db in that respect, and I feel like 58 is just not an ideal gain setting when most of these carts ask for 60. My one gripe with the 20/20 compared to my Insight.
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I think that's hard to say honestly. The output and impedance are both factors that impact how well the components match the carts.
Hana ML: 0.4mv - would probably do better between 60-62db gain.
Sumiko Songbird: 0.5mv - probably a slightly better fit with the 20/20
AT Art9xi: 0.5mv - Same as above
Lyra Delos: 0.6mv - probably bang on with the 20/20
Ortofon Quintet Black: 0.3mv - might actually play well with the 20/20 at 64db gain

And the impedance of the carts is all different, and honestly a little over my head still. And we're assuming that all these companies are measuring these tiny units with the same tools and methods, which probably isn't the case.

Obviously the Sutherland 20/20 will get it done. But I think it's kind of impossible for one phonostage to be the perfect match for everything you might throw at it. Honestly, I wish phonostage companies would be more open about what they paired with the unit when testing and doing their final listening. That's part of what gave me confidence with the Bob's devices SUT. He was running an Umami Blue in the demo, which I knew had the same specs as the ML for loading and output. He also was very open about the Hana line being his current favorite on the market, which means it is likely a natural pairing. He was however using a different (tube) phonostage that might have had less gain than the Sutherland's lowest 40db gain. So things could potentially be even further optimized if I really wanted it to be.

If money and time were less limited, I'd love to do more testing and various combos. I read in some cases people were putting Bob's Devices SUTs in front of phonostages like Modwright PH9.0. That's a big deal because Modwright is using SUTs in the PH9.0. So is Bob's Devices better? Is the exact step up ratio better for the cart on hand? Does a longer cable run help/hurt depending on the combo (more cable length generally when running an SUT with two cables).

Basically, no absolutes here. It's a lot of math, and more realistically a lot of trial and error to find those perfect combos.
 
displayname said:
I think that's hard to say honestly. The output and impedance are both factors that impact how well the components match the carts.
Hana ML: 0.4mv - would probably do better between 60-62db gain.
Sumiko Songbird: 0.5mv - probably a slightly better fit with the 20/20
AT Art9xi: 0.5mv - Same as above
Lyra Delos: 0.6mv - probably bang on with the 20/20
Ortofon Quintet Black: 0.3mv - might actually play well with the 20/20 at 64db gain

And the impedance of the carts is all different, and honestly a little over my head still. And we're assuming that all these companies are measuring these tiny units with the same tools and methods, which probably isn't the case.

Obviously the Sutherland 20/20 will get it done. But I think it's kind of impossible for one phonostage to be the perfect match for everything you might throw at it. Honestly, I wish phonostage companies would be more open about what they paired with the unit when testing and doing their final listening. That's part of what gave me confidence with the Bob's devices SUT. He was running an Umami Blue in the demo, which I knew had the same specs as the ML for loading and output. He also was very open about the Hana line being his current favorite on the market, which means it is likely a natural pairing. He was however using a different (tube) phonostage that might have had less gain than the Sutherland's lowest 40db gain. So things could potentially be even further optimized if I really wanted it to be.

If money and time were less limited, I'd love to do more testing and various combos. I read in some cases people were putting Bob's Devices SUTs in front of phonostages like Modwright PH9.0. That's a big deal because Modwright is using SUTs in the PH9.0. So is Bob's Devices better? Is the exact step up ratio better for the cart on hand? Does a longer cable run help/hurt depending on the combo (more cable length generally when running an SUT with two cables).

Basically, no absolutes here. It's a lot of math, and more realistically a lot of trial and error to find those perfect combos.
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40/60 are kinda the most recommended tho
 
ngower said:
I'm too sick to use my brain, but I just wish the gain settings across the Sutherlands were consistent.
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The Sutherlands were designed at different times. The Insight is actually a better built, AC-powered version of the older, battery powered PH3D.

The 20/20 was more of a clean sheet design keeping with Sutherland's dual mono principles.

Since the Insight was originally produced, Ron has substituted the 10K loading with a 475 ohm loading, per reports from other N&G owners.
 
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