Black Lives Matter

Selaws said:
Im just quoting your post here @Joe Mac as you specifically talk about police here in the UK.

I honestly have mixed feelings here. Mine and my girlfriend's close friend is a Police Detective here in the UK. We have both known her for a good chunk of our lives (my girlfriend grew up with her at school etc) and she is the nicest person there possible could be. She works in quite a specialist area (which I won't state for obvious reasons) and sympathy and compassion is literally the backbone of her job, she just couldn't do it without it. A relative of hers has the hardest job I can imagine, which is a Police Detective specialising in child abductions (you can imagine the horrors they have seen). When I see people here saying fuck the WHOLE police, they are all horrible (or words to that effect) it really hits me as there will be Police officers out there that are the nicest and most honourable people. If the 2 officers I mentioned didn't exist, the quality of life for hundreds of people they have directly helped would be awful, with more deaths and violence happening to them as a result.

At the same time the stuff that is going on in America is obviously awful, and I will admit to not being clued up on the American policing system, but I can only assume the scenario is the same over there, that there are 'good' police amongst the bad. Now obviously if that 'good' police sees injustice or crime committed by a 'bad' police offer but doesn't report it, then they are complicit as well.
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I agree with you. Saying "fuck the police" puts you at the same level as a racist who says "fuck black people". There are tons of good policewomen and policemen as there are tons of great black people. Of course there are stupid policewomen and policemen as there are stupid black people. Thing is that medias will only show you what they want. It amazes me how easily we start fighting between standard people and how much energy and time we waste doing it. Keep saying "fuck the police" guys, racists will keep saying "fuck black people" and it will all be the same in ten years. I get that things reached a level where people are getting mad and only see destruction as the solution. It's not. Only education can help to change things. All of this can disappear in one or two generation. Meanwhile, powerful people say thank you and look at us, destroying our buildings and shops and buying huge quantities of paper rolls. IMO the main problem with the police (and I am not talking about racists, these are two different kind of people) is that they forgot who they are supposed to defend. We have seen a similar situation in France with the Covid-19 situation. A few months ago, police were fighting nurses and doctors because there where in strikes asking for better work conditions. Now police are applauding them. Our governments know how to manipulate us. Let's show them we are better than what they think.
 
Skalap said:
I agree with you. Saying "fuck the police" puts you at the same level as a racist who says "fuck black people". There are tons of good policewomen and policemen as there are tons of great black people. Of course there are stupid policewomen and policemen as there are stupid black people. Thing is that medias will only show you what they want. It amazes me how easily we start fighting between standard people and how much energy and time we waste doing it. Keep saying "fuck the police" guys, racists will keep saying "fuck black people" and it will all be the same in ten years. I get that things reached a level where people are getting mad and only see destruction as the solution. It's not. Only education can help to change things. All of this can disappear in one or two generation. Meanwhile, powerful people say thank you and look at us, destroying our buildings and shops and buying huge quantities of paper rolls. IMO the main problem with the police (and I am not talking about racists, these are two different kind of people) is that they forgot who they are supposed to defend. We have seen a similar situation in France with the Covid-19 situation. A few months ago, police were fighting nurses and doctors because there where in strikes asking for better work conditions. Now police are applauding them. Our governments know how to manipulate us. Let's show them we are better than what they think.
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I think that misses the point though that the police institutions themselves are broken. Even if you accept the tenant of requiring policing the original ideals of policing by consent and the police being the people and the people being the police is broken and not just in America, I see it everywhere all the time.
 
Joe Mac said:
FYI I was born in the 80s in a coal mining town, I don’t think the rift between the police force and the population at large will ever heal over them acting as a militia and fighting a de facto war against striking workers.
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This is super interesting, I researched Doncaster heavily for a years worth of work (interviewed a lot of ex-miners as well) and I can certainly understand your view point based on this.

What I would ask though is that if there was no police whatsoever now, would it be more beneficial to society? I would personally argue that it wouldn't be at all.
 
Joe Mac said:
I think that misses the point though that the police institutions themselves are broken. Even if you accept the tenant of requiring policing the original ideals of policing by consent and the police being the people and the people being the police is broken and not just in America, I see it everywhere all the time.
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That's what I am saying by "the main problem with the police (and I am not talking about racists, these are two different kind of people) is that they forgot who they are supposed to defend". Police are not defending people anymore, they defend powerful people/companies who actually don't give a shit about police AND people.
 
Selaws said:
This is super interesting, I researched Doncaster heavily for a years worth of work (interviewed a lot of ex-miners as well) and I can certainly understand your view point based on this.

What I would ask though is that if there was no police whatsoever now, would it be more beneficial to society? I would personally argue that it wouldn't be at all.
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Yeah, two of the pits my Dad managed were on the outskirts of Doncaster and another two were in North Yorkshire (both in Selby). The Yorkshire coalfields were definitely much more militant than where I am from in Notts and I’d say the sentiment is much stronger there but it persists in Notts and was definitely a theme throughout the town when I was there.

It’s a difficult one to say. I have had pretty much zero interaction with the police during my lifetime and I’ve felt no more safe when I’ve see police officers about, in a lot of occasions I’ve felt more on edge and less safe, whether that’s the situation demanding them or just them being there is difficult to say.

I can imagine that the inner city forces reassure white/privileged people but have the opposite effect on ethnic minorities/poor people.

I can see some benefit in some of the things they do in detective work (breaking peadophile rings etc) but I see little evidence that they have learned, or are willing to learn, the mistakes of 30 years ago with Stephen Lawrence and 15 years ago with Jean Charles de Menezes and that doesn’t inspire confidence. I also have no confidence that scenes like what happened in the 80s with the miners wouldn’t be repeated if a Tory government ordered it and offered the overtime to do it again.
 
Skalap said:
I agree with you. Saying "fuck the police" puts you at the same level as a racist who says "fuck black people". There are tons of good policewomen and policemen as there are tons of great black people. Of course there are stupid policewomen and policemen as there are stupid black people.
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No. Sorry. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the issue, and once us white people are able to think this through properly, maybe things will change.

Fuck the police is the ONLY acceptable position. Because the police force is the organization that is murdering people. You talk about ":good policewomen and policemen". Are they? If there are so many of them, why has this hateful system been allowed to continue. By staying silent, by upholding the code of silence that exists in the police force, by protecting their "not so good" coworkers with their silence and their inaction, they are, by definition, NOT good policewomen and policemen. They are watching while crimes are committed. They are supposed to serve and protect. Who the fuck are they serving and protecting? Because it's not citizen (at least not citizens of colour).

Voluntarily join a hate organization and you are, by virtue of your membership in that organization, hateful.

Fuck the police because the police is a festering organization of hate, control, oppression and injustice. Fuck them until they don't exist any more.
 
juiceless said:
No. Sorry. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the issue, and once us white people are able to think this through properly, maybe things will change.

Fuck the police is the ONLY acceptable position. Because the police force is the organization that is murdering people. You talk about ":good policewomen and policemen". Are they? If there are so many of them, why has this hateful system been allowed to continue. By staying silent, by upholding the code of silence that exists in the police force, by protecting their "not so good" coworkers with their silence and their inaction, they are, by definition, NOT good policewomen and policemen. They are watching while crimes are committed. They are supposed to serve and protect. Who the fuck are they serving and protecting? Because it's not citizen (at least not citizens of colour).

Voluntarily join a hate organization and you are, by virtue of your membership in that organization, hateful.

Fuck the police because the police is a festering organization of hate, control, oppression and injustice. Fuck them until they don't exist any more.
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I don't want to speak for @Skalap here if I have misunderstood but I took his point to mean that the statement is tarnishing a whole group of people with the same brushstroke, in the same way that racists have been doing for all of time. I completely agree with the current movement and that the police officers in question should be held accountable, and as such a reworking of the fundamentals of the police should also occur to ensure everyone is protected and treated the same way. What I personally do not agree with is the fact that I should now hate my close friend and family members that are in the police force who, as far as I am aware, have never been anything more than law-abiding, sympathetic, and helpful towards the general public.
 
Joe Mac said:
I think that misses the point though that the police institutions themselves are broken.
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I'm not remotely qualified to comment on US police issues (beyond there are some serious issues) but with reference to the UK, something that has struck me for years is that the difference between regional police forces is extraordinary. I'm a middle aged white man, possessed of every innate privilege going but I don't trust the Met (Metropolitan Police- responsible for Greater London for the benefit of the US members) at all. It's a big force and in every dealing I've had with it, it exists to look after itself. Likewise, you mention Doncaster which is South Yorks- another big force with a long and distinguished history of looking after its own- and some jaw dropping examples of sheer ineptitude.

By contrast, Thames Valley who look after where I am now is different enough to feel like a different institution (the metrics seem to suggest a significantly lower complaint rate than the Met too). It's a smaller organisation, spread out over more smaller stations and it never exudes the 'jobs for the boys' attitude of the Met.

What I am trying to say? I'm not completely sure but I do feel that the bigger the organisation, the more the issues seem to make themselves felt. In the UK, I honestly feel that splitting some of the larger forces up-London in particular- would, on its own improve things.
 
BjorgenFjorgen said:
Choosing to put on a uniform that for generations has sheltered and encouraged racist behaviour is *not* the same as having a certain colour of skin.
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I dont think anyone is disagreeing with you there?

Assuming you are referring to what I mentioned in response to Juiceless's point, I am simply saying that the very act of stating one group of people shares the same views of a single member is not something that I personally think should ever be done, regardless of who it is we are talking about. By that regard, I would have to tell someone who specialises in recovering kidnapped children that they are a racist horrible person who is bringing more misery to the world than goodness, which I dont agree with or believe.
 
Ed Selley said:
I'm not remotely qualified to comment on US police issues (beyond there are some serious issues) but with reference to the UK, something that has struck me for years is that the difference between regional police forces is extraordinary. I'm a middle aged white man, possessed of every innate privilege going but I don't trust the Met (Metropolitan Police- responsible for Greater London for the benefit of the US members) at all. It's a big force and in every dealing I've had with it, it exists to look after itself. Likewise, you mention Doncaster which is South Yorks- another big force with a long and distinguished history of looking after its own- and some jaw dropping examples of sheer ineptitude.

By contrast, Thames Valley who look after where I am now is different enough to feel like a different institution (the metrics seem to suggest a significantly lower complaint rate than the Met too). It's a smaller organisation, spread out over more smaller stations and it never exudes the 'jobs for the boys' attitude of the Met.

What I am trying to say? I'm not completely sure but I do feel that the bigger the organisation, the more the issues seem to make themselves felt. In the UK, I honestly feel that splitting some of the larger forces up-London in particular- would, on its own improve things.
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My personal experience has been with three forces. South Yorks (Sheffield) which could be the same force as around Doncaster to be honest. Not good. Greater Manchester. Very bad. And Notts. To be honest with Notts I’ve had no bad experiences and know good people on it but the whole town distrusts the force because of the whole miners strike thing. That said they voted a Tory in the last so maybe that’s all changing, or maybe they just hate Corbyn and wanted Brexit that much!

And yeah the met, that’s the hornets nest that I think is directly comparible in a lot of ways to the issues in the US, just thankfully not armed!
 
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Selaws said:
I dont think anyone is disagreeing with you there?

Assuming you are referring to what I mentioned in response to Juiceless's point, I am simply saying that the very act of stating one group of people shares the same views of a single member is not something that I personally think should ever be done, regardless of who it is we are talking about. By that regard, I would have to tell someone who specialises in recovering kidnapped children that they are a racist horrible person who is bringing more misery to the world than goodness, which I dont agree with or believe.
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I don't doubt that you may know police officers who are good individuals. I have done so in my life, too. If the police as a group are doing racist things, and someone chooses to put on that uniform, then in that capacity they are in fact not good. I'm pointing out that it is absolutely not the same to judge the police as a whole as it is to judge black people for the colour of their skin as a whole. One is a choice, one is not.
 
I live in a community that is relatively safe and up untill recently I was primarily white working class. They love their sheriffs department. I follow the department on FB. A few weeks back, just after the incident in GA, they posted an incident where a officer connected a recently homeless family to services. There was all sorts of praise for the act in the comments. Of course it’s a good act, but this is the bare minimum for being a human being. 90% of the people put in this situation would have done the same thing.
 
I think we need to remember to center black voices. I need to remember that too.

Layla F Saad is a black woman that is doing so much work to educate. White people, we need to do the work. Please. I urge you to look into ordering a copy of Me and White Supremacy and to do her 30 day exercise. I did it last year and learned so much about the racism and prejudices I hold inside because of our society. And how I must continually work to undo it and to learn.

LAYLA F. SAAD

I am soon going to do the exercise again. If anyone is interested in going through the exercise together, please let me know. It is really tough work that made me very emotional several times. I found it helpful to have someone doing it at the same time. We could then bounce our ideas and thoughts and questions off of each other without asking our black friends to undertake even more emotional labor. If you do not want to do the exercise with me, I'm totally cool with that, it isn't about me. It is about doing the work - just do find someone to go through it with.

If black people are telling us, time and time and time and time again that the justice system is prejudicial and is racist, we must believe them. Sure, there are good cops. But I equate saying that with saying, "All lives matter". It is not the time. We are at this point because the bad cops have more weight than the good cops. I'm not asking anyone to turn on their family and friends because they are cops. I am asking everyone to think, to have the uncomfortable discussions, to do the work, to listen. And if you don't agree with the movement, maybe just don't say anything?
 
Selaws said:
I don't want to speak for @Skalap here if I have misunderstood but I took his point to mean that the statement is tarnishing a whole group of people with the same brushstroke, in the same way that racists have been doing for all of time. I completely agree with the current movement and that the police officers in question should be held accountable, and as such a reworking of the fundamentals of the police should also occur to ensure everyone is protected and treated the same way. What I personally do not agree with is the fact that I should now hate my close friend and family members that are in the police force who, as far as I am aware, have never been anything more than law-abiding, sympathetic, and helpful towards the general public.
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You understood well.

juiceless said:
No. Sorry. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the issue, and once us white people are able to think this through properly, maybe things will change.

Fuck the police is the ONLY acceptable position. Because the police force is the organization that is murdering people. You talk about ":good policewomen and policemen". Are they? If there are so many of them, why has this hateful system been allowed to continue. By staying silent, by upholding the code of silence that exists in the police force, by protecting their "not so good" coworkers with their silence and their inaction, they are, by definition, NOT good policewomen and policemen. They are watching while crimes are committed. They are supposed to serve and protect. Who the fuck are they serving and protecting? Because it's not citizen (at least not citizens of colour).

Voluntarily join a hate organization and you are, by virtue of your membership in that organization, hateful.

Fuck the police because the police is a festering organization of hate, control, oppression and injustice. Fuck them until they don't exist any more.
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I still have to disagree. As @Indymisanthrope wrote, one thing is the institution, the other are the people. I might be naive but I believe in people and that with education, we can all (police, people from all colours) change things. Code of silence is THE thing that must be changed in police force. Once one policeman or woman feels free to denounce his racist, violent or misogynist colleague, things will change. The question is, does the system and the people who benefits from this system, wants these changes? Of course not.

BjorgenFjorgen said:
Choosing to put on a uniform that for generations has sheltered and encouraged racist behaviour is *not* the same as having a certain colour of skin.
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I am not comparing a colour and a uniform, I am comparing a way of thinking. Hating someone because is black or because he uses a uniform is wrong, both are human and should be respected as a human. If one or the other does something wrong, then he must be judged for what he did, but certainly.

Teeeee said:
I think we need to remember to center black voices. I need to remember that too.

Layla F Saad is a black woman that is doing so much work to educate. White people, we need to do the work. Please. I urge you to look into ordering a copy of Me and White Supremacy and to do her 30 day exercise. I did it last year and learned so much about the racism and prejudices I hold inside because of our society. And how I must continually work to undo it and to learn.

LAYLA F. SAAD

I am soon going to do the exercise again. If anyone is interested in going through the exercise together, please let me know. It is really tough work that made me very emotional several times. I found it helpful to have someone doing it at the same time. We could then bounce our ideas and thoughts and questions off of each other without asking our black friends to undertake even more emotional labor. If you do not want to do the exercise with me, I'm totally cool with that, it isn't about me. It is about doing the work - just do find someone to go through it with.

If black people are telling us, time and time and time and time again that the justice system is prejudicial and is racist, we must believe them. Sure, there are good cops. But I equate saying that with saying, "All lives matter". It is not the time. We are at this point because the bad cops have more weight than the good cops. I'm not asking anyone to turn on their family and friends because they are cops. I am asking everyone to think, to have the uncomfortable discussions, to do the work, to listen. And if you don't agree with the movement, maybe just don't say anything?
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Educate, educate, educate :)
 
BjorgenFjorgen said:
I don't doubt that you may know police officers who are good individuals. I have done so in my life, too. If the police as a group are doing racist things, and someone chooses to put on that uniform, then in that capacity they are in fact not good. I'm pointing out that it is absolutely not the same to judge the police as a whole as it is to judge black people for the colour of their skin as a whole. One is a choice, one is not.
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Ok I think I have a better understanding of what you are saying, and I agree with you in regards to the choice aspect for sure.

One interesting point which I will raise is that my friends work partner (who is a police officer) is black. I do wonder what he feels about the whole situation (and people in the same position as him). I completely agree with the movement which is happening at the moment, the issue I still seem to find is nagging me is the term (and meaning) behind the 'Fuck the WHOLE police'.

Again, I am not trying to be argumentative here, just voicing how I feel conflicted in that aspect.
 
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