Jazz

HuddieLedbetter said:
I stayed over the weekend in Paris and stopped by Sam Records — with Fred having the health scare it seemed like a nice was to support. As many have said, a lovely shop.

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Lovely stuff, im going to be in Paris in a few weeks and have carved some time to go and show some support for Fred.

Out of interest, are the Big Bill's from the Artisan series or have they/are they going with standard pressings as well?
 
Selaws said:
Lovely stuff, im going to be in Paris in a few weeks and have carved some time to go and show some support for Fred.

Out of interest, are the Big Bill's from the Artisan series or have they/are they going with standard pressings as well?
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They are then artisan series. I got the sense that Vol 1 is running low (mine is 443/450) but that Vol 2 is still easily available (mine was 003/450) — they had to go to the back to look for Vol 1, so it may be worth a call
 
HuddieLedbetter said:
They are then artisan series. I got the sense that Vol 1 is running low (mine is 443/450) but that Vol 2 is still easily available (mine was 003/450) — they had to go to the back to look for Vol 1, so it may be worth a call
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The inventory count was on the web store page before they took it down due to Fred’s illness. I haven’t looked for a while but last time I checked it seemed like there were fewer than 100 left of both volumes, and 30-40 more copies of Vol. 2 than Vol 1, but don’t quote me on that. Both of mine are 82 of 450. I think Fred was giving matching numbers when he could.
 
kafunis said:
Fuck Him.
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Exactly. The Pablo catalog generates little to no enthusiasm among long term jazz fans. There are a few gems - Ellington/Blanton, Basie Barbeque - but as a whole, Pablo was recording artists late in their careers - past their primes - with their best work behind them.

The Tatum/Webster is a masterpiece, though. It wasn't a Pablo recording in the first place.

IMO, there are way too many jazz reissues being pumped out lately. I get it - they sell. A-U-D-I-O-P-H-I-L-E-S with money, but limited taste.

Far too many that, back in the day, were cut-out bin numbers pretty quickly. Far too many that knowledgeable jazz folks are hardly clamoring for. Far too many exceptional titles that narrow people like Chad won't touch or the suits at Craft/Universal deem to be less than instant sell-outs (keep the cash rolling - don't sit on inventory for 6 months!).
 
MikeH said:

Sahib Shihab - Summer Dawn LP Rearward - Stranded Records

It is summer dawn... and you are alone. Here is music for your strange mood. The piano starts the first track, slow tempo beat, a strict beat, a swinging beat. Lillemor – here minor harmonies give the tune a rural, romantic feeling of some place in Spain or France. The tempo changes to medium...
www.strandedrecords.com www.strandedrecords.com
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Incredible record (Campi's Idea being a highlight for me) and my second favourite record by him after The Danish Radio Group LP.
 
RHANDMJ said:
Exactly. The Pablo catalog generates little to no enthusiasm among long term jazz fans. There are a few gems - Ellington/Blanton, Basie Barbeque - but as a whole, Pablo was recording artists late in their careers - past their primes - with their best work behind them.

The Tatum/Webster is a masterpiece, though. It wasn't a Pablo recording in the first place.

IMO, there are way too many jazz reissues being pumped out lately. I get it - they sell. A-U-D-I-O-P-H-I-L-E-S with money, but limited taste.

Far too many that, back in the day, were cut-out bin numbers pretty quickly. Far too many that knowledgeable jazz folks are hardly clamoring for. Far too many exceptional titles that narrow people like Chad won't touch or the suits at Craft/Universal deem to be less than instant sell-outs (keep the cash rolling - don't sit on inventory for 6 months!).
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Many if not all points taken, but “knowledgeable jazz folks” = 💀🦨💀🦨

Plenty of “knowledgeable” music folks hate music I love, including plenty of jazz. A gross number of “knowledgeable” music folks pan prog as self-indulgent (perhaps it is, but that doesn’t stop me from loving a lot of it (I also hate a lot of it)), but, without irony or awareness of the hypocrisy, fawn and salivate about an endless number of singer/songwriters whose core talents are writing generic songs about themselves, whining about their lives, feelings, problems, etc. I could go on with other examples about “knowledgeable” music people’s absolute bullshit, but I won’t.
 
RHANDMJ said:
Exactly. The Pablo catalog generates little to no enthusiasm among long term jazz fans. There are a few gems - Ellington/Blanton, Basie Barbeque - but as a whole, Pablo was recording artists late in their careers - past their primes - with their best work behind them.

The Tatum/Webster is a masterpiece, though. It wasn't a Pablo recording in the first place.

IMO, there are way too many jazz reissues being pumped out lately. I get it - they sell. A-U-D-I-O-P-H-I-L-E-S with money, but limited taste.

Far too many that, back in the day, were cut-out bin numbers pretty quickly. Far too many that knowledgeable jazz folks are hardly clamoring for. Far too many exceptional titles that narrow people like Chad won't touch or the suits at Craft/Universal deem to be less than instant sell-outs (keep the cash rolling - don't sit on inventory for 6 months!).
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plenty of enjoyable sessions on Pablo...no reason to hate...IMO these artists were in more relaxed settings, familiar lineups, etc and the music reflects that, and the actual times these were recorded in...

but Chad is a marketer, and Concord is in the business of selling music, and physical, individual albums marked-up to today's rates is the most profitable way to do that, so...good for them if they sell, and if they don't they'll be cutouts....the cutout era is coming again, way too much product out there in general, but in the glass half fun version there has probably never been so much jazz in print since the 50/60s...

am I a buyer of these, no...but I'm not a buyer of 95% of music generally...
 
Portland Sheriff said:
Many if not all points taken, but “knowledgeable jazz folks” = 💀🦨💀🦨

Plenty of “knowledgeable” music folks hate music I love, including plenty of jazz. A gross number of “knowledgeable” music folks pan prog as self-indulgent (perhaps it is, but that doesn’t stop me from loving a lot of it (I also hate a lot of it)), but, without irony or awareness of the hypocrisy, fawn and salivate about an endless number of singer/songwriters whose core talents are writing generic songs about themselves, whining about their lives, feelings, problems, etc. I could go on with other examples about “knowledgeable” music people’s absolute bullshit, but I won’t.
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I love prog!

I can't stand the current crop of supposed singer/songwriters endlessly pumping out generic, self-absorbed drivel in their whiny voices.

Pablo was started by Norman Granz essentially to record artists that he managed. These artists, for the most part, were past their prime and well past major label contracts. Again, IMO, but to me 'relaxed' here translates to 'the fire is gone'. There are exceptions.

But it is simply true that Pablo ran counter to the direction of jazz at the time and was reflective of Granz's own tastes formed during the 40's and 50's.

My point, really, is not to knock Pablo, but to point out that there are far too many unnecessary reissues, particularly exploiting Universal catalog, flooding the market rather indiscriminately. It seems that Chad and Concord are feeding off each other, just lining their pockets courtesy of hungry audiophiles who are often just seeking sound but not knowing deeply about the music.

Even worse, Chad/Concord know that Pablo isn't exactly prime territory (they haven't been eager to reissue Pablo before), so Chad is offering a 'subcription numbered' option to really feed off that audiophile obsessiveness and status through exclusivity.

IMO - sick.
 
RHANDMJ said:
I love prog!

I can't stand the current crop of supposed singer/songwriters endlessly pumping out generic, self-absorbed drivel in their whiny voices.

Pablo was started by Norman Granz essentially to record artists that he managed. These artists, for the most part, were past their prime and well past major label contracts. Again, IMO, but to me 'relaxed' here translates to 'the fire is gone'. There are exceptions.

But it is simply true that Pablo ran counter to the direction of jazz at the time and was reflective of Granz's own tastes formed during the 40's and 50's.

My point, really, is not to knock Pablo, but to point out that there are far too many unnecessary reissues, particularly exploiting Universal catalog, flooding the market rather indiscriminately. It seems that Chad and Concord are feeding off each other, just lining their pockets courtesy of hungry audiophiles who are often just seeking sound but not knowing deeply about the music.

Even worse, Chad/Concord know that Pablo isn't exactly prime territory (they haven't been eager to reissue Pablo before), so Chad is offering a 'subcription numbered' option to really feed off that audiophile obsessiveness and status through exclusivity.

IMO - sick.
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My point wasn’t so much that singer/songwriters of a sort or prog or anything is good/bad. Quite the opposite. Yeah, I have my personal opinions, but they’re mine — completely subjective and dynamic/evolving. Millions of people love those singer/songwriters. I don’t judge or think they’re wrong.

My point was a repugnance of the idea of “knowledgeable” anyone (not you; generally) in the music option/critic world, as if there are objective truths about quality/taste. Granted, there is on exception, and that’s Huey Lewis who, if I believed in God, I’d be certain God’s purpose in creating Huey was to create an exception to prove the rule.

Likewise, “knowledgeable” people who, inexplicably to me, think a 20-minute musical adventure that’s pleasing to the artists is somehow self indulgent, but a whole album about one’s own misery, breakups, etc. isn’t. They both can be self indulgent. More importantly, who give a shit if something is self indulgent?
 
When it comes to the question of reissues I always go with the viewpoint that if the demand wasn't there, they wouldn't be reissuing them.

I have to admit that I don't know a whole lot about Chad, but I imagine he has enough experience in the industry to be able to know whether a reissue series will be a success or not in terms of sales. If it isn't a success, then I cant imagine he will continue on with it.

I personally have a few Pablo records that I have picked up cheap over the years and although they aren't top tier in terms of my go-to labels, I still enjoy them. I probably wont be picking any of these up, but I would be willing to bet that a few people here will be.
 
Portland Sheriff said:
My point wasn’t so much that singer/songwriters of a sort or prog or anything is good/bad. Quite the opposite. Yeah, I have my personal opinions, but they’re mine — completely subjective and dynamic/evolving. Millions of people love those singer/songwriters. I don’t judge or think they’re wrong.

My point was a repugnance of the idea of “knowledgeable” anyone (not you; generally) in the music option/critic world, as if there are objective truths about quality/taste. Granted, there is on exception, and that’s Huey Lewis who, if I believed in God, I’d be certain God’s purpose in creating Huey was to create an exception to prove the rule.

Likewise, “knowledgeable” people who, inexplicably to me, think a 20-minute musical adventure that’s pleasing to the artists is somehow self indulgent, but a whole album about one’s own misery, breakups, etc. isn’t. They both can be self indulgent. More importantly, who give a shit if something is self indulgent?
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I agree, my choice of phrase could have been better. I should have been clearer. As one who was around back in the day - the 70's, albeit very young but hungry for music, I can say - Pablo wasn't a thing. It was considered very old school, and hit cutout bins really fast.

Now, decades later, we can re-evaluate, and in many cases, what might have been dismissed at the time can be seen in a new light.

At the same time, we can take from those who experienced that era first hand about what those deeply involved in the music at that time felt.

Duke Ellington once said 'There's two types of music - good music and bad music'.

Then again, Duke never heard rap or modern country.

IMO, it isn't about self-indulgent, or anything else. It's about the difference between art and commerce.

They can intersect beautifully. But the art has to come first.

With Chad, and others flooding the market with reissues, it is the commerce that comes first.
 
Selaws said:
When it comes to the question of reissues I always go with the viewpoint that if the demand wasn't there, they wouldn't be reissuing them.

I have to admit that I don't know a whole lot about Chad, but I imagine he has enough experience in the industry to be able to know whether a reissue series will be a success or not in terms of sales. If it isn't a success, then I cant imagine he will continue on with it.

I personally have a few Pablo records that I have picked up cheap over the years and although they aren't top tier in terms of my go-to labels, I still enjoy them. I probably wont be picking any of these up, but I would be willing to bet that a few people here will be.
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a. in the 'audiophile world', the release generates the demand. The mastering engineer, the exclusivity, the cover type, the numbering, all the artifacts. Not the other way around. I doubt that anyone was calling Chad begging for Pablo.

b. Chad has tons of experience selling records. He is a great promoter and has a built-in audience/market. He's a blues guy. His knowledge of jazz, and the breadth of his jazz taste/tolerance, is fairly low.

c. Chad goes to the label (Concord) and works with them to determine what they will let him have and what they won't. Example - Fania. Concord determined that they could sell well without a Chad. Pablo they were willing to let go, because they had no plans, and likely felt that on their own sales would not justify reissue. But Chad can, because audiophiles he markets to will buy.

d. Pablo OG's can be had in great condition for cheap. Because few crave them.

e. Audiophiles, and those just getting into the music (often for the glorious sound rather than a desire to search out new musical experiences) tend to buy what 'proven' audiophile labels put in front of them. It is unfortunate that so many simply buy what a label tells them they need, rather than searching for themselves.

Like I said earlier, there are 3 that I am in for. So I'm as much part of the problem as anyone.
 
RHANDMJ said:
I agree, my choice of phrase could have been better. I should have been clearer. As one who was around back in the day - the 70's, albeit very young but hungry for music, I can say - Pablo wasn't a thing. It was considered very old school, and hit cutout bins really fast.

Now, decades later, we can re-evaluate, and in many cases, what might have been dismissed at the time can be seen in a new light.

At the same time, we can take from those who experienced that era first hand about what those deeply involved in the music at that time felt.

Duke Ellington once said 'There's two types of music - good music and bad music'.

Then again, Duke never heard rap or modern country.

IMO, it isn't about self-indulgent, or anything else. It's about the difference between art and commerce.

They can intersect beautifully. But the art has to come first.

With Chad, and others flooding the market with reissues, it is the commerce that comes first.
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Well put
 
Not to be lost in the shuffle is the fact that many of these Pablo reissues were cut probably 10+ years ago by Doug Sax and Stan Ricker before concord pulled the plug. These are the plates used on most of these releases. Some new ones were cut by KG and Matt Lutthansz Many of the previous AP reissues of them go for big money.

And I know many don’t seem to be clamoring for them now but I remember people at Hoffman for years complaining about how bummed they were that the AP Pablo campaign was cut short by Concord
 
RHANDMJ said:
a. in the 'audiophile world', the release generates the demand. The mastering engineer, the exclusivity, the cover type, the numbering, all the artifacts. Not the other way around. I doubt that anyone was calling Chad begging for Pablo.

b. Chad has tons of experience selling records. He is a great promoter and has a built-in audience/market. He's a blues guy. His knowledge of jazz, and the breadth of his jazz taste/tolerance, is fairly low.

c. Chad goes to the label (Concord) and works with them to determine what they will let him have and what they won't. Example - Fania. Concord determined that they could sell well without a Chad. Pablo they were willing to let go, because they had no plans, and likely felt that on their own sales would not justify reissue. But Chad can, because audiophiles he markets to will buy.

d. Pablo OG's can be had in great condition for cheap. Because few crave them.

e. Audiophiles, and those just getting into the music (often for the glorious sound rather than a desire to search out new musical experiences) tend to buy what 'proven' audiophile labels put in front of them. It is unfortunate that so many simply buy what a label tells them they need, rather than searching for themselves.

Like I said earlier, there are 3 that I am in for. So I'm as much part of the problem as anyone.
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"Not the other way around" is a hard position to take and I think it's a bit of both. Sure, some audiophiles will buy a release without a focus on the music but of course, the music plays an important role in that decision-making process. The conversations that I've seen here regarding the Pablo releases are as if there is a consensus that the music isn't good, and it's just not true to some people.

I guess I'm just out of the loop when it comes to Chad and his practices, but surely the more accessibility we have to records within the hobby is only a good thing. We DONT have to buy every release that comes out after all...
 
Selaws said:
"Not the other way around" is a hard position to take and I think it's a bit of both. Sure, some audiophiles will buy a release without a focus on the music but of course, the music plays an important role in that decision-making process. The conversations that I've seen here regarding the Pablo releases are as if there is a consensus that the music isn't good, and it's just not true to some people.

I guess I'm just out of the loop when it comes to Chad and his practices, but surely the more accessibility we have to records within the hobby is only a good thing. We DONT have to buy every release that comes out after all...
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If nobody wanted what Chad is/has been offering, there'd be no motivation for all the scorn directed at him. Human emotion is so complex....
 
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