Pre-Order Thread

Melt Face Molly Drop said:
Less FOMO and more nostalgia coupled with this being the first ever repress, and a limited one at that.

Also, using 'good' as a barometer for Limp Bizkit is obviously going to be subjective.
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The limited repress is FOMO intertwined with nostalgia. It's an interesting thing to dissect, though.

I get that "good" is subjective and maybe it just depends on what the specific appeal is for the individual. If it's all about butthole references and bro-ing out, it is what it is, I guess - I'm definitely not above my own version of dimwitted foolery. If it's all about nostalgia, though, I guess that might depend more on how you experience(d) them musically or culturally at the time you're nostalgic for

I've seen Limp Bizkit -- and, I'd imagine, groups like Bloodhound Gang - try to be framed as the music of rebellious youth and angst, but it seemed no different than the updated hedonism of a band like Warrant singing "Cherry Pie" in a video centered around creepy dudes getting aroused by objectifying some woman. The days of movies like Porkys being socially acceptable might seem less prevalent, but versions of them still exist. Plus, the same year that this album was released, so was the movie American Pie and that was problematic as fuck. I'd even argue it was substantially worse, so it's probably not fair to go in on Limp Bizkit as lowbrow entertainment if you view that as a classic. I was old enough at the time to feel repelled by both of them, but I also have to admit honestly that it's hard for me not to feel connected to something like Revenge Of The Nerds and that, even if it's primarily for the talent show sequence, it's still a really fucked up movie with HUGE equally fucked up issues and messaging, overall.

I'm probably in the minority as someone who has also always viewed Sublime as culture vultures and found issues with songs like "Wrong Way," where Nowell paints himself as some hero for having sex with a 12-year-old that didn't appreciate him, but my view of Limp Bizkit when this album came out is framed by the people around me who listened to it and the culture that surrounded it and was promoted at the time. Obviously, others might have a different experience and were surrounded by something else than I was, so they relate differently and their "nostalgia" is probably different.

I think one concern is that lot of people are nostalgic for time periods and eras that can seem regressive these days. Is the music itself nostalgic or is it the time period and aura it represents? I'm sure that differs in varying degrees and percentages based on the individual. Those of us who flashback to a less positive era/feeling associated with it will view it through a different lens, so it's definitely subjective. I'll just say that I'd expect it to appeal to a lot of people in 2022 for the same negative reasons it might have 20 years ago. That said, nostalgia is also about triggers that remind us of who we were and felt as individuals at certain time periods. Maybe you remember a neighbor bumping "Rollin" in an apartment complex while you played with Lego at a time before your parents got divorced. Who knows?

What I love about the forum is how supportive of everyone else's music tastes everyone is, so I don't want to undermine that. At the same time, I know that certain things can represent something polarizing to different individuals and it's probably fair to acknowledge both sides as valid.
 
Dead C said:
The limited repress is FOMO intertwined with nostalgia. It's an interesting thing to dissect, though.

I get that "good" is subjective and maybe it just depends on what the specific appeal is for the individual. If it's all about butthole references and bro-ing out, it is what it is, I guess - I'm definitely not above my own version of dimwitted foolery. If it's all about nostalgia, though, I guess that might depend more on how you experience(d) them musically or culturally at the time you're nostalgic for

I've seen Limp Bizkit -- and, I'd imagine, groups like Bloodhoubd Gang - try to be framed as the music of rebellious youth and angst, but it seemed no different than the updated hedonism of a band like Warrant singing "Cherry Pie" in a video centered around creepy dudes getting aroused by objectifying some woman. The days of movies like Porkys being socially acceptable might seem less prevalent, but versions of them still exist. Plus, the same year that this album was released, so was the movie American Pie and that was problematic as fuck. I'd even argue it was substantially worse, so it's probably not fair to go in on Limp Bizkit if you view that as a classic. I was old enough at the time to feel repelled by both of them, but I also have to admit honestly that it's hard for me not to feel connected to something like Revenge Of The Nerds and that, even if it's for the talent show sequence, it's still a really fucked up movie with HUGE equally fucked up issues and messaging, overall.

I'm probably in the minority as someone who has also always viewed Sublime as culture vultures and found issues with songs like "Wrong Way," where Nowell paints himself as some hero for having sex with a 12-year-old that didn't appreciate him, but my view of Limp Bizkit when this album came out is framed by the people around me who listened to it and the culture that surrounded it and was promoted at the time. Obviously, others might have a different experience and were surrounded by something else than I was, so they relate differently and their "nostalgia" is probably different.

I think one concern is that lot of people are nostalgic for time periods and eras that can seem regressive these days. Is the music itself nostalgic or is it the time period and aura it represents? I'm sure that differs in varying degrees and percentages based on the individual. Those of us who flashback to a less positive era/feeling associated with it will view it through a different lens, so it's definitely subjective. I'll just say that I'd expect it to appeal to a lot of people in 2022 for the same negative reasons it might have 20 years ago. That said, nostalgia is also about triggers that remind us of who we were and felt as individuals at certain time periods. Maybe you remember a neighbor bumping "Rollin" in an apartment complex while you played with Lego at a time before your parents got divorced. Who knows?

What I love about the forum is how supportive of everyone else's music tastes everyone is, so I don't want to undermine that. At the same time, I know that certain things can represent something polarizing to different individuals and it's probably fair to acknowledge both sides as valid.
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Definitely fair points. I know nostalgia only carries me so far. I can tell I'm from the CD era because I so vividly remember the first 5-7 tracks and then my memory trails off significantly, meaning I likely lost interest at some point.

Limp seems to have seen a bit of a resurgence recently, and I saw them around 2012, when they were at the lowest point (free show), but Wes had just rejoined and the energy was back for the band (and fans). It was a great show, but if I was an outsider that wasn't familiar with the band, I likely wouldn't have cared.

The other thing we can't discount is that this kind of music has helped kids, even adults, get through tough times. And to dismiss that because you or someone else doesn't personally vibe with the lead singer or the style of music, is laughable, especially for those who preach inclusivity (see also: ICP). 10 years ago I would have been that guy dismissing, but I'm all growed up now.

This same discussion can also be applied to popular artists like Taylor Swift, which gets the fun of an added layer of misogyny.
 
Dead C said:
The limited repress is FOMO intertwined with nostalgia. It's an interesting thing to dissect, though.

I get that "good" is subjective and maybe it just depends on what the specific appeal is for the individual. If it's all about butthole references and bro-ing out, it is what it is, I guess - I'm definitely not above my own version of dimwitted foolery. If it's all about nostalgia, though, I guess that might depend more on how you experience(d) them musically or culturally at the time you're nostalgic for

I've seen Limp Bizkit -- and, I'd imagine, groups like Bloodhound Gang - try to be framed as the music of rebellious youth and angst, but it seemed no different than the updated hedonism of a band like Warrant singing "Cherry Pie" in a video centered around creepy dudes getting aroused by objectifying some woman. The days of movies like Porkys being socially acceptable might seem less prevalent, but versions of them still exist. Plus, the same year that this album was released, so was the movie American Pie and that was problematic as fuck. I'd even argue it was substantially worse, so it's probably not fair to go in on Limp Bizkit as lowbrow entertainment if you view that as a classic. I was old enough at the time to feel repelled by both of them, but I also have to admit honestly that it's hard for me not to feel connected to something like Revenge Of The Nerds and that, even if it's primarily for the talent show sequence, it's still a really fucked up movie with HUGE equally fucked up issues and messaging, overall.

I'm probably in the minority as someone who has also always viewed Sublime as culture vultures and found issues with songs like "Wrong Way," where Nowell paints himself as some hero for having sex with a 12-year-old that didn't appreciate him, but my view of Limp Bizkit when this album came out is framed by the people around me who listened to it and the culture that surrounded it and was promoted at the time. Obviously, others might have a different experience and were surrounded by something else than I was, so they relate differently and their "nostalgia" is probably different.

I think one concern is that lot of people are nostalgic for time periods and eras that can seem regressive these days. Is the music itself nostalgic or is it the time period and aura it represents? I'm sure that differs in varying degrees and percentages based on the individual. Those of us who flashback to a less positive era/feeling associated with it will view it through a different lens, so it's definitely subjective. I'll just say that I'd expect it to appeal to a lot of people in 2022 for the same negative reasons it might have 20 years ago. That said, nostalgia is also about triggers that remind us of who we were and felt as individuals at certain time periods. Maybe you remember a neighbor bumping "Rollin" in an apartment complex while you played with Lego at a time before your parents got divorced. Who knows?

What I love about the forum is how supportive of everyone else's music tastes everyone is, so I don't want to undermine that. At the same time, I know that certain things can represent something polarizing to different individuals and it's probably fair to acknowledge both sides as valid.
Click to expand...
I really, really liked Wes Borland as a guitarist -- in 97 or 98 or whenever it was, "$3 Bill Y'all" was fun and the music was entertaining and inventive if not necessarily ground breaking; 8 finger technique and he's got bona fide metal chops, which was not the usual metier for pop metal at the time. Consider the landscape: OK Computer, "electronica", U2's POP, boy bands. No one else in the band is as entertaining or talented as Wes Borland, although everyone other than durst is at least capable on their instrument. durst skated by on notariety and the media tolerating his petulant bullshit and celebrating it.

I mean let's be clear: fuck Fred Durst, twice, forever. He was a jackass then and honestly I don't know if he still is (but I wouldn't be surprised, although the "Dad Vibes" video I saw on youtube suggests he's at least slightly marginally more self-aware and willing to laugh at himself than he was as a young douchebro.) Anyway, not my jam but I don't begrudge anyone that wants to nod their head slightly in time to LB.
 
Melt Face Molly Drop said:
Definitely fair points. I know nostalgia only carries me so far. I can tell I'm from the CD era because I so vividly remember the first 5-7 tracks and then my memory trails off significantly, meaning I likely lost interest at some point.

Limp seems to have seen a bit of a resurgence recently, and I saw them around 2012, when they were at the lowest point (free show), but Wes had just rejoined and the energy was back for the band (and fans). It was a great show, but if I was an outsider that wasn't familiar with the band, I likely wouldn't have cared.

The other thing we can't discount is that this kind of music has helped kids, even adults, get through tough times. And to dismiss that because you or someone else doesn't personally vibe with the lead singer or the style of music, is laughable, especially for those who preach inclusivity (see also: ICP). 10 years ago I would have been that guy dismissing, but I'm all growed up now.

This same discussion can also be applied to popular artists like Taylor Swift, which gets the fun of an added layer of misogyny.
Click to expand...

Plus, Limp Bizkit is as much about a vibe as anything, while films like American Pie and Revenge Of The Nerds, which directly promote sexual assault and filming women without their consent, don't receive nearly as much pushback. I'm sure a lot of people just feel this band is "douchie."

I love Ween, but if the listener doesn't absorb the tone or jokey nature in some of their lyrics, maybe that's not the bands fault and maybe it's not Limp Bizkit's either. I really don't know. License To Ill was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek, but wound up appealing to a bunch of misogynistic bros that didn't "get it." Now, Ad Rock is married to Kathleen Hanna who continues to comment on how that era of the Beastie Boys was not fucking cool, how it felt oppressive to her as a woman and that it informed her art. There are a lot of layers to all of it.

As for getting through "tough times," though, that isn't as cut and dry to me. White Nationalists have based their recruiting numbers on reaching out and exploiting the feelings of disaffected youth forever, so that premise isn't necessarily redeeming in and of itself. Validating individuals is one thing, but validating particular ideologies to accomplish that may not be. If what you're feeding into to provide a culture of inclusion for one group has the inherent potential to negatively ripple into other groups, that's not necessarily a good thing. Again, I'm not necessarily claiming Limp Bizkit do any of this at all - I've never taken a deep dive into their catalog, lore, or band manifesto - I'm just questioning the criteria of what makes something "positive" or gives it value, in general.

For example, I can bond with my bros based around archaic destructive concepts regarding anything, but if I'm only thinking about how it affects me while disregarding its effect on others, my personal feelings aren't all that matters. And maybe that's the connecting thread here, that attitude that you can do whatever the fuck you want, everyone else be damned. It can definitely be an empowering concept, but that also depends on what "whatever the fuck you want" to do is as an individual. Then we get into power dynamics and if your rebellion is against oppressive systems, or actually against systems limiting your own oppressive nature and repercussions toward others. Mobs of young unrestrained whites dudes taking what they want with a fuck you attitude can be less appealing to some of us who do not fit firmly within that demographic.

As for Taylor Swift, my personal reaction to her has always been to view her a rich and powerful figure. I've even felt that she gained a lot of support and sympathy as a white woman/victim attacked by a "savage" black man; a narrative she may have exploited at times. As a concert photographer, I've also found issues with her that I've felt were exploitative and hypocritical as someone championed as some hero of the people. On the other hand, my younger sister, who has a different father than I do, is a white woman that just loves that T-Swift music. We get along great and I respect her endlessly, as she, like all the fans I've come across in here, isn't visibly part of the bloodthirsty social media mob of Swifties swarming like reckless killer bees toward any minor criticism. As a Phish fan, I'm fully aware that the most vocal and visible in any hardcore fanbase are often terrible representations overall. My sister knows I'm not a fan of Taylor Swift and knows why, but I'll listen while she tell me all kinds of shit about how her new album jacket variants make up a clock when combined or whatever the fuck, just like she listens to the boring shit I spew on about. I assume she just loves the music, but if there is something in there that she feels is empowering to her as a woman, I support that 100%. I watched my wife cry when the women superheroes came together in End Game and recognize the importance of those elements when they are represented. Then again, that deals with the ideas of liberation and power dynamics. As a brown man who, among endless other situations, has been randomly grabbed on the street and had racial slurs yelled in their face by a strange white woman, and am familiar with the history of events like Emmett Till, read To Kill A Mockingbird in Junior High, and welcomed the "Karen" trope with widespread arms as something equalizing that was long overdue... this is basically a game of oppression rock, paper, scissors. What weighs each of us down or holds us back can look as different as the reasons we gravitate toward something or are repelled by it.
 
yukbon said:
I really, really liked Wes Borland as a guitarist -- in 97 or 98 or whenever it was, "$3 Bill Y'all" was fun and the music was entertaining and inventive if not necessarily ground breaking; 8 finger technique and he's got bona fide metal chops, which was not the usual metier for pop metal at the time. Consider the landscape: OK Computer, "electronica", U2's POP, boy bands. No one else in the band is as entertaining or talented as Wes Borland, although everyone other than durst is at least capable on their instrument. durst skated by on notariety and the media tolerating his petulant bullshit and celebrating it.

I mean let's be clear: fuck Fred Durst, twice, forever. He was a jackass then and honestly I don't know if he still is (but I wouldn't be surprised, although the "Dad Vibes" video I saw on youtube suggests he's at least slightly marginally more self-aware and willing to laugh at himself than he was as a young douchebro.) Anyway, not my jam but I don't begrudge anyone that wants to nod their head slightly in time to LB.
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Melt Face Molly Drop said:
Also completely random that Fred directed this The Education of Charlie Banks (2007) - IMDb
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I definitely think he's willing to laugh at himself. Years ago, he participated in a Funny Or Die video where Nick Kroll and Jon Daily played douchie detectives called The Ed Hardy Boys. The video was titled The Case of When That Hot Filipina Girl Lost Her Tramp Stamp at Mini-Golf and he played himself.


m.imdb.com

Ed Hardy Boyz 2: The Case of When That Hot Filipina Girl Lost Her Tramp Stamp at Mini-Golf (Short 2011) - IMDb

Ed Hardy Boyz 2: The Case of When That Hot Filipina Girl Lost Her Tramp Stamp at Mini-Golf: Directed by Jonathan Krisel. With Nick Kroll, Jon Daly, Christian Audigier, Owen Burke.
m.imdb.com m.imdb.com
 
Dead C said:
....As for Taylor Swift, my personal reaction to her has always been to view her a rich and powerful figure. I've even felt that she gained a lot of support and sympathy as a white woman/victim attacked by a "savage" black man; a narrative she may have exploited at times. As a concert photographer, I've also found issues with her that I've felt were exploitative and hypocritical as someone championed as some hero of the people. On the other hand, my younger sister, who has a different father than I do, is a white woman that just loves that T-Swift music. We get along great and I respect her endlessly, as she, like all the fans I've come across in here, isn't visibly part of the bloodthirsty social media mob of Swifties swarming like reckless killer bees toward any minor criticism. As a Phish fan, I'm fully aware that the most vocal and visible in any hardcore fanbase are often terrible representations overall. My sister knows I'm not a fan of Taylor Swift and knows why, but I'll listen while she tell me all kinds of shit about how her new album jacket variants make up a clock when combined or whatever the fuck, just like she listens to the boring shit I spew on about. I assume she just loves the music, but if there is something in there that she feels is empowering to her as a woman, I support that 100%. I watched my wife cry when the women superheroes came together in End Game and recognize the importance of those elements when they are represented. Then again, that deals with the ideas of liberation and power dynamics. As a brown man who, among endless other situations, has been randomly grabbed on the street and had racial slurs yelled in their face by a strange white woman, and am familiar with the history of events like Emmett Till, read To Kill A Mockingbird in Junior High, and welcomed the "Karen" trope with widespread arms as something equalizing that was long overdue... this is basically a game of oppression rock, paper, scissors. What weighs each of us down or holds us back can look as different as the reasons we gravitate toward something or are repelled by it.
Click to expand...
Well said.
 
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