sad, beautiful, tragic: the n&g taylor swift thread

gaporter said:
I like the back cover and the color of the "in the weeds" variant but for me I mostly enjoy when the record color matches the album art. I'm thinking if I own a combo of the gray variant and the clandestine meetings cover that would be a perfect match for me. So that's my rationale for my choices haha

As for hide and seek, I just like that picture
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I'd say sleep on it, but to me it reads as get clandestine and then get the grey variant... We've done franken copies of records before
 
debianlinux said:
Anyone who knows my tastes knows that Taylor is basically just acceptably fine and folk music is mostly my jam. To that end, I'll just go on record as saying she should just go back to being above board pop instead of acting like she's some new gift to folk music. I've made it to track 6 on folklore and this is some bland ass boring pseudo-folk pop music. I saw a recent article comapring her to Fiona and Jess Williamson. If it weren't for that article I would not have likely even bothered listening but here I am and I can say that is a complete insult to those fine artists. Nothing about this approaches the folk mastery Jess beings to the table. I couldn't find the hot take thread so I figured this one would have to serve.
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I think the problem is in calling it "folk". I've gone on record as saying I like it (~7/10 for me) and don't really know anything outside a couple of her hits. But I enjoyed it.

However, if I was primed with the idea that it is a "folk" album then I'd prob be eyerolling too. Okay, I see the term "indie folk" and "electro-folk" thrown around, but let's not infinitely divide that nut.

With that said, it doesn't mean you still can't not enjoy it. Just throwin that out there regarding this nebulous term "genre". I only read one review and I don't remember seeing any comparisons to other artists - female or otherwise - but I'm sure they exist. FWIW - since you mentioned her - Fiona and TS are in different leagues. They are both obviously master songwriters, but Fiona is consistently without calculation and a craftswoman for the sake of the craft. But luckily we've a lot of hours in the day to listen to a lot of music.

Also, not a hot take....threads devoted to artists should be for both positive and negative reactions. We wouldn't want it to devolve to a stan echo chamber after all.
 
Lord Diaper Baby said:
Also, not a hot take....threads devoted to artists should be for both positive and negative reactions. We wouldn't want it to devolve to a stan echo chamber after all.
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You are correct. I apologize to @debianlinux in that respect. The post read to me as not inviting much discussion and just being overtly negative about the project, but that's my own fault. I try to be welcoming of differences of opinion when it comes to music and it shouldn't matter if I have an issue with the way the opinion was "delivered."

I'll make it clear I'm not even that big of a Taylor stan. I enjoy her music, yes, and I also think she gets large amounts of hate she doesn't necessarily deserve. In response to the post @debianlinux made, I take issue with the assessment that she is acting like "she's some new gift to folk music." I haven't gotten that vibe from her and I don't think she's pretending this record is supposed to usher in some new age of folk music. Why can't it just be an album by an artist who wanted to make that album? Why do we have to doubt that Taylor made the music because it's just what she wanted to do, why does it have to be her proclaiming to be the queen of folk? You can not like the album, it certainly has its problems, but that seems less of a criticism of the music and more a shot at Taylor herself for something you've put in her mouth. You saw an article that compared her to other artists but she didn't make those comparisons. And even more to the point, why does she have to be compared to other female folk artists? Taylor Swift made a folk album, sure, but it's still a Taylor Swift album, why go into it expecting an indie masterpiece? I hate modern music discourse for this very reason, publications feel the need to drill in an idea this is somehow Taylor's "indie" album. Why? Because Bon Iver and some dudes from the National are on it? Taylor may have been going for a more "indie" sound but I don't believe for a second she intended her album to be compared to something like fucking Fiona Apple. And I definitely don't buy she was trying to get indie cred from indie snobs who clamor over the National. Maybe I'm just naive enough to think that music doesn't have to be made because it's some sort of chess move and that it's just the music an artist wanted to make.
 
gaporter said:
You are correct. I apologize to @debianlinux in that respect. The post read to me as not inviting much discussion and just being overtly negative about the project, but that's my own fault. I try to be welcoming of differences of opinion when it comes to music and it shouldn't matter if I have an issue with the way the opinion was "delivered."

I'll make it clear I'm not even that big of a Taylor stan. I enjoy her music, yes, and I also think she gets large amounts of hate she doesn't necessarily deserve. In response to the post @debianlinux made, I take issue with the assessment that she is acting like "she's some new gift to folk music." I haven't gotten that vibe from her and I don't think she's pretending this record is supposed to usher in some new age of folk music. Why can't it just be an album by an artist who wanted to make that album? Why do we have to doubt that Taylor made the music because it's just what she wanted to do, why does it have to be her proclaiming to be the queen of folk? You can not like the album, it certainly has its problems, but that seems less of a criticism of the music and more a shot at Taylor herself for something you've put in her mouth. You saw an article that compared her to other artists but she didn't make those comparisons. And even more to the point, why does she have to be compared to other female folk artists? Taylor Swift made a folk album, sure, but it's still a Taylor Swift album, why go into it expecting an indie masterpiece? I hate modern music discourse for this very reason, publications feel the need to drill in an idea this is somehow Taylor's "indie" album. Why? Because Bon Iver and some dudes from the National are on it? Taylor may have been going for a more "indie" sound but I don't believe for a second she intended her album to be compared to something like fucking Fiona Apple. And I definitely don't buy she was trying to get indie cred from indie snobs who clamor over the National. Maybe I'm just naive enough to think that music doesn't have to be made because it's some sort of chess move and that it's just the music an artist wanted to make.
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TBF, I have no idea where Taylor, the person lands on this. I do know where all the press is going with it and she's certainly not speaking out against any misrepresentation of her intentions. She's free to make whatever music she cares to and name her albums whatever she likes. I agree that the comparisons are firstly ill conceived and secondly detracting from her as a whole (especially considering the first point). The main thing I am disagreeing in this post are the very words "taylor made a folk album". That certainly seems to be the message she intended and it is the message being propagated without her making any visible attempt to resteer it. I'm here to argue that she did not in fact make any sort of folk album. There a re minute traces of folk within it but it is essentially a subdued pop ballad record (invisible string is the only song that even begins to try to mimic actual folkness and even there it falls pretty short).

This is a person who has probably the highest profile of online followership of probably any other single artist in music. Can she speak for herself? As of right now I would say her silence is acquiescence.
 
debianlinux said:
TBF, I have no idea where Taylor, the person lands on this. I do know where all the press is going with it and she's certainly not speaking out against any misrepresentation of her intentions. She's free to make whatever music she cares to and name her albums whatever she likes. I agree that the comparisons are firstly ill conceived and secondly detracting from her as a whole (especially considering the first point). The main thing I am disagreeing in this post are the very words "taylor made a folk album". That certainly seems to be the message she intended and it is the message being propagated without her making any visible attempt to resteer it. I'm here to argue that she did not in fact make any sort of folk album. There a re minute traces of folk within it but it is essentially a subdued pop ballad record (invisible string is the only song that even begins to try to mimic actual folkness and even there it falls pretty short).

This is a person who has probably the highest profile of online followership of probably any other single artist in music. Can she speak for herself? As of right now I would say her silence is acquiescence.
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At this point I think she's smart enough to let her record do all the speaking that's necessary. Folk, not folk, pop, not pop, honestly, why would anyone really give a fuck?
 
debianlinux said:
TBF, I have no idea where Taylor, the person lands on this. I do know where all the press is going with it and she's certainly not speaking out against any misrepresentation of her intentions. She's free to make whatever music she cares to and name her albums whatever she likes. I agree that the comparisons are firstly ill conceived and secondly detracting from her as a whole (especially considering the first point). The main thing I am disagreeing in this post are the very words "taylor made a folk album". That certainly seems to be the message she intended and it is the message being propagated without her making any visible attempt to resteer it. I'm here to argue that she did not in fact make any sort of folk album. There a re minute traces of folk within it but it is essentially a subdued pop ballad record (invisible string is the only song that even begins to try to mimic actual folkness and even there it falls pretty short).

This is a person who has probably the highest profile of online followership of probably any other single artist in music. Can she speak for herself? As of right now I would say her silence is acquiescence.
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I guess that's fair. I don't take fans and critics' opinions on the artist's work with a lot of weight, usually only if it comes straight from the artist's mouth do I pay it much mind and even then, the way I consume music is largely listening and judging purely by what's communicated through the album alone. But this debate speaks more to a difference in approach I feel. I'm not one to really get caught up in definitions of genres or what it means to be "indie" and that's really the main discourse I've seen regarding this album, so unsurprisingly I end up tuning out from that discourse quite a bit. But i understand where you're coming from and I respect your stance even if it's not really one I can relate to. And again apologies for dismissing your earlier post, that was wrong of me to do.
 
Just to be perfectly clear, I'm moseying along and hear that Taylor dropped an album. I find that fact alone interesting but I'm probably not going to listen unless someone gave me a really good reason. Then a few days later, I am seeing comparisons to artists that, as has been stated, are in different leagues, some of which are doing real folk with pop sensibilities thrown in. Now my interest is keenly piqued because this is that real good reason I mentioned. Maybe Taylor has really outdone herself here, maybe we're going to see something really moving and innovating. Coming into from that mindset left a supremely bad taste in my mouth.

Taylor is possibly the best at doing that thing she does where she is just Taylor Swift the person, the product, the music. I just hope that doesn't include being disingenuous about what her music even is. She apparently set a new record for most first day streams. Good for her if she earned it without duping people which is exactly how I feel about my relationship to it.
 
debianlinux said:
Just to be perfectly clear, I'm moseying along and hear that Taylor dropped an album. I find that fact alone interesting but I'm probably not going to listen unless someone gave me a really good reason. Then a few days later, I am seeing comparisons to artists that, as has been stated, are in different leagues, some of which are doing real folk with pop sensibilities thrown in. Now my interest is keenly piqued because this is that real good reason I mentioned. Maybe Taylor has really outdone herself here, maybe we're going to see something really moving and innovating. Coming into from that mindset left a supremely bad taste in my mouth.

Taylor is possibly the best at doing that thing she does where she is just Taylor Swift the person, the product, the music. I just hope that doesn't include being disingenuous about what her music even is. She apparently set a new record for most first day streams. Good for her if she earned it without duping people which is exactly how I feel about my relationship to it.
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I hear that, and I do think it is unfortunate to be, or to feel misled into a listening experience, and I definitely understand how that can color one's view towards the music. As for the idea she's duping people, I guess that's where I'd find it more difficult to understand where you're coming from. For one thing, the wide availability of the album on streaming services means that anyone who subscribes to those services can listen to her music without paying directly for it, so in effect, there's no cost. Even if we allow for the potential for being duped, with no cost to that beyond the time it takes to listen, I don't know what might have been gained (meaning I don't see that there would be any motivation). And relatedly, the notion that Taylor Swift (or any artist, but especially one who attracts so much attention) should respond to any particular review, reviewer, categorization of her music, etc., for the sake of "clarifying" her intentions strikes me as absurd. She has no control over that stuff, and trying to control it would only exacerbate the problems in the long run. Also, she didn't title her record "My Folk Album," she titled it 'folklore,' which is basically about storytelling, and in that sense a pretty accurate title for the record.

I think it sucks you were duped into listening to folklore and from what you've described, that's on those who wrote what you read, not the artist.
 
I think the way people talk about albums informs how we go into them. Fortunately, I went into Folklore not reading anything other than Taylor's own words beforehand. I could see if my expectations were somewhere else and then the album let me down. I mean that happens all the time. I feel a similar thing could have happened with Fiona Apple's Fetch The Bolt Cutters. All the immense praise thrown at it within its first hours of release can set you up for something you may not end up getting. Though lets be real, FTBC is incredible ;)

Folklore elevates Taylor's songwriting and process, and shows a natural evolution of her sound. Is it redefining the genre? Is it swiping into another genre to take on new listeners? I don't think so. I don't see her intentions being that way. I genuinely feel she wanted to make a more somber, subdued album, and that's exactly what she did. Isn't it interesting that Taylor's intentions are constantly talked about when it comes to her music? And yet I don't see the same conversations happening with other artists. People have this preconceived notion of who Taylor Swift is and they bring that baggage with them if they choose to listen to her albums or even choose to simply talk about her albums.


I'm not throwing accusations at anyone on here, more so other places online the comment section on Stereogum.
 
All those variants will certainly help with chart placings. Anyway, it’s a good album that I’ve played through twice. Someone persuade me to buy one
 
Well I caved and bought a second version. The stress of them all being gone after today got to me. For my second copy, I got Meet Me Behind The Mall. Love the cover.

Also she is now selling an alternate version of Cardigan on cd, 7”, and 12”.

store.taylorswift.com

Taylor Swift Official Online Store

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