The Dark Side; Digital audio equipment recommendations and setup.

SnowmaNick said:
Random and potentially useless factoid. The Eversolo DMP-A6 is capable of 768kHz PCM if you use the internal DAC and are not using Roon. If using Roon for upscaling you will notice it caps out at 384kHz for PCM. I was curious why so I did a little Google surfing and Eversolo confirmed they felt it wasn’t stable at 768K, so they only got it certified with Roon to 384k.

But…. Roon will allow DSD512, which is unstable as hell on the A6. Go figure.

Anyway, if anyone else has or is looking or thinking of getting an A6 and has 768k PCM files it will downsample them to 384k. It’s not just in your head.

And now back to Bob in the studio with this weeks weather.
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This sounds like something folks in Audio Science Review forum would get upset about.
 
SnowmaNick said:
Probably, while at the same time saying upsampling was useless and Redbook 16/44.1 is all anyone ever needs. Science!
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I have some sympathy for the 16/44.1 argument, I’m finding that my CDs, mastering being equal, sound better than any streaming. The fancier CD transport may play into that. Part of me does think that crazy sample rates (384/786 and DSD256/512) are more for recording engineers in the vein of you want to capture everything initially but then it’s ok to take away some of the stuff that can’t be heard in the mastering..
 
Joe Mac said:
I have some sympathy for the 16/44.1 argument, I’m finding that my CDs, mastering being equal, sound better than any streaming. The fancier CD transport may play into that. Part of me does think that crazy sample rates (384/786 and DSD256/512) are more for recording engineers in the vein of you want to capture everything initially but then it’s ok to take away some of the stuff that can’t be heard in the mastering..
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Most of the 16/44.1 stuff I’ve compared sounds better on cd. I have no way of knowing mastering unless I own the same release (“2022 remaster”).

I can tell you from playing with HD Bluetooth and HD streaming that what ever is lost may not be detail you hear notes and instruments, but there is a loss of space and staging when the not “audible” data is thrown out. It’s slight but consistent.

I’ve also noticed that mastering is just as varied if not more on CDs as it is vinyl.
 
Joe Mac said:
I have some sympathy for the 16/44.1 argument, I’m finding that my CDs, mastering being equal, sound better than any streaming. The fancier CD transport may play into that. Part of me does think that crazy sample rates (384/786 and DSD256/512) are more for recording engineers in the vein of you want to capture everything initially but then it’s ok to take away some of the stuff that can’t be heard in the mastering..
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The Jays Audio may be doing some work for you. The Audiolab 6000CDT going to my Pontus II is behind, sonically, the Roon/Eversolo/Aries/I2S rips of the same CD (literally). It could be the Aries DDC of the Eversolo’s USB out and converting it to I2S and that the Pontus prefers, or Roon upsampling, but the rips sound better. More relaxed, less glare and digital edge, calmer/better musical flow.
 
Lee Newman said:
Most of the 16/44.1 stuff I’ve compared sounds better on cd. I have no way of knowing mastering unless I own the same release (“2022 remaster”).

I can tell you from playing with HD Bluetooth and HD streaming that what ever is lost may not be detail you hear notes and instruments, but there is a loss of space and staging when the not “audible” data is thrown out. It’s slight but consistent.

I’ve also noticed that mastering is just as varied if not more on CDs as it is vinyl.
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Mastering is a crap shoot for sure. Especially with DDD release's in the 80’s/90’s or the massive compression of the early 2000’s.
 
SnowmaNick said:
The Jays Audio may be doing some work for you. The Audiolab 6000CDT going to my Pontus II is behind, sonically, the Roon/Eversolo/Aries/I2S rips of the same CD (literally). It could be the Aries DDC of the Eversolo’s USB out and converting it to I2S and that the Pontus prefers, or Roon upsampling, but the rips sound better. More relaxed, less glare and digital edge, calmer/better musical flow.
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It is a fantastic transport, light years ahead of what I had before. I did get a really nice musical fidelity streamer too which while pretty much functionally useless in a lot of ways does sound fantastic when you use it as a roon endpoint and go nowhere near its own awful oem of Volumio.

I find the discs give me less digital fatigue. Interestingly enough I absolutely cannot hear any difference between the Jays outputting 44.1 or upsampling to 176.4
 
Joe Mac said:
It is a fantastic transport, light years ahead of what I had before. I did get a really nice musical fidelity streamer too which while pretty much functionally useless in a lot of ways does sound fantastic when you use it as a roon endpoint and go nowhere near its own awful oem of Volumio.

I find the discs give me less digital fatigue. Interestingly enough I absolutely cannot hear any difference between the Jays outputting 44.1 or upsampling to 176.4
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I’ve thought about eventually replacing my Audiolab with a Jay’s CDT2-MK III or a CEC TL-5, but listening to CD is such a small percentage of my overall listening it’s hard to justify. (Which is saying a lot for me, as I like acquiring and playing with new audio gear).

It’s almost a chicken and egg thing though. I don’t listen to CD’s much, so why get a better transport. Maybe if I had a better transport I’d listen to CD’s more. It sucks being in my brain.
 
SnowmaNick said:
I’ve thought about eventually replacing my Audiolab with a Jay’s CDT2-MK III or a CEC TL-5, but listening to CD is such a small percentage of my overall listening it’s hard to justify. (Which is saying a lot for me, as I like acquiring and playing with new audio gear).

It’s almost a chicken and egg thing though. I don’t listen to CD’s much, so why get a better transport. Maybe if I had a better transport I’d listen to CD’s more. It sucks being in my brain.
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It made more sense for me for a few reasons. I started with CDs and in some ways vinyl was my insanity moving to a new medium and buying so much that I already owned. I reached a point where space, money and my sanity couldn’t have me keep doing that and so I wanted to get the most out of my 600 odd CDs that I hadn’t replaced or moved on. It’s streaming that I use rarely at home, that’s mostly a car or a headphones on the go only thing. That why I splurged on the CD2-Mk3. For a more casual listener with a smaller collection I don’t know if that investment is worthwhile.
 
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SnowmaNick said:
It’s almost a chicken and egg thing though. I don’t listen to CD’s much, so why get a better transport. Maybe if I had a better transport I’d listen to CD’s more. It sucks being in my brain.
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Similar situation to you. I simply don’t have enough CDs to warrant buying a nicer CD transport. And if I did buy a nicer one, I just don’t think I’d suddenly start a big CD collection.

I like having my inconvenient way to listen to music (vinyl) and my convenient way (roon/streaming). I don’t need a second inconvenient way haha
 
Joe Mac said:
It made more sense for me for a few reasons. I started with CDs and in some ways vinyl was my insanity moving to a new medium and buying so much that I already owned. I reached a point where space, money and my sanity couldn’t have me keep doing that and so I wanted to get the most out of my 600 odd CDs that I hadn’t replaced or moved on. It’s streaming that I use rarely at home, that’s mostly a car or a headphones on the go only thing. That why I splurged on the CD2-Mk3. For a more casual listener with a smaller collection I don’t know if that investment is worthwhile.
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I have a 35 year CD collection but only a 10 year vinyl collection. Most of my digital listening is via CD; I’ve continually owned a CD player since high school. In the past 15 years, I have owned three CD players that I have used as transports with external DACs and I’ve never heard a reliable difference between the transports. I’ve also owned 3 DACs in that timeframe, so I’ve had opportunity to mix and match.

The difference between my turntables and phonos has been much, much greater than between the transports and DACs.
 
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Angsty said:
I have a 35 year CD collection but only a 10 year vinyl collection. Most of my digital listening is via CD; I’ve continually have owned a CD player since high school. In the past 15 years, I have owned three CD players that I have used as transports with external DACs and I’ve never heard a reliable difference between the transports. I’ve also owned 3 DACs in that timeframe, so I’ve had opportunity to mix and match.

The difference between my turntables and phonos has been much, much greater than between the transports and DACs.
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Out of curiosity, which DACs? Did you try out R2R or were they all delta-sigma?
 
Angsty said:
I have a 35 year CD collection but only a 10 year vinyl collection. Most of my digital listening is via CD; I’ve continually have owned a CD player since high school. In the past 15 years, I have owned three CD players that I have used as transports with external DACs and I’ve never heard a reliable difference between the transports. I’ve also owned 3 DACs in that timeframe, so I’ve had opportunity to mix and match.

The difference between my turntables and phonos has been much, much greater than between the transports and DACs.
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I ripped my 30 plus year CD collection (1500 +/-) to FLAC years ago and got rid of the CDs. I haven't looked back. I didn't notice any difference in sound quality at the time, but I also didn't have the kind of resolving gear I have now. I sometimes wish I had kept some of the CDs, but like @MikeH I prefer my inconvenient listening to come from vinyl.
 
SnowmaNick said:
Out of curiosity, which DACs? Did you try out R2R or were they all delta-sigma?
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Yes, all three DACs have been delta-sigma types: Bryson BP-25DA, Topping D70s and Schiit Modi 3. This is aside from the internal DACs in the CD players.

I’ve never owned a R2R DAC as they tend to have less linearity and more noise with greater cost. The linearity issue is key, since having less low-level linearity tends to add artifacts to the reproduction that are not accurate to the recording. Some people might prefer that output but I wouldn’t.
 
Angsty said:
Yes, all three DACs have been delta-sigma types: Bryson BP-25DA, Topping D70s and Schiit Modi 3. This is aside from the internal DACs in the CD players.

I’ve never owned a R2R DAC as they tend to have less linearity and more noise with greater cost. The linearity issue is key, since having less low-level linearity tends to add artifacts to the reproduction that are not accurate to the recording. Some people might prefer that output but I wouldn’t.
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I just picked up an R2R DAC, the Cayin RU7, to use primarily with headphones and IEMs. My initial impressions are very positive. I've been listening with my LCD-X headphones and IE 600 IEMs today and am up way past my bedtime listening and writing in this forum.

The RU7 has enough power to drive the planar LCD-X (balanced out) and has all the audiophile goodies. Bass, clarity, imaging, depth of sound, layering. I'm really impressed. It's a definite improvement over the Earmen Eagle (ESS chip) I have been using as a dongle DAC for the past couple of years. The Eagle is good, but at 2x the price the RU7 justifies its price premium.
 
Angsty said:
Yes, all three DACs have been delta-sigma types: Bryson BP-25DA, Topping D70s and Schiit Modi 3. This is aside from the internal DACs in the CD players.

I’ve never owned a R2R DAC as they tend to have less linearity and more noise with greater cost. The linearity issue is key, since having less low-level linearity tends to add artifacts to the reproduction that are not accurate to the recording. Some people might prefer that output but I wouldn’t.
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I hear you. I’ve seen measurements for both, although some recent R2R measure quite well.
I find that I prefer R2R to Delta Sigma. Along the lines of valves and vinyl, measurements don’t always align with my preferences.
I find the differences between R2R and DS more noticeable than between, say, AKM vs ESS chipsets. If you can, I suggest at least auditioning different topologies the next time you find yourself in the market.
 
Angsty said:
I have a 35 year CD collection but only a 10 year vinyl collection. Most of my digital listening is via CD; I’ve continually owned a CD player since high school. In the past 15 years, I have owned three CD players that I have used as transports with external DACs and I’ve never heard a reliable difference between the transports. I’ve also owned 3 DACs in that timeframe, so I’ve had opportunity to mix and match.

The difference between my turntables and phonos has been much, much greater than between the transports and DACs.
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Yeah I’ve been collecting both for almost identical periods. A couple of years less on the CDs, 32, and a year more on the vinyl, 11. I’ve had some form of CD playback since Christmas 92 when I got my first CD player and we’d had one in the house since mid 91.

I’ve only had one table, but changed carts and added a phono in place of an original in-built and I’d agree that the changes are much less subtle. However, fhere was an absolute change from my old Sony SACD player connected over coax and the Jays connected with I2S, it had me grabbing CDs off my shelf with much more regularly than before.

It also had the other benefits of being built like a tank and using a top loading transport that I could pretty easily source a replacement and change out myself if anything ever went wrong with it.
 
SnowmaNick said:
I hear you. I’ve seen measurements for both, although some recent R2R measure quite well.
I find that I prefer R2R to Delta Sigma. Along the lines of valves and vinyl, measurements don’t always align with my preferences.
I find the differences between R2R and DS more noticeable than between, say, AKM vs ESS chipsets. If you can, I suggest at least auditioning different topologies the next time you find yourself in the market.
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I love my Denafrips Ares and did notice a difference between that and any other built in DACs using chips and my Singxer DAC. I agree that measurements may look good on paper but then i sometimes don’t like the sound in my room and on my system. I can’t say I’ve noticed any more noise on it.
 
MikeH said:
I love my Denafrips Ares and did notice a difference between that and any other built in DACs using chips and my Singxer DAC. I agree that measurements may look good on paper but then i sometimes don’t like the sound in my room and on my system. I can’t say I’ve noticed any more noise on it.
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The Denafrips actually measured pretty good, so you are good on paper and real life! I have heard a couple of the DCS offerings- Bartok and the next model up. The Bartok sounded alright when using a hard drive for a source but for some reason sounded very “harsh” when streaming. The next model up seem to mostly “fix” the issue when streaming. Cost was astronomical and way more than I personally would ever consider spending on my digital playback.
 
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