The N&G Science Discussion Thread

I have some speakers coming in today to discuss ecosystem services, natural capital and equity.
Don't know if anyone else is interested in this stuff but here's an international panel that one of the speakers participated in. There's some good info here:

 
@Teeeee brings up something I'm more focused on now in my current job - How to better communicate technical information to the people that make decisions?

So I think a lot about what people need to know, what their fears are, what good graphic design means, and how do we design studies to incorporate the socioeconomic factors that drive our behaviors... Also I'm tired of being frustrated that the world doesn't value science or the numbers or the physical laws that govern their existence.
I swear that I've basically made my career off of communicating technical info to people who don't have technical backgrounds. Most of what I do is in population health, so I geek out on things like the Pew institute research and CDC reports. I stumbled on this a little while ago and it's so fun:

Also, I have said it before and will keep on saying TWIV--this week in virology--podcast is the best and most nerdy thing out there. It's such a great podcast.
 
So what does the end look like? What does the climate change disaster that we, as humans, seem to be unwilling to halt, look like?

Specifically - what does it look like to you and me? @jaycee - you are a very intelligent guy who I am sure has thought of this. What do you think?
 
So what does the end look like? What does the climate change disaster that we, as humans, seem to be unwilling to halt, look like?

Specifically - what does it look like to you and me? @jaycee - you are a very intelligent guy who I am sure has thought of this. What do you think?

Let me preface this by saying I'm not an atmospheric, carbon, or climate scientist, nor am I a physicist, chemist. I have training in these areas but its not my job.

The short answer is nobody knows for sure. There is no crystal ball, but we have lots of good data (observations) over long periods of time, that allow us to reasonably estimate what's more or less likely to occur in the future.

There are models that allow where past and current atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations , along with atmospheric mixing and circulation, and various future carbon dioxide scenarios are inputs. The scenarios are things like business as usual, reduction of some %, increases of some %. Then the model produces a range of reasonable future atmospheric CO2 scenarios. Those outputs can then by applied to other models estimating things like weather, ice loss at the poles, sea level rise. Sociologist and Economists also use this data and information to understand how these earth outcomes impact people's lives.

What does it look like for you and me? We can't model everybody's life and it really does depend on where you live, what your ability to withstand economic downturns is, your ability to move or escape natural disasters. What I think is reasonable to say is wherever you live weather is going to be more variable, things will be warmer on average with more 90+ degree days, nights will be warmer (winter nights in particular). If you live near the ocean. It's rising and will continue to do so. Food chains will be disrupted as brackish environments (breeding grounds) are changed and humans will have to move and change their infrastructure. The poorest people in the world will of course be the most impacted and the most desperate. What happens exactly in Maryland vs. Minnesota vs. Arizona, vs. Mississippi vs. New Deli, or Dublin, or Sao Paolo requires lots of local study, which there isn't much money being distributed to do.

My personal feeling / belief - and I think the evidence points to this - is that the fossil carbon / fuel faucet wasn't addressed in a timely manner. We've known about this for at least 30 years and because human decision making is short term (the next fiscal year or political cycle) and the global economic and political power structure require the intensive use of natural resources to "fuel" their profits some people will lose their lives. I'm simultaneously not particularly worried more than the general terror that is pervasive in our daily lives in today's world causes me.

There is awareness among those that don't want to lie to themselves. There is potential that a very profitable economy emerges based on the need to address these problems. Humans usually have a pretty strong will to live. So I'm somewhat optimistic that there will be an evolution that allows us to do so. That being said, our lives - more accurately the lives of people 50, 100, 200, 300 years in the future will have been completely altered by our choices now. People's lives are being altered right now, and I still fully expect every last drop of fossil carbon to be used. I sort of wish we would just burn it all right now, today, this second so that we can get it over with and deal with the consequences.

What I imagine is that there will be a climate refugee issue in every country. First in the poorest places, but even in the U.S. I hope that ocean food chains are not so disrupted that they collapse, that ocean circulation is not irrevocably altered, and that there is enough water to grow enough crops, and enough relatively clean water to drink. If those systems completely collapse then it's going to be very very difficult for humans to survive. Even if those things don't completely collapse there will almost certainly be conflicts about them because without them economies collapse... and as long as we continue to view ourselves as part of whatever political boundary (our neighborhood, city, or country) we are not thinking in the way that is required to prevent those systems from collapsing.

Here is a useful model that gives people a reasonable guess at what their summers will look like in 2100.

Here in MN, we seem to be in a relatively safe zone. We are likely to have warmer and wetter springs, drier late summers, and warmer nights at winter, but it's not going to get that much hotter here. That being said. Culturally important activities like ice fishing and summer lake recreation are probably going to be more difficult to do in some places.

The Maryland State Climatology office might have some useful information
You can email the state climatologist too and ask them questions. It's their job to answer them.

Thanks for the kind words. I'm happy to keep talking if something doesn't make sense or you're just interested.
 
Let me preface this by saying I'm not an atmospheric, carbon, or climate scientist, nor am I a physicist, chemist. I have training in these areas but its not my job.

The short answer is nobody knows for sure. There is no crystal ball, but we have lots of good data (observations) over long periods of time, that allow us to reasonably estimate what's more or less likely to occur in the future.

There are models that allow where past and current atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations , along with atmospheric mixing and circulation, and various future carbon dioxide scenarios are inputs. The scenarios are things like business as usual, reduction of some %, increases of some %. Then the model produces a range of reasonable future atmospheric CO2 scenarios. Those outputs can then by applied to other models estimating things like weather, ice loss at the poles, sea level rise. Sociologist and Economists also use this data and information to understand how these earth outcomes impact people's lives.

What does it look like for you and me? We can't model everybody's life and it really does depend on where you live, what your ability to withstand economic downturns is, your ability to move or escape natural disasters. What I think is reasonable to say is wherever you live weather is going to be more variable, things will be warmer on average with more 90+ degree days, nights will be warmer (winter nights in particular). If you live near the ocean. It's rising and will continue to do so. Food chains will be disrupted as brackish environments (breeding grounds) are changed and humans will have to move and change their infrastructure. The poorest people in the world will of course be the most impacted and the most desperate. What happens exactly in Maryland vs. Minnesota vs. Arizona, vs. Mississippi vs. New Deli, or Dublin, or Sao Paolo requires lots of local study, which there isn't much money being distributed to do.

My personal feeling / belief - and I think the evidence points to this - is that the fossil carbon / fuel faucet wasn't addressed in a timely manner. We've known about this for at least 30 years and because human decision making is short term (the next fiscal year or political cycle) and the global economic and political power structure require the intensive use of natural resources to "fuel" their profits some people will lose their lives. I'm simultaneously not particularly worried more than the general terror that is pervasive in our daily lives in today's world causes me.

There is awareness among those that don't want to lie to themselves. There is potential that a very profitable economy emerges based on the need to address these problems. Humans usually have a pretty strong will to live. So I'm somewhat optimistic that there will be an evolution that allows us to do so. That being said, our lives - more accurately the lives of people 50, 100, 200, 300 years in the future will have been completely altered by our choices now. People's lives are being altered right now, and I still fully expect every last drop of fossil carbon to be used. I sort of wish we would just burn it all right now, today, this second so that we can get it over with and deal with the consequences.

What I imagine is that there will be a climate refugee issue in every country. First in the poorest places, but even in the U.S. I hope that ocean food chains are not so disrupted that they collapse, that ocean circulation is not irrevocably altered, and that there is enough water to grow enough crops, and enough relatively clean water to drink. If those systems completely collapse then it's going to be very very difficult for humans to survive. Even if those things don't completely collapse there will almost certainly be conflicts about them because without them economies collapse... and as long as we continue to view ourselves as part of whatever political boundary (our neighborhood, city, or country) we are not thinking in the way that is required to prevent those systems from collapsing.

Here is a useful model that gives people a reasonable guess at what their summers will look like in 2100.

Here in MN, we seem to be in a relatively safe zone. We are likely to have warmer and wetter springs, drier late summers, and warmer nights at winter, but it's not going to get that much hotter here. That being said. Culturally important activities like ice fishing and summer lake recreation are probably going to be more difficult to do in some places.

The Maryland State Climatology office might have some useful information
You can email the state climatologist too and ask them questions. It's their job to answer them.

Thanks for the kind words. I'm happy to keep talking if something doesn't make sense or you're just interested.
This all makes sense! Not enough people are taking this seriously. Is it because it is unknown? Is it because people need to to start effing up their daily lives before they pay attention? Are we going to have to go to rationing gas/water/food for people to pay attention?

I know here in MD, the storms are more intense and frequent. And I just wonder how much more intense and frequent they are going to become. And it seems like there are more tornadoes everywhere.

I imagine places like New Orleans are going to be more unpleasant in the summer, if not downright unbearable. I want to move back to NOLA but realistically know that it will not be a city that can sustain a human population. Probably in my lifetime.
 
This all makes sense! Not enough people are taking this seriously. Is it because it is unknown? Is it because people need to to start effing up their daily lives before they pay attention? Are we going to have to go to rationing gas/water/food for people to pay attention?

Yes. My opinion is that people have a very difficult time thinking beyond their immediate needs. The reasons are a stew of lizard brainess, desperation for basic health and resources, conditioning to feel desperate, and societal and economic norms that teach people to behave like they have to consume everything now to be prepared for the unknown or all that they can not control.

If you want to conspiracy theory about it I think there are people benefiting from the idea of desperation and the promotion of chaos in our daily lives.

Systems thinking, earth science, requires people to attempt to understand that they are the tiniest speck of dust in time. That goes against the premise of religion. It goes against the premise of wealth, consumption, and ownership. So it's very difficult for people to care about the thing when the answer is change most of your behaviors and hope for the best.

If i were a gambling person I would say yes. Some tragedy will need to occur before most people and certainly our government will really act...but grain of salt I'm cynical and have almost zero faith.

I know here in MD, the storms are more intense and frequent. And I just wonder how much more intense and frequent they are going to become. And it seems like there are more tornadoes everywhere.

I imagine places like New Orleans are going to be more unpleasant in the summer, if not downright unbearable. I want to move back to NOLA but realistically know that it will not be a city that can sustain a human population. Probably in my lifetime.

Storm intensity and frequency seem to be the trends we have a decent handle on. Increased frequency of intense storms seems likely many places and has already been occurring many places. What do those storms mean for our investments in infrastructure, water availability, and where people can live? It's different everywhere, but it's one of the things I think a lot about in my job. For instance, in some parts of the country where people are really reliant on groundwater for drinking water, industry, and agriculture increased rainfall / precip might be a good thing, except when more falls in intense storms much of that water can't be absorbed by the ground so it runs off into a stream or stormwater system. So even with more rain, less of it might be available for us to use.

New Orleans isn't going anywhere anytime soon, but yes it might be more unpleasant during the summer and maybe there is an increased likelihood of large storms hitting the area. Whether or not the money has been properly spent on the engineering required to keep the city from flooding I don't know... and certainly the destruction of the natural areas (the wetlands) in coastal LA has had a dramatic impact on the ability of storm surge to be buffered. The Mississippi River has historically changed course but the settlement of NOLA and the engineering of the levees changed the natural course of the river, perhaps a lot of money could be spent to re-route the Mississippi, but that seems unlikely and culturally unreasonable... however doing so might lessen the stress on the engineered system that prevents flooding in the city.
 
Yes. My opinion is that people have a very difficult time thinking beyond their immediate needs. The reasons are a stew of lizard brainess, desperation for basic health and resources, conditioning to feel desperate, and societal and economic norms that teach people to behave like they have to consume everything now to be prepared for the unknown or all that they can not control.

If you want to conspiracy theory about it I think there are people benefiting from the idea of desperation and the promotion of chaos in our daily lives.

Systems thinking, earth science, requires people to attempt to understand that they are the tiniest speck of dust in time. That goes against the premise of religion. It goes against the premise of wealth, consumption, and ownership. So it's very difficult for people to care about the thing when the answer is change most of your behaviors and hope for the best.

If i were a gambling person I would say yes. Some tragedy will need to occur before most people and certainly our government will really act...but grain of salt I'm cynical and have almost zero faith.



Storm intensity and frequency seem to be the trends we have a decent handle on. Increased frequency of intense storms seems likely many places and has already been occurring many places. What do those storms mean for our investments in infrastructure, water availability, and where people can live? It's different everywhere, but it's one of the things I think a lot about in my job. For instance, in some parts of the country where people are really reliant on groundwater for drinking water, industry, and agriculture increased rainfall / precip might be a good thing, except when more falls in intense storms much of that water can't be absorbed by the ground so it runs off into a stream or stormwater system. So even with more rain, less of it might be available for us to use.

New Orleans isn't going anywhere anytime soon, but yes it might be more unpleasant during the summer and maybe there is an increased likelihood of large storms hitting the area. Whether or not the money has been properly spent on the engineering required to keep the city from flooding I don't know... and certainly the destruction of the natural areas (the wetlands) in coastal LA has had a dramatic impact on the ability of storm surge to be buffered. The Mississippi River has historically changed course but the settlement of NOLA and the engineering of the levees changed the natural course of the river, perhaps a lot of money could be spent to re-route the Mississippi, but that seems unlikely and culturally unreasonable... however doing so might lessen the stress on the engineered system that prevents flooding in the city.
This is why we are having problems right now. The river has been artificially held to flow through BR and then through NOLA but for several decades, it's wanted to change course and we won't let it because it would mean killing both cities.

 
This is why we are having problems right now. The river has been artificially held to flow through BR and then through NOLA but for several decades, it's wanted to change course and we won't let it because it would mean killing both cities.

I think the debacle known as MRGO should convince everyone down there that trying to "move" mother nature doesn't usually work out well for humans.
 
This is why we are having problems right now. The river has been artificially held to flow through BR and then through NOLA but for several decades, it's wanted to change course and we won't let it because it would mean killing both cities.


That's been my limited understanding. There are some strong arguments to be made for allowing the River to migrate but the cities can't move with it. so shoulder shrug. I don't know enough to know if anyone has put forth any ideas that would allow for the survival of the cities and the economy and allow the river to behave more naturally. It's pretty interesting if you look at the delta evolution / pale delta imagery for the Mississippi and how it's moved through time.

I think the debacle known as MRGO should convince everyone down there that trying to "move" mother nature doesn't usually work out well for humans.

Right. but we can't eliminate the problematic human system from the way things are supposed to work... so how do we better integrate them? / move towards a human system that works in the way the natural one does. This is something I'm trying to get across in my job all the time.
 
Right. but we can't eliminate the problematic human system from the way things are supposed to work... so how do we better integrate them? / move towards a human system that works in the way the natural one does. This is something I'm trying to get across in my job all the time.
I advocate for this all the time when we talk about antibiotic resistant super bugs. I make sure we only have antibiotics when needed and I try to buy meat that wasn't fed antibiotics since that's the worst offender. 70% of all antibiotic use in the US is in live stock.
 
Not surprising, but glad somebody did this survey / study

 
Tragic situation with the recent volcanic eruption in NZ.


white island.JPG

There are a number of very active volcanoes in New Zealand. The Pacific plate is moving under the Australian plate. Some water entrained in those rocks vaporizes as the rocks are pulled/pushed down and eventually melt. The eruptions associated with the volcanoes that form tend to be explosive because of the gas (water vapor) associated with those magmas.
 
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