Totally Tubular: The Tube Thread

[gafacaode]

Yeah the prima luna are definitely pricier, although if you’re going for the older dialogue you’ll likely be able to get it a bit cheaper as nos or used than the new evo. They do hold their price quite well used. The premium is the old version of the evo 300 I have and is a great amp. It can also run the new KT170 but they wouldn’t have been able to advertise that at launch as that tube didn’t exist. For the KT150/170 you can’t use the cage as they’re too tall.

If you’re looking at jolida maybe a black ice might fit too? How do their new ones fit into the price you were looking at? The FX10 and F11 are probably a bit weedy for the Denton but the F22 and above would power them just fine.

Black Ice Audio Integrated Tube Amplifiers — BLACK ICE AUDIO

Black Ice Audio Fusion Integrated Tube Amplifiers are in our opinion the finest tube amplifiers available today. The Odyssey Circuit is designed by Jim Fosgate has zero feedback noise, and maximizes tube life. Our Fusion tube amps have all the advantages of tubes and the bass of solid state, our tec

blackiceaudio.com

I looked at the Black Ice amps a while back when @HiFi Guy recommended them, but importing them from the US is crazy expensive.
The Jolida and PL are used, but come from a reputable shop here. They've been selling vintage audio for over 20 years.

 

[Joe Mac]

I looked at the Black Ice amps a while back when @HiFi Guy recommended them, but importing them from the US is crazy expensive.
The Jolida and PL are used, but come from a reputable shop here. They've been selling vintage audio for over 20 years.

Yeah I was half considering their phono stage myself but as you say import duty and shipping on top of the list really bumps the price up quite a bit.

 

[kvetcha]

I looked at the Black Ice amps a while back when @HiFi Guy recommended them, but importing them from the US is crazy expensive.
The Jolida and PL are used, but come from a reputable shop here. They've been selling vintage audio for over 20 years.

The Jolidas, if they’re not too old, should have the E-Z Bias system, which honestly makes biasing a cinch.

 

[gafacaode]

The Jolidas, if they’re not too old, should have the E-Z Bias system, which honestly makes biasing a cinch.

I've downloaded the manual and I'll need a multimeter to bias this Jolida. Doesn't look too complicated, but I'd need some extra tools.

 

[Joe Mac]

I've downloaded the manual and I'll need a multimeter to bias this Jolida. Doesn't look too complicated, but I'd need some extra tools.

Just be careful in that you’ll also have to use the multimeter to periodically check the bias as well to make sure the tubes are going out of sync because you can see them going out of sync on the meters on the newer models.

 

[gafacaode]

Just be careful in that you’ll also have to use the multimeter to periodically check the bias as well to make sure the tubes are going out of sync because you can see them going out of sync on the meters on the newer models.

I gotta be honest this all seems a little daunting.
I'm tending towards the Prima Luna with the autobiasing and the faulty tube indicator light. It also has a subwoofer dedicated out.

 

[Joe Mac]

I gotta be honest this all seems a little daunting.
I'm tending towards the Prima Luna with the autobiasing and the faulty tube indicator light. It also has a subwoofer dedicated out.

Yeah tubes are daunting a little. But the Jolida’s are nice amps and you’ll be fine but they require a bit of tic and work. I had a quad before that had capacitive auto bias and sacrificial resistor that blew if a tube ran away with itself. The problem was that meant you had to then send it back to quad to have the resistor changed. It just got too much hassle. It actually had me very close to going to a warm sounding class a solid state amp. In the end I persevered with tubes and got the PL. The PL is child’s play by comparison.

One thing to consider, not to put you off tubes, is the cost of tubes at the moment. Especially with Russia. The big power tubes need changing every 4,000 hours and the little signal gives every 8,000 hours. Estimate it similarly to stylus wear. That’s about every 2 years for the big ones and every 4 years for the little ones on my usage. Have a look at the tubes you’d like to try and see the price that’d be and make sure you’re comfortable with it.

PS. The big monster power tubes (KT150 & KT170) are substantially more expensive but will also last a lot lot longer than the 4,000 (unless there is a fault) because the PL runs them very softly.

 

[kvetcha]

I've downloaded the manual and I'll need a multimeter to bias this Jolida. Doesn't look too complicated, but I'd need some extra tools.

That's more of a pain. E-Z Bias is just a set of LEDs, one per power tube, that light up solid when the bias is correct, and start flickering when it's not. So it's just a matter of checking them once a month and making tweaks if necessary.

Might be an older Jolida. What's the model?

 

[Joe Mac]

That's more of a pain. E-Z Bias is just a set of LEDs, one per power tube, that light up solid when the bias is correct, and start flickering when it's not. So it's just a matter of checking them once a month and making tweaks if necessary.

Might be an older Jolida. What's the model?

I think he said it was the JD202 earlier. When I was looking at reviews they were from around 2010 so at least a 13 year old design.

 

[kvetcha]

I think he said it was the JD202 earlier. When I was looking at reviews they were from around 2010 so at least a 13 year old design.

Ah, yeah. That one's got the trim pots on the bottom, which is a little bit of a pain. Not that you should have to check more than once every year or two.

It's a pretty nice-sounding amp, by all accounts.

The PrimaLuna is great, but the tube replacement cost is going to be literally twice as much, which is something to consider.

 

[Joe Mac]

Ah, yeah. That one's got the trim pots on the bottom, which is a little bit of a pain. Not that you should have to check more than once every year or two.

It's a pretty nice-sounding amp, by all accounts.

The PrimaLuna is great, but I think the tube replacement cost is going to be considerably higher, which is something to consider.

Tube replacement costs genuinely is something that everyone should take into account along with the amp cost before even considering a tube amp these days. With the Russian war of aggression in Ukraine they’re just damn expensive and the options are less than they were.

All that taken into account it’s not twice the cost (he mentioned the dialogue premium not the dialogue premium hp, it’s the evo 300 equivalent) it is still just 4 power tubes the same though and the PL does run them very softly, particularly the higher plate voltage ones like bigger KTs. The small signal tubes last an age in it and the key ones are the centre two gain tubes. Spend your money on them and basically anything reliable and cheap will do as the four driver tubes flanking because in my experience they do nothing to the sound.

 

[Joe Mac]

Also @gafacaode make sure you have space for a tube amp. They run hot. If you get the PL it needs room top bottom and side to side. It can’t necessarily squeeze into a cabinet, it needs room to get air in and cool down. If it’s in a cabinet make sure it has at least 5cm top bottom and side to side, preferably more. Also beware that if there are components above it it will cook them and that putting them on a raised isolation platform may be necessary to provide a heat barrier as much as isolation. Don’t put records above it all in any circumstance, it’s venting way too much heat upwards.

 

[Joe Mac]

Just for reference this in my set up with the newer version of the same amp. There are 5 cm above it. It was still cooking the ps audio part and causing it to shut off. I had to put that platform in to give an air gap and physical barrier to dispate and absorb heat.

On the positive it is just a €30 butcher block chopping board with 4 Hudson hifi feet.

 

[gafacaode]

That's more of a pain. E-Z Bias is just a set of LEDs, one per power tube, that light up solid when the bias is correct, and start flickering when it's not. So it's just a matter of checking them once a month and making tweaks if necessary.

Might be an older Jolida. What's the model?

I think he said it was the JD202 earlier. When I was looking at reviews they were from around 2010 so at least a 13 year old design.

yeah, it's the JD202
Welp, the Universe has spoken.
No Prima Luna for me, it was sold yesterday.
They suggested an Audio Research VSi60, but I'm completely unfamiliar with it, I'll have to do some reading.

 

[gafacaode]

Also @gafacaode make sure you have space for a tube amp. They run hot. If you get the PL it needs room top bottom and side to side. It can’t necessarily squeeze into a cabinet, it needs room to get air in and cool down. If it’s in a cabinet make sure it has at least 5cm top bottom and side to side, preferably more. Also beware that if there are components above it it will cook them and that putting them on a raised isolation platform may be necessary to provide a heat barrier as much as isolation. Don’t put records above it all in any circumstance, it’s venting way too much heat upwards.

Thankfully space is not an issue, it'll be sitting alone atop the counter.

 

[Joe Mac]

yeah, it's the JD202
Welp, the Universe has spoken.
No Prima Luna for me, it was sold yesterday.
They suggested an Audio Research VSi60, but I'm completely unfamiliar with it, I'll have to do some reading.

Audio Research VSi60 integrated amplifier

I'm a basically a tube guy, but I've never warmed up to most lower-powered integrated tube amps. Although I quite enjoyed the time I spent with the Cayin A-50T, which I reviewed in the March 2008 issue of Stereophile, over the years I've typically found I'd rather spend time with mid-priced...

www.stereophile.com

Audiogon Discussion Forum

Just wondering the reliability of the VSi60 integrated. Am tempted by the idea of a tube integrated, but a little wary with the stereophile review and c...

forum.audiogon.com

It appears it uses a sacrificial resistor like my quad did. I found that a total pain in the arse plus you’d need to have a tech local willing to replace it for you when it blows which is not so much fun. It’s pretty much why i bit the bullet and paid more money on top of the trade in to get my PL.

 

[gafacaode]

Audio Research VSi60 integrated amplifier

I'm a basically a tube guy, but I've never warmed up to most lower-powered integrated tube amps. Although I quite enjoyed the time I spent with the Cayin A-50T, which I reviewed in the March 2008 issue of Stereophile, over the years I've typically found I'd rather spend time with mid-priced...

www.stereophile.com

Audiogon Discussion Forum

Just wondering the reliability of the VSi60 integrated. Am tempted by the idea of a tube integrated, but a little wary with the stereophile review and c...

forum.audiogon.com

It appears it uses a sacrificial resistor like my quad did. I found that a total pain in the arse plus you’d need to have a tech local willing to replace it for you when it blows which is not so much fun. It’s pretty much why i bit the bullet and paid more money on top of the trade in to get my PL.

Oh boy, the devil really is in the details.

 

[Joe Mac]

Oh boy, the devil really is in the details.

It is. And it’s a pretty common design as it does work effectively to stop a bad tube killing the entire amp, a small resistor is sacrificed instead. You really need to look on forums to find the finer detail because reviewers only have these things for a few weeks and I’m sure it sounds fantastic for that time. I loved how my quads sounded, in some ways more than the PL, but the hassle way outweighed that by a long way.

 

[kvetcha]

Tube replacement costs genuinely is something that everyone should take into account along with the amp cost before even considering a tube amp these days. With the Russian war of aggression in Ukraine they’re just damn expensive and the options are less than they were.

All that taken into account it’s not twice the cost (he mentioned the dialogue premium not the dialogue premium hp, it’s the evo 300 equivalent) it is still just 4 power tubes the same though and the PL does run them very softly, particularly the higher plate voltage ones like bigger KTs. The small signal tubes last an age in it and the key ones are the centre two gain tubes. Spend your money on them and basically anything reliable and cheap will do as the four driver tubes flanking because in my experience they do nothing to the sound.

ahh, my bad. was looking at the wrong PL, as you noticed.

 

[Joe Mac]

ahh, my bad. was looking at the wrong PL, as you noticed.

Yeah the old naming convention was very confusing! The newer one with numbers makes much sense. The tube replacement cost was why I went for the 300, it’s effectively the same amp as the 400 with all the same transformer and component upgrades over the 200 it just has half the power tubes. I don’t need that power and 8 tubes to replace is very expensive!