Totally Tubular: The Tube Thread

HiFi Guy said:
Looks like it is discontinued.

The Denafrips DACs look interesting, but not tubed. I may up my DAC game next year and actually fire up the Mac Mini.
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Older models (MK1 - 3) are discontinued. The current model is MP-D2 MK3 Deluxe (this is the one we used yesterday).

Sidenote: it's very modular. Even people with the MK1 can upgrade all the way to the fully spec'd out MK3 Dlx. I personally helped this same friend swap out his MK3 motherboard to the MK3 Dlx board. But you can roll tubes, DAC chips, caps, boards, etc. It's pretty interesting, and it feels like a good long term investment as digital keeps changing.
 
Here's a tube vendor I found that's a bit off the radar. Tubes ordered in multiples are matched in multiple parameters. Great prices and fast shipping. They offer a 30 day money back guarantee too.

Tonal Tubes

I bought an octet of Gold Lion KT88s and a pair of Gold Lion 12AU7s to be used as input tubes. The difference/improvement is huge. The PL Dialogue Premium HP really is a world class amp and worth every penny.
 
wooha said:
So I've always been very interested in going the tube route, especially perpetuated by the Primaluna thread on the old site and the few times I've had a chance to hear some in action. I think it might be time to start this journey, perhaps oddly because I want/need to get different speakers. My Polk LSiM 705's are great, but they're massive (for my small apartment) and at 4 feet tall and 80 pounds each, I get anxiety thinking about when I'll have to move them and keeping them pristine. Had to get rid of the original packing materials because they were trashed in shipment and really no room to store them anyway. The boxes were almost as big as I am! Good enough excuse to revamp things, yeah?

The engineering dork in me has been geeking out on high efficiency speakers, SET amps, minimalist signal paths and the like, so I've been formulating a plan to kill two birds with one stone by fixing my speaker "problem" and going down the tube rabbit hole. The first step is to go the Zu speaker route, maybe with the next Dirty Weekend run in July, or perhaps jump up to Souls a la @HiFi Guy? Really love the simple design and the company's philosophies in general. Their cables alone impressed me enough to want to support the company more. Anyway, with these super high efficiency speakers in tow, then really keen on putting the ridiculously well-reviewed (for its price) APPJ Mini up against my Parasound for a bit while I figure out the next move. If results are promising, maybe step up to another SET amp, something like Decware, or perhaps save up a bit to Primaluna or similar. So that's the plan for now, I think. It should keep my sound-tinkering desire at bay by giving me a long period upgrade path to follow and all the rolling possibilities.
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I haven't been spending much time on these forums lately, because life. But I have 6+ months of equipment updates to catch you guys up on. Should get some time in the next week to give a rundown. Stay tuned...
 
wooha said:
I haven't been spending much time on these forums lately, because life. But I have 6+ months of equipment updates to catch you guys up on. Should get some time in the next week to give a rundown. Stay tuned...
Click to expand...
SO! Part 1:

Last summer I picked up a Musical Paradise MP-301 Mk 3, and the tube recommendations as suggested by @HiFi Guy. Paired with the Polk LSiM 705s, it was a pretty stark contrast from my Parasound Halo, as you'd imagine. Two entirely different beasts. I found myself preferring the mid and upper range tones of the MP, while the Parasound was much better with bass and size/separation of soundstage. (FWIW, the sound produced by the stock tubes on the MP = highly questionable. Definitely upgrade the tubes if you use this amp.)

Interesting first step. Enough success with the MP to keep traveling down the path. It was time to try some Zu's. I decided to go up to the Souls, rather than the DWs... don't think I need to elaborate on the "why", as that has been discussed in great detail in the Zu thread, but I will add that the crossover-less design and taking a minimalist approach was a huge motivator, on top of the high efficiency.

Luckily, I live within ~3 hour drive of 16M+ people, so selling the massive Polks with local pickup only didn't take long at all - and at a good sales price too! They sold faster than I expected, really, so I got the pleasure of listening to music through a $40 bluetooth speaker that I take to the beach controlled by my phone for over three weeks. If you ever want to gain a renewed appreciation for your hi-fi system, I dare you to take that challenge.

The Zu's arrive, and the A-B testing between the Parasound and the MP is crazy... There's a statement on the Soul's webpage: "Soul ruthlessly lays bare an improper amp match." I believe this has been echoed by @HiFi Guy as well, and I'll add to it. The traits of both amps heard through the LSiMs were greatly accentuated by the Souls. With the Parasound Halo, the Souls had great soundstage, good bass, but it sounded like they were behind a pane of glass. "Muddy" would be a bit harsh, because the soundstage was well defined, but everything almost sounded muffled. The MP, on the other hand, had an even better tone in the mid and high range, but the soundstage was tiny and not well defined, and the bass was, in a word, terrrrrible. Messing around with the bottom gap height of the Souls didn't help much. Unless it was an extremely bass-heavy recording, the low range was frankly pretty pathetic out of the MP. That said, you know which amp I preferred with the Souls? The MP. The sparkle and tone of the mids and highs outweighed the lack of lows vs. the muffled Parasound with its improved soundstage and bass. Not bad performance for $500 (w/tube upgrades) vs. $2500.

The takeaway: The MP-301 performs crazy-good for its price, and I think if you want to play with tubes at as low of a price as reasonable, it would be a solid choice. Especially with good all-around speakers like the Polk LSiMs. The Souls, however -- while all indications are that the Zu Omen DWs will play well with most systems, if you're going to jump up to the Souls, you really need to do your homework to make sure they'll work well with the rest of your system. Would I be happy long-term with the Souls being driven by the Parasound or the MP? Definitely not. But there are clearly many amps that will make these speakers SING, and resources to figure out which ones. @HiFi Guy has clearly found a winning combo. Gerrit at Zu is extremely helpful and happy to discuss components that will work great with the Souls. And I'll be able to add another to the list in Part 2.
 
wooha said:
SO! Part 1:

Last summer I picked up a Musical Paradise MP-301 Mk 3, and the tube recommendations as suggested by @HiFi Guy. Paired with the Polk LSiM 705s, it was a pretty stark contrast from my Parasound Halo, as you'd imagine. Two entirely different beasts. I found myself preferring the mid and upper range tones of the MP, while the Parasound was much better with bass and size/separation of soundstage. (FWIW, the sound produced by the stock tubes on the MP = highly questionable. Definitely upgrade the tubes if you use this amp.)

Interesting first step. Enough success with the MP to keep traveling down the path. It was time to try some Zu's. I decided to go up to the Souls, rather than the DWs... don't think I need to elaborate on the "why", as that has been discussed in great detail in the Zu thread, but I will add that the crossover-less design and taking a minimalist approach was a huge motivator, on top of the high efficiency.

Luckily, I live within ~3 hour drive of 16M+ people, so selling the massive Polks with local pickup only didn't take long at all - and at a good sales price too! They sold faster than I expected, really, so I got the pleasure of listening to music through a $40 bluetooth speaker that I take to the beach controlled by my phone for over three weeks. If you ever want to gain a renewed appreciation for your hi-fi system, I dare you to take that challenge.

The Zu's arrive, and the A-B testing between the Parasound and the MP is crazy... There's a statement on the Soul's webpage: "Soul ruthlessly lays bare an improper amp match." I believe this has been echoed by @HiFi Guy as well, and I'll add to it. The traits of both amps heard through the LSiMs were greatly accentuated by the Souls. With the Parasound Halo, the Souls had great soundstage, good bass, but it sounded like they were behind a pane of glass. "Muddy" would be a bit harsh, because the soundstage was well defined, but everything almost sounded muffled. The MP, on the other hand, had an even better tone in the mid and high range, but the soundstage was tiny and not well defined, and the bass was, in a word, terrrrrible. Messing around with the bottom gap height of the Souls didn't help much. Unless it was an extremely bass-heavy recording, the low range was frankly pretty pathetic out of the MP. That said, you know which amp I preferred with the Souls? The MP. The sparkle and tone of the mids and highs outweighed the lack of lows vs. the muffled Parasound with its improved soundstage and bass. Not bad performance for $500 (w/tube upgrades) vs. $2500.

The takeaway: The MP-301 performs crazy-good for its price, and I think if you want to play with tubes at as low of a price as reasonable, it would be a solid choice. Especially with good all-around speakers like the Polk LSiMs. The Souls, however -- while all indications are that the Zu Omen DWs will play well with most systems, if you're going to jump up to the Souls, you really need to do your homework to make sure they'll work well with the rest of your system. Would I be happy long-term with the Souls being driven by the Parasound or the MP? Definitely not. But there are clearly many amps that will make these speakers SING, and resources to figure out which ones. @HiFi Guy has clearly found a winning combo. Gerrit at Zu is extremely helpful and happy to discuss components that will work great with the Souls. And I'll be able to add another to the list in Part 2.
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Four things:

Congrats!
What finish did you get on the Souls?
Pictures?

And the suspense for part 2 is killing me!
 
kvetcha said:
The difference in imaging between the Jolida’s stock Tung-Sol 12ax7 and the Genelex Gold Lion is night and day. The center image, somewhat nebulous with the Tung-Sol, has snapped completely into focus and is just floating in space between the speakers. Haven’t had time to make any tonal comparisons, but just by virtue of the soundstage it’s the Gold Lions by a mile.
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Just throwing this out there for someone who may need 12AX7 tubes, the Soktek 12AX7LPS is a great tube and very reasonably priced.
 
Okay, part 2. Sorry for the delay. Holidays and moving into a new home have been taking up all my time lately.

So after the Parasound vs MP experience, I knew I wanted to continue down the path of tube amps. I had PrimaLuna at the top of my list due to the chatter on this forum, but they were a little more $ than I wanted to spend. As you can imagine, there are plenty of options out there, especially with the efficiency of the Souls. I won’t go through everything I looked at but let me tell you, that rabbit hole is massive and deep as can be.

The more research I did, the more I felt pointed towards Decware:
  • Fully SET design, zero negative feedback, with only 2 resistors and 1 capacitor in the signal path. Felt that goes along with the minimalist design philosophy of the no-crossover Souls.
  • Self-biasing and self-balancing, so no maintenance or adjustment needed other than changing tubes as needed.
  • Like Zu, Decware is handmade in the US and sold direct, thus no middleman markup, so in theory you’re maximizing value per dollar spent.
  • An absolute legion of fans that swear life and limb to the quality of their amps. I believe @Tanqueray referred to them as cult like at one point. Seems pretty accurate from what I’ve seen. Definitely helped my decision to read heaps of testimonials on listening experiences being transformed to greatness.
  • Reading the pages of musings on the Decware forums of Steve Deckert himself on the trials and tribulations he goes through in designing these things. It’s very clear these amps are a labor of love for the guy, and every component and design decision is chosen with the highest level of confidence that it’ll result in the best sounding experience possible.
Those are the main reasons at least. So the Decware amp selection process is mostly based on how efficient your speakers are – other than maybe the 25th Anniversary Zen amp which seems to be a whole different beast – you supposedly aren’t gaining a higher level of sonic quality by getting a more expensive amp. Just more wattage. Having the Souls, all I need is an absolute minimum of power, so I went with the SE84UFO2 Zen Triode, and its menacing 2.3 watts of output. I chose both available performance upgrades – type II beeswax coupling caps and the beeswax bypass mod – and I’m a sucker for aesthetics so I also got the custom wood base option and, months later after a conversation with their wood base guy, went with a really sweet looking tiger/curly maple.

I say “months later” because the waiting list for Decware amps is not for the impatient. It took around 4 and a half months to get mine. I was prepared for that though as you can see the real time waiting list and figure out about how long it is at any given time. Also kind of fun to see your name move up the list as the weeks go by and anticipation grows. Anyway, I had plenty of time with the MP-301 while waiting for my amp to arrive, so I really got to let that sound settle in.

Once the Zen amp arrived – holy shit. This is the single biggest upgrade I’ve ever experienced… Even bigger than moving up to the Sutherland Insight and going from $400 bookshelf speakers to the Polk LSiMs. The detail is incredible. Throw every cliché audiophile word out there, this has got it. Music is just more real. You're in the room. It floats and envelops you. What really keeps getting me is the low volume detail. I’ve never had a system where the small details in recordings come out at lower volume levels, but they are there with the Zen. I’m not sure how to explain it other than you have to hear it to believe it.

Is 2.3W of power enough? With the Souls, I don't have to turn the amp up past 25-30% for my usual listening level volume with most recordings. Once I get up to 40% and higher I start worrying about complaints from the neighbors.

And to say the Zu Souls suit this amp is an understatement. Gerrit at Zu confirmed there were a number of Zu customers who were running Decware amps so it would likely be a good match, and it sure is. You can add me to that list.

Unfortunately these photos don’t do the tiger maple any justice whatsoever, but you can sort of see the figuring.

2EDCEB3C-E4BB-4331-9D72-45E87BB495E9.jpeg5B5BBB7B-4896-4796-83BC-2F2E77E4A7E0.jpegFDF85F7A-C7CB-4BC8-AAB4-91ADE16D449B.jpeg
 
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HiFi Guy said:
Four things:

Congrats!
What finish did you get on the Souls?
Pictures?

And the suspense for part 2 is killing me!
Click to expand...
I went with Ghost Black Maple. I debated long and hard but ended up keeping it simple. I love how the silver rims around the driver and the Zu logo pop against the black maple. What you and others have said about the quality of the Zu finishes is true - they really are quite special!

Try not to be jealous of my current audio equipment “rack”. As I said, I’m in the process of moving and not quite fully unpacked and set up yet. 😉

31D7039E-4E93-4A66-AE1F-5162E149A6A6.jpeg
 
I was so close to pulling the trigger on a Decware, I was just concerned about the overall SPL with my system using the smaller amps, and the Torii Jr didn't come with a subwoofer out. They looked absolutely gorgeous, though. I'm jealous!
 
wooha said:
Okay, part 2. Sorry for the delay. Holidays and moving into a new home have been taking up all my time lately.

So after the Parasound vs MP experience, I knew I wanted to continue down the path of tube amps. I had PrimaLuna at the top of my list due to the chatter on this forum, but they were a little more $ than I wanted to spend. As you can imagine, there are plenty of options out there, especially with the efficiency of the Souls. I won’t go through everything I looked at but let me tell you, that rabbit hole is massive and deep as can be.

The more research I did, the more I felt pointed towards Decware:
  • Fully SET design, zero negative feedback, with only 2 resistors and 1 capacitor in the signal path. Felt that goes along with the minimalist design philosophy of the no-crossover Souls.
  • Self-biasing and self-balancing, so no maintenance or adjustment needed other than changing tubes as needed.
  • Like Zu, Decware is handmade in the US and sold direct, thus no middleman markup, so in theory you’re maximizing value per dollar spent.
  • An absolute legion of fans that swear life and limb to the quality of their amps. I believe @Tanqueray referred to them as cult like at one point. Seems pretty accurate from what I’ve seen. Definitely helped my decision to read heaps of testimonials on listening experiences being transformed to greatness.
  • Reading the pages of musings on the Decware forums of Steve Deckert himself on the trials and tribulations he goes through in designing these things. It’s very clear these amps are a labor of love for the guy, and every component and design decision is chosen with the highest level of confidence that it’ll result in the best sounding experience possible.
Those are the main reasons at least. So the Decware amp selection process is mostly based on how efficient your speakers are – other than maybe the 25th Anniversary Zen amp which seems to be a whole different beast – you supposedly aren’t gaining a higher level of sonic quality by getting a more expensive amp. Just more wattage. Having the Souls, all I need is an absolute minimum of power, so I went with the SE84UFO2 Zen Triode, and its menacing 2.3 watts of output. I chose both available performance upgrades – type II beeswax coupling caps and the beeswax bypass mod – and I’m a sucker for aesthetics so I also got the custom wood base option and, months later after a conversation with their wood base guy, went with a really sweet looking tiger/curly maple.

I say “months later” because the waiting list for Decware amps is not for the impatient. It took around 4 and a half months to get mine. I was prepared for that though as you can see the real time waiting list and figure out about how long it is at any given time. Also kind of fun to see your name move up the list as the weeks go by and anticipation grows. Anyway, I had plenty of time with the MP-301 while waiting for my amp to arrive, so I really got to let that sound settle in.

Once the Zen amp arrived – holy shit. This is the single biggest upgrade I’ve ever experienced… Even bigger than moving up to the Sutherland Insight and going from $400 bookshelf speakers to the Polk LSiMs. The detail is incredible. Throw every cliché audiophile word out there, this has got it. Music is just more real. You're in the room. It floats and envelops you. What really keeps getting me is the low volume detail. I’ve never had a system where the small details in recordings come out at lower volume levels, but they are there with the Zen. I’m not sure how to explain it other than you have to hear it to believe it.

Is 2.3W of power enough? With the Souls, I don't have to turn the amp up past 25-30% for my usual listening level volume with most recordings. Once I get up to 40% and higher I start worrying about complaints from the neighbors.

And to say the Zu Souls suit this amp is an understatement. Gerrit at Zu confirmed there were a number of Zu customers who were running Decware amps so it would likely be a good match, and it sure is. You can add me to that list.

Unfortunately these photos don’t do the tiger maple any justice whatsoever, but you can sort of see the figuring.

View attachment 28574View attachment 28575View attachment 28576
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Thanks for sharing! My goal is to get an all USA made, tube based rig for myself one day too. I have Zu Dirty Weekends and an 8 watt solid state amp at the moment. I'm not a bass head, but I don't want soft, undefined bass either. What are your initial impressions of the bass output so far? Are you noticing any tradeoffs moving to such a low watt amp?
 
wooha said:
I went with Ghost Black Maple. I debated long and hard but ended up keeping it simple. I love how the silver rims around the driver and the Zu logo pop against the black maple. What you and others have said about the quality of the Zu finishes is true - they really are quite special!

Try not to be jealous of my current audio equipment “rack”. As I said, I’m in the process of moving and not quite fully unpacked and set up yet. 😉

View attachment 28578
Click to expand...

That really is a beautiful system. I would have considered a Decware, alas no remote which is a requirement here. Of course, the Decwares are definitely a "no fly zone" with the Maggies I had when I changed amps. Fortunately, the PrimaLuna is a great match for the Souls, so I'm set. I still have yet so see anything negative about a Decware amp- anywhere. That speaks volumes.

I really like your Souls- we both did the contrast thing- you with a dark finish and silver beauty rings- me with a light finish and black beauty rings.

Having lived with the Souls for quite a while now, I can't imagine I'd ever part with them. Once setup properly and run in for quite a while, they sound so damn musical that most other speakers sound like....speakers.
 
why do you all prefer tube amps? just wondered whats so special when it can easily break and probably burn a house down
 
duke86fan said:
why do you all prefer tube amps? just wondered whats so special when it can easily break and probably burn a house down
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They sound different from transistors. Those who post here prefer tube amps.

They don't "easily break". They will require occasional tube replacements. A well designed tube amp should be trouble free pretty much indefinitely- usually issues are due to tubes that need replacement, which you can do yourself. A transistor amp needs a tech when it has issues.

As far as burning your house down? Don't leave it on when you aren't home.
 
Splunders said:
Thanks for sharing! My goal is to get an all USA made, tube based rig for myself one day too. I have Zu Dirty Weekends and an 8 watt solid state amp at the moment. I'm not a bass head, but I don't want soft, undefined bass either. What are your initial impressions of the bass output so far? Are you noticing any tradeoffs moving to such a low watt amp?
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I think what you say in "soft, undefined" bass is perfect, because that's exactly what I don't hear. Bass-heavy recordings will give you quite a strong bass presence, but I will say if you're looking for something that rattles your bones, this isn't the amp for you. The bass sounds natural like as an integrated part of the recording, not as a dominant aspect of it - unless the recording calls for it. Notes are well defined, and usually quite easily distinguishable amongst the rest. But the most impressive part to me is the micro detail you hear. In many recordings I'm finding that I'm able to pick out the sound the player's fingers make each time they engage the strings before the note hits. That goes for everything - guitar picks hitting the strings, little vocal curiosities, percussion hits I never noticed before. In fact, with stuff I've been listening to for 20+ years and thought I knew every little detail of, I'm hearing layers that I've never heard before. It's pretty wild. My last set up before this that sounded long-term acceptable, (the Parasound Halo and the Polk LSiM 705s), I never heard that stuff.

No tradeoffs noticed as of now, about 1 month and maybe 50 hours in. Like I wrote above, I don't really need to get much past 30% on the volume knob. 40% I'm worried about the neighbors. Watts aren't an issue. But even at low volume, the details come out in full force. Can't wait to get more hours into it and see if it opens up even more.
 
HiFi Guy said:
That really is a beautiful system. I would have considered a Decware, alas no remote which is a requirement here. Of course, the Decwares are definitely a "no fly zone" with the Maggies I had when I changed amps. Fortunately, the PrimaLuna is a great match for the Souls, so I'm set. I still have yet so see anything negative about a Decware amp- anywhere. That speaks volumes.

I really like your Souls- we both did the contrast thing- you with a dark finish and silver beauty rings- me with a light finish and black beauty rings.

Having lived with the Souls for quite a while now, I can't imagine I'd ever part with them. Once setup properly and run in for quite a while, they sound so damn musical that most other speakers sound like....speakers.
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Oh yeah, I love the color combo of your Souls! Very nearly went that route myself. The look of them in general is just fantastic IMO. That mid-century modern obelisk shape with the big single driver is (y)(y)(y). So clean.

After going through two amp changes and a speaker change over the last six months, I've gained a new appreciation for system synergy. It's amazing just how bad the Parasound - almost universally extremely well reviewed and highly regarded as it is - sounded with the Souls. But with the right amp pairing it's pretty incredible what they can produce. So damn musical, as you say.
 
wooha said:
I went with Ghost Black Maple. I debated long and hard but ended up keeping it simple. I love how the silver rims around the driver and the Zu logo pop against the black maple. What you and others have said about the quality of the Zu finishes is true - they really are quite special!

Try not to be jealous of my current audio equipment “rack”. As I said, I’m in the process of moving and not quite fully unpacked and set up yet. 😉

View attachment 28578
Click to expand...
I don't know how I missed all this, but gratz my friend!! I'm a little jealous, still socking away funds for speakers, and I'm so glad you mentioned the finish because while I wait, that's the one thing I keep going back and forth on, lol.

Did you have to adjust the bottom clearance at all being on carpet?

If marketed just right, that audio rack could be a big seller ;)
 
AnthonyI said:
I don't know how I missed all this, but gratz my friend!! I'm a little jealous, still socking away funds for speakers, and I'm so glad you mentioned the finish because while I wait, that's the one thing I keep going back and forth on, lol.

Did you have to adjust the bottom clearance at all being on carpet?

If marketed just right, that audio rack could be a big seller ;)
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The finish decision is more difficult than the purchase decision!
 
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