I think the ex in this analogy is the VMP forum.
A Poll on VMP Thread Consolidation
- Thread starter Needles & Grooves
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Joe Mac
Well-Known Member
Yep @GritNGlitter spot on!
I’ve nothing against people staying subbed with VMP, I just feel too burnt to carry on.
My point @roffle24 is more that this is our lovely new place, all of our very own, that was built by the hard work of our staff, funded by the generosity of our community for the benefit of our community. This space is big enough to include VMP but it is not thiers, it’s ours, and I think anyone expecting we recreate the info forum needs to realise that there are a band of us who are staunchly against that.
roffle24
Active Member
Oh okay... I was referring the ex to being VMP as an entity, not just the forum portion of it. We got dumped in that scenario haha.
What does this mean exactly?
I find it interesting since the poll is swayed heavily the other way. There can be a band of people staunchly against it, but the poll isn't exactly reflecting that it's the majority opinion.
What does this mean exactly?
I find it interesting since the poll is swayed heavily the other way. There can be a band of people staunchly against it, but the poll isn't exactly reflecting that it's the majority opinion.
Joe Mac
Well-Known Member
I’m talking just for me here, but I’d like to think that others agree.
There is a home for VMP and for it to be talked about but this isn’t their forum. It’s not here to build FOMO and sell their records. Their info forum was a way for them to directly tell us about releases and run guess threads etc to build FOMO around their records. They decided that forum was not a thing they needed regardless of that.
This forum is not VMP and is not affiliated to them. Why should we give them a whole forum to themselves, or allow them to swamp the clubs forum? Why are they more important than other clubs?
I also completely agree with everything @Dead C has said over the last few days about the quality of the conversation in those threads and how it’d actually be better focused with 1 thread and exclusives in the store...
As to the poll results. I have two theories. One, people who haven’t got past the other forum closings. Two lurkers who are only interested in the VMP release info and arrogantly. In my opinion, expect this forum to pick up VMP’s slack.
Enoch
Well-Known Member
No one, at least staff wise, expected this vote to any other way. But this was more a conversation piece to move it out of other threads and into one thread. Also it is a little early to make major changes to anything, again more about the conversation, but also to @Joe Mac's point the idea of this forum is not to be VMP forum 2.0 which is how it kind of being used in some ways, many of the same threads have been recreated. There isn't any problem with that besides the VMP threads because that is how VMP used their forum to specifically promote their stuff. This forum doesn't want to be an arm to promoting any company and that is why most company related things have on thread for people to keep specific talk about it there outside of posting an online deal or pre-order from them. VMP having an overwhelming presence does appear to give a bias toward them. I that that is understandable right now because of where we came from, but I do think it should be constantly evaluated. Which is line with @Joe Mac's post below.
The percentage of members who are lurkers is quite small, the active user stats are surprisingly high.
roffle24
Active Member
Even if you take the poll out of it... just look at the thread view count numbers for the club forums. Hell just the rap and classics threads together have more activity than almost every other thread combined.
Anthology - 33k, Essentials - 27k, Store Thread - 25k, RHH - 9k, Classics - 9k
All other threads combined - 20k and I rounded up.
Unless the VMP portion of this site is intentionally stunted, it's going to be far and beyond the most popular areas of discussion. The only other thread that comes close to that amount of activity is another thread that came from VMP... the PIF thread.
It feels like the negativity of the forum is out of pure spite. People don't want to give VMP anything extra, even though their threads are the majority of activity on all of the site. This thread alone has more activity than some that have been up since the site launched, and this is about discussing what we should do with their threads... not even actual vinyl discussion.
Anthology - 33k, Essentials - 27k, Store Thread - 25k, RHH - 9k, Classics - 9k
All other threads combined - 20k and I rounded up.
Unless the VMP portion of this site is intentionally stunted, it's going to be far and beyond the most popular areas of discussion. The only other thread that comes close to that amount of activity is another thread that came from VMP... the PIF thread.
It feels like the negativity of the forum is out of pure spite. People don't want to give VMP anything extra, even though their threads are the majority of activity on all of the site. This thread alone has more activity than some that have been up since the site launched, and this is about discussing what we should do with their threads... not even actual vinyl discussion.
Joe Mac
Well-Known Member
What makes a user active and what makes them a lurker though? Unless you’re posting enough to be known to the community I’d still class you as lurker even if you do post occasionally.
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Joe Mac
Well-Known Member
So I suppose that’s a question as to what we want to define ourselves as going forward. Do we want to be an unofficial VMP forum or so we want to be our own thing and treat VMP as yet another club no preferential treatment, no detrimental treatment.
As to those numbers, fine, but how much of that is constructive conversation and how much of it is a continued shit show? I just see complaints and very little music talk. There is nothing in the conversations in those threads that I’ve seen that would be stunted or confusing in a single thread. I’m 100% at common purpose with @Dead C on that.
I am not, and most people on my side that I know are not, acting out of spite or bitterness but out of a desire to move past what was into what could be and this place could be so much more than the place people come to talk about a club that didn’t want them.
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Joe Mac
Well-Known Member
I don't know I'm just looking at a squiggly line on a graph in the admin panel
Ooooh magic admin powers, jealous!
Actually not jealous, with great power comes great responsibility, I run from that second one haha!
Enoch
Well-Known Member
you could argue the pro-VMPers are doing the same
roffle24
Active Member
Are any of the other subs even demanding multiple threads at this point? If they are, then I'm all for giving them to them. I see no problem with multiple clubs having multiple threads if it warrants it.
Joe Mac
Well-Known Member
You see I don’t think they do, I don’t think any club does, that’s my point.
Enoch
Well-Known Member
This completely unfair unless we are going to nix all club threads
roffle24
Active Member
It doesn't, but it's what drives me to come here for the most part. If the VMP portion of the site is stunted, I would just be less likely to be here that much. I greatly prefer reddit to be the source of info and discussion. Most people here that I enjoy their opinion do not frequent reddit, though... as well as...
The reddit threads really aren't that active at all at the moment. That may change long term with the structure of the sub-reddit, but right now it's pretty much exactly how it was even before the VMP forums closed.
I mean... this is the case for any club thread that exists. It just so happens the VMP ones are much more popular so they provide more data. Honestly, I can't imagine the data gathered here is really that useful anyway.
mdmost
Well-Known Member
I don't really see people thinking this place needs VMP threads to survive. It's interesting that a lot of assumptions are being made on both sides about the side they are opposite of. I think there are people who want to discuss VMP records and the subs without having to go to the disorganized hellhole that is Reddit. This place is comfortable in the same way the old forum was. It's no different to me than the people who signed up for Anthology and did not want to be forced to go to Facebook to talk about it. Now they have that option here. I just don't see why there's so much consternation over whether to have VMP threads in a place that was only founded because we all came together via the VMP forum. It's not about free advertising for VMP. It's about giving those who wish it the ability to discuss VMP records or lament the issues they may be having with those.
Enoch
Well-Known Member
Except VMP linked to this thread from the message you go to when you try to access the old forum. So with that and VMP having more threads than any other club can easily been seen as advertisement even if there are a lot of negative things mentioned.
I get that but it is still unfair to permanently ban one club despite how much some people are over the club, hate it now, or the similar
Dead C
Well-Known Member
So... I was informed that there was a poll now. The problem with the poll is the problem with everything else surrounding this topic, it's an ALL OR NOTHING, situation. People are either for VMP or against VMP. I, personally, always believed that Anthology should have it's own thread. We also have a RIP VMP forum thread. I just believe that the individual tracks should be consolidated and that, since exclusives are basically pre-orders at this point, they should be allowed to be posted along with everything else in the pre-order thread. They only pop up once a week on a designated day and are typically just color variants. They aren't guess threads anymore, so they don't have much value individually. That's only merging 3 threads that account for a total of 3 albums a month. There's no option for a variation like that?
Here are the facts that I posted on my status, which just got a ton of pushback, for some reason. Keep in mind, it's MY status, but people are pissed off at me for having one.
There hasn't been a comment on the Essentials thread since Thurs. R&HH only has any action, because people were discussing Bandana & are now freaking out that Outkast was likely oversold. Classics mostly discusses swapping the ROTM & missing Nat Turners. Exclusives thread is about how EVERYTHING is delayed.
That was simply a response to the "we have so much to discuss that it will be a clusterfuck" narrative. Not sure how combining those 3 will create a "clusterfuck" and overwhelming content, but... whatever.
I do know that it was initially suggested that nobody should be allowed to mention VMP exclusives in the pre-orders thread and we pushed back against that, because we thought it was wrong to keep us divided like that. It's not up to me and I doubt most people care what I think anyway, but as long as anybody who has expressed that they feel isolated to the VMP threads because everyone else is so "anti-VMP" and negative elsewhere, is aware that we don't all feel that way, that's all that matters to me. I would love to see them discuss hip hop in the hip hop thread outside of R&HH, or discuss jazz outside of Classics. It feels like some folks have unnecessarily isolated themselves, because the VMP name has a familiarity and they feel comfortable there. I can understand that. But, if that is true, I hope that multiple threads doesn't just operate like a larger cage for anyone, when we have specific and related threads elsewhere on the forum that would only be that much greater if you were involved.
If it's hurting, scaring, upsetting, or even just irritating people to take their threads away from them, I guess I have no place to debate that. Some of these people might feel like they are having their forum ripped away from them all over again. I understand that logic and, up until this point, have only been responding to the logic presented that makes zero sense to me, BECAUSE... it makes zerosense to me. Maybe it doesn't need to. Some things are more emotional decisions.
Another thing that I'm aware of is that some of us are responding to this in different ways, because we have very different contexts connected to it. Just like some folks might feel like their space it being torn away again, or like they are isolated here -- the reasons for which we can debate - my perspective comes from a similar, yet entirely opposite, place. I touched on it before, but there are people outside of here, who still claim that we are a toxic community and that our forum deserved to be taken from us. I don't believe that. When we come here and there are members expressing that they feel like we're all going to be toxic here, before we even get off the ground, I wonder why they even came. That, to me, is the real toxicity. So, when the idea that these threads are necessary because it's a refuge from toxicity is even hinted at, it pisses me off. Most of us came here with optimism. If you want your threads because you honestly believe that there is value in having so many, I disagree, but who cares if I do? If it's because you have nowhere else on this forum where you feel as if you are able to even mention VMP, I'm genuinely sorry that you feel that way. Maybe that issue is being created from both sides. I can only promise to try and defend your right to do that, if I ever see someone getting swarmed for it.
So.. that's that.
But, while nothing is likely to be more important than not making people feel like their threads are being torn away, here are the reasons that I see against keeping the threads separate. One is that people have also clearly expressed being uncomfortable coming into the Vinyl Clubs section, because it's like a massive VMP ad. That's one issue with having this poll in a section where the people voting are only the ones who feel comfortable here already. Connected to that is the fact that we want our own identity here and giving so much unnecessary shine to the club that booted us works against that aim to a certain extent. The one thing that personally upsets me is that, when we got the 48hr notice, we were instructed to go build a new place to advertise for and promote them -- the continuation of maintaining a reddit page being part of that. It's that hubris which has kept some of us still pushing back against them, while others continue to carry their torch.
That being said, I hope everyone feels heard here and that everyone feels welcome. Whatever can be done to support that, I will get behind. I'm not going to fight against your right to have that. If you say weird shit to me that doesn't make any sense, my brain short circuits, but I'm going to do my best to just let that slide by for now, as well.
Here are the facts that I posted on my status, which just got a ton of pushback, for some reason. Keep in mind, it's MY status, but people are pissed off at me for having one.
There hasn't been a comment on the Essentials thread since Thurs. R&HH only has any action, because people were discussing Bandana & are now freaking out that Outkast was likely oversold. Classics mostly discusses swapping the ROTM & missing Nat Turners. Exclusives thread is about how EVERYTHING is delayed.
That was simply a response to the "we have so much to discuss that it will be a clusterfuck" narrative. Not sure how combining those 3 will create a "clusterfuck" and overwhelming content, but... whatever.
I do know that it was initially suggested that nobody should be allowed to mention VMP exclusives in the pre-orders thread and we pushed back against that, because we thought it was wrong to keep us divided like that. It's not up to me and I doubt most people care what I think anyway, but as long as anybody who has expressed that they feel isolated to the VMP threads because everyone else is so "anti-VMP" and negative elsewhere, is aware that we don't all feel that way, that's all that matters to me. I would love to see them discuss hip hop in the hip hop thread outside of R&HH, or discuss jazz outside of Classics. It feels like some folks have unnecessarily isolated themselves, because the VMP name has a familiarity and they feel comfortable there. I can understand that. But, if that is true, I hope that multiple threads doesn't just operate like a larger cage for anyone, when we have specific and related threads elsewhere on the forum that would only be that much greater if you were involved.
If it's hurting, scaring, upsetting, or even just irritating people to take their threads away from them, I guess I have no place to debate that. Some of these people might feel like they are having their forum ripped away from them all over again. I understand that logic and, up until this point, have only been responding to the logic presented that makes zero sense to me, BECAUSE... it makes zerosense to me. Maybe it doesn't need to. Some things are more emotional decisions.
Another thing that I'm aware of is that some of us are responding to this in different ways, because we have very different contexts connected to it. Just like some folks might feel like their space it being torn away again, or like they are isolated here -- the reasons for which we can debate - my perspective comes from a similar, yet entirely opposite, place. I touched on it before, but there are people outside of here, who still claim that we are a toxic community and that our forum deserved to be taken from us. I don't believe that. When we come here and there are members expressing that they feel like we're all going to be toxic here, before we even get off the ground, I wonder why they even came. That, to me, is the real toxicity. So, when the idea that these threads are necessary because it's a refuge from toxicity is even hinted at, it pisses me off. Most of us came here with optimism. If you want your threads because you honestly believe that there is value in having so many, I disagree, but who cares if I do? If it's because you have nowhere else on this forum where you feel as if you are able to even mention VMP, I'm genuinely sorry that you feel that way. Maybe that issue is being created from both sides. I can only promise to try and defend your right to do that, if I ever see someone getting swarmed for it.
So.. that's that.
But, while nothing is likely to be more important than not making people feel like their threads are being torn away, here are the reasons that I see against keeping the threads separate. One is that people have also clearly expressed being uncomfortable coming into the Vinyl Clubs section, because it's like a massive VMP ad. That's one issue with having this poll in a section where the people voting are only the ones who feel comfortable here already. Connected to that is the fact that we want our own identity here and giving so much unnecessary shine to the club that booted us works against that aim to a certain extent. The one thing that personally upsets me is that, when we got the 48hr notice, we were instructed to go build a new place to advertise for and promote them -- the continuation of maintaining a reddit page being part of that. It's that hubris which has kept some of us still pushing back against them, while others continue to carry their torch.
That being said, I hope everyone feels heard here and that everyone feels welcome. Whatever can be done to support that, I will get behind. I'm not going to fight against your right to have that. If you say weird shit to me that doesn't make any sense, my brain short circuits, but I'm going to do my best to just let that slide by for now, as well.
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mdmost
Well-Known Member
Didn't VMP only do that because they were giving people who may have used the forums and not known of its demise a way to still find the people they used to talk with? I doubt that link stays up into perpetuity, especially when they relaunch whatever their next online presence is.
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