Definitive Audiophile pressings

LeeVing said:
Have you heard a clean/quiet RL cut?
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No I mean I'm sure it would kill it... But it's the "clean" part that I think would be damn near impossible for me to find. The thing with these JPs from Ella... If they say NM they are 100% as advertised so I don't even need to worry about it. I feel like it would take me a year and set me back about $1000 before I found a clean RL that my damned 2M Black actually liked.
 
Mather said:
No I mean I'm sure it would kill it... But it's the "clean" part that I think would be damn near impossible for me to find. The thing with these JPs from Ella... If they say NM they are 100% as advertised so I don't even need to worry about it. I feel like it would take me a year and set me back about $1000 before I found a clean RL that my damned 2M Black actually liked.
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yeah. My RL isn't the most quiet, but it is still better than any other pressing I've heard, including the Pallas pressing of the 2014 reissue.

That reissue sounds fine. It's quiet, but is lacking.

You could luck out and find your RL in a box of records near a dumpster....like I did.
 
LeeVing said:
yeah. My RL isn't the most quiet, but it is still better than any other pressing I've heard, including the Pallas pressing of the 2014 reissue.

That reissue sounds fine. It's quiet, but is lacking.
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One of my locals has Zep I, II and IV sealed Classics Records pressings. $500, $600 and $600. I could trade in for a couple of them likely but... I just can't. I think Zep is fundamentally badly recorded music, so it's all just degrees of not great... I can't pay that much for the best degree of not great...

Well that and I'm certain AP are going to repress all of these using the Classics Records plates that they own in the coming year or so...
 
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LeeVing said:
You could luck out and find your RL in a box of records near a dumpster....like I did.
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I'll clarify this. I used to work at a brain injury rehab center in Carbondale, IL. One of the clients lived on his own in an apartment. He was somewhat always in a manic state, but ok once you got to know him. He was switching all his albums to CD. The gear was crap, but there were some keepers in the box. LZII is the only one I can remember coming from that box, but I'm sure I still have some others.

This was back in 2002-ish?? So a different time to find good records in a box by a dumpster.
 
LeeVing said:
I'll clarify this. I used to work at a brain injury rehab center in Carbondale. One of the clients lived on his own in an apartment. He was somewhat always in a manic state, but ok once you got to know him. He was switching all his albums to CD. The gear was crap, but there were some keepers in the box. LZII is the only one I can remember coming from that box, but I'm sure I still have some others.
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That's unreal.
 
Lee Newman said:
Part of the idea of these was that this was the best it would be now, and it would be worse in the future. I get the less steps in the chain means better clarity/higher resolution/etc... but part of the sell was get it now because it won't ever be this good again.

AP can and has made some records sound better than one steps without a reduction in steps. (edit which hurst my next point: It is possible and likely that they sound better because they are earlier generation playbacks of the tape)

If the reduction in steps does not ensure best clarity/resolution/sound/etc.... and it is possible to stop the degradation of the master for all future copies... The one step serves no purpose.

I'd be curious to know how many/which of the DSD files were sent through the Plangent process as it is possible that this is what causes some one steps to out perform other audiophile releases.
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I don’t think the “get this now because it will never sound this good again” was because of tape degradation…it was because of them just saying it’s limited due to licensing and sounds great. It’s purely marketing speak. Chad does this all the time with “buy now cry later”.

As far as I’ve seen, plangent was used for some MFSL SACDs. Don’t know about the vinyl. Jamie Howarth spoke about it on Hoffman and said the Love Over Gold SACD used plangent but the vinyl did not. Wouldn’t be shocked if the Dead titles used it since a ton of their records use Plangent.

As for comparing the AP to the MoFi, I think the difference in sound is due to different engineers and possibly different source tapes than it is the actual pressing process. The mastering chain/equipment and who cuts it can have a bigger impact on the sound than the source in a lot of cases. MoFi seems to want to mimic what’s on the master tape. Chad and co don’t necessarily do that. I know KG says he likes to buy an original pressing to hear what those sound like and that can influence how he cuts.

Chad is very squirrely about the tape sources they use and I believe for Folk Singer, AP just used the classic records plates cut by Bernie. Back then, Bernie and others used to cut the 33 and 45s while they had access to tapes even if they only planned to release one version. Chad has capitalized on that and negotiated the rights to reissue those unreleased cuts in many cases. I haven’t heard an OG pressing nor have I heard the master tape (obviously). But I wouldn’t be surprised if the AP and MoFi use different tapes as the source.

The more fair comparison is the MoFis that they released on regular MoFi compared to the 1 steps. Same engineer and everything. And in the two or three cases so far (Pearl, Tapestry and Folk Singer), the one steps are better. Whether it’s the vinyl formulation or something else, I’m not sure.
 
MikeH said:
I don’t think the “get this now because it will never sound this good again” was because of tape degradation…it was because of them just saying it’s limited due to licensing and sounds great. It’s purely marketing speak. Chad does this all the time with “buy now cry later”.

As far as I’ve seen, plangent was used for some MFSL SACDs. Don’t know about the vinyl. Jamie Howarth spoke about it on Hoffman and said the Love Over Gold SACD used plangent but the vinyl did not. Wouldn’t be shocked if the Dead titles used it since a ton of their records use Plangent.

As for comparing the AP to the MoFi, I think the difference in sound is due to different engineers and possibly different source tapes than it is the actual pressing process. The mastering chain/equipment and who cuts it can have a bigger impact on the sound than the source in a lot of cases. MoFi seems to want to mimic what’s on the master tape. Chad and co don’t necessarily do that. I know KG says he likes to buy an original pressing to hear what those sound like and that can influence how he cuts.

Chad is very squirrely about the tape sources they use and I believe for Folk Singer, AP just used the classic records plates cut by Bernie. Back then, Bernie and others used to cut the 33 and 45s while they had access to tapes even if they only planned to release one version. Chad has capitalized on that and negotiated the rights to reissue those unreleased cuts in many cases. I haven’t heard an OG pressing nor have I heard the master tape (obviously). But I wouldn’t be surprised if the AP and MoFi use different tapes as the source.

The more fair comparison is the MoFis that they released on regular MoFi compared to the 1 steps. Same engineer and everything. And in the two or three cases so far (Pearl, Tapestry and Folk Singer), the one steps are better. Whether it’s the vinyl formulation or something else, I’m not sure.
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Yeah that’s how I read it. I looked back over the marketing and there is very little mention of the master tapes and what’s there is deliberately ambiguous for reasons that have since become clear. All the sales pitch about quality is all over the one step and the lack of sonic degradation in comparison to the standard 3 step.
 
Turbo said:
But are you old enough to remember the indian-head test pattern when TV is off-air?
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Definitely! Saw them as a kid in the morning waiting for the broadcast to start around 6:00am. Also remembering going to the grocery store with Dad to check TV and radio tubes on the tester at the front of the store. A long, long time ago.
 
Mather said:
Yeah looking at cogs most even VG RL copies are going for about $300+ so unless someone with a head injury happens to leave one next to a dumpster that I am in the immediate vicinity of, I'm likely never going to hear one of those.
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I’ve sniped 3 or 4 RL copies over the years on eBay all $20 or less from people listing the record and not realizing what they have. It takes a lot of patience and persistence though haha! Lots of checking eBay. Once you know what to look for (correct pressing ID on labels, tight deadwax, etc) it’s pretty easy to spot. I have never been able to get one above VG though. The one I decided to keep was the Monarch pressing, RL SS on both sides. I’ve also had Presswell copies, one that skipped and one that didn’t, and one CTH RL/LH hybrid. I haven’t seen many in the last couple years though that weren’t priced accordingly.

I should note that the George Piros cuts are very very good too and can actually be found clean. I had a clean GP as my player forever. I don’t think the price difference between Ludwig copies and Piros copies are really justified. Never heard any other pressings outside of GP or RL copies though.
 
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Mather said:
One of my locals has Zep I, II and IV sealed Classics Records pressings. $500, $600 and $600. I could trade in for a couple of them likely but... I just can't. I think Zep is fundamentally badly recorded music, so it's all just degrees of not great... I can't pay that much for the best degree of not great...

Well that and I'm certain AP are going to repress all of these using the Classics Records plates that they own in the coming year or so...
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Don't count on it. He may have the plates, which were very heavily used, but not the rights.

Rights to Zep are near impossible.

And now even more impossible due to the fiasco with Classic - the Zep business is what brought Classic down.

But you never know.
 
Mather said:
No I mean I'm sure it would kill it... But it's the "clean" part that I think would be damn near impossible for me to find. The thing with these JPs from Ella... If they say NM they are 100% as advertised so I don't even need to worry about it. I feel like it would take me a year and set me back about $1000 before I found a clean RL that my damned 2M Black actually liked.
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All this RL talk sent me to my small stack of Zeppelin records to see what's there, and turns out I have a 1972 German reissue with RL in the runout of Side 1. (Led Zeppelin - Led Zeppelin II. Odd that there aren't any for-sale listings for this pressing, nor is there any sales data.)

Gave it a listen and OMG, it's dynamic as hell. What's really striking is that the fucking drum kit, in its entirety, is completely in the room, yet somehow this doesn't dominate the music as the guitars, bass, vocal, and flow of sound across the soundstage all are represented very well. The first couple of notes of Whole Lotta Love seemed like they might be a bit hot, but they're not, just very crisp. No sibilance, nothing that's too much. It's grand.

My only point of comparison is a 1973 US reissue (Led Zeppelin - Led Zeppelin II). Gave this a listen and I can't even believe it's from the same recording. The drum kit is limited to this very tiny space in the upper right corner of the soundstage and has no real impact at all. Not nearly the dynamics of the German pressing, not as crisp, etc. Also kind of interesting is the records themselves look very different. The below photo shows the German (RL) vinyl on the left, US on the right. They really look like they were cut differently (and it's not just a matter of the angle of the light, as it might appear from the photos).

As for Side 2, unfortunately, both sound (and look) very similar, neither being nearly as dynamic as Side 1 of the German RL pressing. They just sound average.



LZII.jpg
 
Russ I said:
All this RL talk sent me to my small stack of Zeppelin records to see what's there, and turns out I have a 1972 German reissue with RL in the runout of Side 1. (Led Zeppelin - Led Zeppelin II. Odd that there aren't any for-sale listings for this pressing, nor is there any sales data.)

Gave it a listen and OMG, it's dynamic as hell. What's really striking is that the fucking drum kit, in its entirety, is completely in the room, yet somehow this doesn't dominate the music as the guitars, bass, vocal, and flow of sound across the soundstage all are represented very well. The first couple of notes of Whole Lotta Love seemed like they might be a bit hot, but they're not, just very crisp. No sibilance, nothing that's too much. It's grand.

My only point of comparison is a 1973 US reissue (Led Zeppelin - Led Zeppelin II). Gave this a listen and I can't even believe it's from the same recording. The drum kit is limited to this very tiny space in the upper right corner of the soundstage and has no real impact at all. Not nearly the dynamics of the German pressing, not as crisp, etc. Also kind of interesting is the records themselves look very different. The below photo shows the German (RL) vinyl on the left, US on the right. They really look like they were cut differently (and it's not just a matter of the angle of the light, as it might appear from the photos).

As for Side 2, unfortunately, both sound (and look) very similar, neither being nearly as dynamic as Side 1 of the German RL pressing. They just sound average.



View attachment 147698
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I have this 1974 German “STERLING RL” copy of Houses of the Holy, my fav Zep album, and it is also really dynamic and just a fun listen, with only minor surface noise.
www.discogs.com

Led Zeppelin - Houses Of The Holy

View credits, reviews, tracks and shop for the 1973 Vinyl release of "Houses Of The Holy" on Discogs.
www.discogs.com www.discogs.com
 
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