Equipment Recommendations - The Home For New System and Upgrade Advice

Joe Mac said:
The law of diminishing wallet doesn’t agree! That’s nearly 3ish times the price and the option being stepped up from is not cheap!
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This was exactly the argument I had with myself over the DUO, I think you need to set a budget and stick to it or you're always going to be chasing "whatever". That's not to say there isn't an improvement moving up, but really, don't you kind of need to draw a line somewhere?
 
Joe Mac said:
i think sometimes we might need to remember what a lot of money is and how what some of us are spending, even in the lower to mid range; is extravagant.
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100%
This entire hobby is purely a luxury, and is somewhat extravagant on it's own. There is zero logical argument to owning records in modern times, and especially at modern prices.

Now having said all that, if I really want the next "wow" factor I generally assume it's going to require 2-3x of the retail cost to get there. And living on a real world (but significantly lucky) budget, I need to keep those numbers in mind if I ever want to save up enough to make those jumps. But never forget that you can always find stuff used, and you would normally be selling gear to get there too.

Having said all that, getting to that next level is expensive anyway around it. And I think once you're over a certain point it becomes harder to justify the next jump. Even if I had the funds to jump to the next level... a new dinning room table and chairs sounds mighty good too. So does a vacation once the world re-opens. To make the jump on the whole analog side of the system.. well now we're talking about a significant down payment on a new car. The level above that is more than I put down on my first house. I get it.

But if I was going to jump to something else, big IF, I'd be looking at $4-5K tables. Factor in the whole package of the Prime 21+... well it's right in line with what the next level would look like. So the real issue is why'd they have to make it so damn sexy this time, lol.
 
displayname said:
100%
This entire hobby is purely a luxury, and is somewhat extravagant on it's own. There is zero logical argument to owning records in modern times, and especially at modern prices.

Now having said all that, if I really want the next "wow" factor I generally assume it's going to require 2-3x of the retail cost to get there. And living on a real world (but significantly lucky) budget, I need to keep those numbers in mind if I ever want to save up enough to make those jumps. But never forget that you can always find stuff used, and you would normally be selling gear to get there too.

Having said all that, getting to that next level is expensive anyway around it. And I think once you're over a certain point it becomes harder to justify the next jump. Even if I had the funds to jump to the next level... a new dinning room table and chairs sounds mighty good too. So does a vacation once the world re-opens. To make the jump on the whole analog side of the system.. well now we're talking about a significant down payment on a new car. The level above that is more than I put down on my first house. I get it.

But if I was going to jump to something else, big IF, I'd be looking at $4-5K tables. Factor in the whole package of the Prime 21+... well it's right in line with what the next level would look like. So the real issue is why'd they have to make it so damn sexy this time, lol.
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That begins to get to the point where, for me, even if I can afford it, that I feel gross about spending that much money on something such as this. That’s just me though!

I just feel a little bit off in seeing someone who had spent an enormous amount of money (which $2-3k is) being told that the next logical step is something costing $6.5k!
 
Joe Mac said:
That begins to get to the point where, for me, even if I can afford it, that I feel gross about spending that much money on something such as this. That’s just me though!

I just feel a little bit off in seeing someone who had spent an enormous amount of money (which $2-3k is) being told that the next logical step is something costing $6.5k!
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I completely get that. It's kind of a lesson in being happy with what you have too. In my opinion, it's a fairly blunt reality check. You can make tweaks and lateral changes, but going from a $2K TT to a $2.4K TT is likely going to leave you wanting unless you just wanted a new sound signature and change to something significantly different.

Also, you have to keep in mind that $6.5K is the package. That's TT, cartridge, and cables. All higher end stuff.
If you took your cart from an existing $2K-ish TT, and kept your current cables, you're looking at $4.5K. Sell off your $2K TT for at least $1K, well now you're really not writing a check much bigger then you did to get your last TT.

But either way, if that price doesn't sound worth it to get to the next "wow" factor, then don't worry about it. There's still records to buy, records to spin, and feet to be tapped. No reason to feel like you need to drop $6.5K just because it exists. The reality check is that a $2-3K TT is likely a VERY good turntable, and you don't really need to ever go beyond that unless you're just chasing the dragon or have the financial means to allow those purchases to not be "big" purchases in your life.

Always remember that to 99% of people even spending $2K on a stereo system (with everything) is crazy. But to a huge number of people, spending $20K to "try out hifi" is an expense they really don't think too much about. Given the way this VPI package is positioned, I think they are chasing some of those people.
 
displayname said:
I completely get that. It's kind of a lesson in being happy with what you have too. In my opinion, it's a fairly blunt reality check. You can make tweaks and lateral changes, but going from a $2K TT to a $2.4K TT is likely going to leave you wanting unless you just wanted a new sound signature and change to something significantly different.

Also, you have to keep in mind that $6.5K is the package. That's TT, cartridge, and cables. All higher end stuff.
If you took your cart from an existing $2K-ish TT, and kept your current cables, you're looking at $4.5K. Sell off your $2K TT for at least $1K, well now you're really not writing a check much bigger then you did to get your last TT.

But either way, if that price doesn't sound worth it to get to the next "wow" factor, then don't worry about it. There's still records to buy, records to spin, and feet to be tapped. No reason to feel like you need to drop $6.5K just because it exists. The reality check is that a $2-3K TT is likely a VERY good turntable, and you don't really need to ever go beyond that unless you're just chasing the dragon or have the financial means to allow those purchases to not be "big" purchases in your life.

Always remember that to 99% of people even spending $2K on a stereo system (with everything) is crazy. But to a huge number of people, spending $20K to "try out hifi" is an expense they really don't think too much about. Given the way this VPI package is positioned, I think they are chasing some of those people.
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I don’t think you quite understand what I’m trying to say but anyway. If you’re willing to spend $20k to test out a hifi there should be a 100% “you’re too fucking rich and there are children in food poverty in your first world country” tax.

And if there’s nothing worth buying that represents a step up for 1.5x or 2x the cost of your turntable that costs $2k then the hifi world really is fuct.
 
displayname said:
I completely get that. It's kind of a lesson in being happy with what you have too. In my opinion, it's a fairly blunt reality check. You can make tweaks and lateral changes, but going from a $2K TT to a $2.4K TT is likely going to leave you wanting unless you just wanted a new sound signature and change to something significantly different.

Also, you have to keep in mind that $6.5K is the package. That's TT, cartridge, and cables. All higher end stuff.
If you took your cart from an existing $2K-ish TT, and kept your current cables, you're looking at $4.5K. Sell off your $2K TT for at least $1K, well now you're really not writing a check much bigger then you did to get your last TT.

But either way, if that price doesn't sound worth it to get to the next "wow" factor, then don't worry about it. There's still records to buy, records to spin, and feet to be tapped. No reason to feel like you need to drop $6.5K just because it exists. The reality check is that a $2-3K TT is likely a VERY good turntable, and you don't really need to ever go beyond that unless you're just chasing the dragon or have the financial means to allow those purchases to not be "big" purchases in your life.

Always remember that to 99% of people even spending $2K on a stereo system (with everything) is crazy. But to a huge number of people, spending $20K to "try out hifi" is an expense they really don't think too much about. Given the way this VPI package is positioned, I think they are chasing some of those people.
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Joe Mac said:
I don’t think you quite understand what I’m trying to say but anyway. If you’re willing to spend $20k to test out a hifi there should be a 100% “you’re too fucking rich and there are children in food poverty in your first world country” tax.

And if there’s nothing worth buying that represents a step up for 1.5x or 2x the cost of your turntable that costs $2k then the hifi world really is fuct.
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It's perception and our own "threshold" so to speak. Honestly, I remember getting back into the hobby just over 3 years ago and I specifically remember saying, "This is all I need" when I had a U-Turn with a built in phono and a pair of powered speakers, lol.

Well, that didn't exactly pan out. But, once I made the choice that I was going to move up the ladder I did have a budget pool in mind, meaning, I didn't want, or felt the need to spend more than 2-3K per component, that was my "acceptable:" level. Now in that time there have been some components that got a lot of shuffling, while others were very much "one and done". The pool theory being all the components are about the same price level, which in turn "usually" gets a good synergy going within the system.

So ya, there is always better, and that always comes at a cost of course, but that diminishing return issue is a tough pill to swallow sometimes. As @Joe Mac mentioned, and I've said lately, I'm kind of looking at things in a "just because I can, should I", that doesn't mean it's right, but it's right for me. That "next level" jump @displayname is looking at is a real thing too, but I think it starts to cater to a smaller and smaller demographic as he mentioned. I mean, I sometimes look at what I have and still get a little sick to my stomach ".........have I really spent THAT MUCH on this gear?!" But hey, to each his own, the important thing really is to enjoy what you have and or can afford and there's nothing wrong with A. Trying to improve your system with smaller, logical bumps and B. Nothing wrong with "oooooh" and "ahhhh"-ing over "high end" gear ;)
 
Joe Mac said:
I don’t think you quite understand what I’m trying to say but anyway. If you’re willing to spend $20k to test out a hifi there should be a 100% “you’re too fucking rich and there are children in food poverty in your first world country” tax.

And if there’s nothing worth buying that represents a step up for 1.5x or 2x the cost of your turntable that costs $2k then the hifi world really is fuct.
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I get what you're saying. Believe me I do.

But not everyone feels the same way. Houses with several acres and 10,000 sqft of living space exist. Personal planes and yachts exist. Lamborghinis exist. Literally toilets made of gold exist. I completely understand if a TT like this falls into that spectrum of needless luxury. It's level of full associated gear in a system would easily fall into that spectrum for most people.

I get it. And I get not wanting to support that lifestyle as whole.
 
AnthonyI said:
It's perception and our own "threshold" so to speak. Honestly, I remember getting back into the hobby just over 3 years ago and I specifically remember saying, "This is all I need" when I had a U-Turn with a built in phono and a pair of powered speakers, lol.

Well, that didn't exactly pan out. But, once I made the choice that I was going to move up the ladder I did have a budget pool in mind, meaning, I didn't want, or felt the need to spend more than 2-3K per component, that was my "acceptable:" level. Now in the time there have been some components that got a lot of shuffling, while others were very much "one and done". The pool theory being all the components are about the same price level, which in turn "usually" gets a good synergy going within the system.

So ya, there is always better, and that always comes at a cost of course, but that diminishing return issue is a tough pill to swallow sometimes. As @Joe Mac mentioned, and I've said lately, I'm kind of looking at things in a "just because I can, should I", that doesn't mean it's right, but it's right for me. That "next level" jump @displayname is looking at is a real thing to, but I think it starts to cater to a smaller and smaller demographic as he mentioned. I mean, I sometimes look at what I have and still get a little sick to my stomach ".........have I really spent THAT MUCH on this gear?!" But hey, to each his own, the important thing really is to enjoy what you have and or can afford and there's nothing wrong with A. Trying to improve your system with smaller, logical bumps and B. Nothing wrong with "oooooh" and "ahhhh"-ing over high end gear ;)
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Yes and no. I think a realisation that all these 000s mean something and that talking about doubling or tripling huge amounts of money it isn’t quite so “logical”. Salivating over an expensive tt isn’t necessarily any worse than having a poster of an F40 on your wall but no one is saying that it’s the logical next step up from, say, a bmw m5!
 
Joe Mac said:
Yes and no. I think a realisation that all these 000s mean something and that talking about doubling or tripling huge amounts of money it isn’t quite so “logical”. Salivating over an expensive tt isn’t necessarily any worse than having a poster of an F40 on your wall but no one is saying that it’s the logical next step up from, say, a bmw m5!
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No, I completely see what your saying and maybe we're over defining the words here like "logical", there was a time when I said the only "logical" move from the Insight was a DUO, or what's the point. So I see your point, and I also understand what @displayname is saying as well. Logical falls into the same category as "the best", those things will never be the same thing to any two people.

I mean, if we start drilling this down too far, you're going to feel guilty spending $25 on an album because there ARE children and adults who don't have 2 sets of clothes or a guarateed meal 3 times a day. So I think it important to keep all of this in "conversational" points of view.
 
displayname said:
I get what you're saying. Believe me I do.

But not everyone feels the same way. Houses with several acres and 10,000 sqft of living space exist. Personal planes and yachts exist. Lamborghinis exist. Literally toilets made of gold exist. I completely understand if a TT like this falls into that spectrum of needless luxury. It's level of full associated gear in a system would easily fall into that spectrum for most people.

I get it. And I get not wanting to support that lifestyle as whole.
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Yeah maybe I suppose I always liked that this place had a sense of perspective and that it wasn’t a Hoffman esque orgy of needing to spend x, y or z (or x y or z extra) for your start/upgrade. I even liked that the “super expensive stuff” threads often had a keen sense of mocking irony to them.
 
Joe Mac said:
Yeah maybe I suppose I always liked that this place had a sense of perspective and that it wasn’t a Hoffman esque orgy of needing to spend x, y or z (or x y or z extra) for your start/upgrade. I even liked that the “super expensive stuff” threads often had a keen sense of mocking irony to them.
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I get what you're saying, and I'll keep that in mind with future positioning.

Let me reposition my statements:
I personally find my Ultradeck, highly impressive and I think it offers expectational sound at any level.
Personally I would prefer to spend $1000 budget on a cartridge upgrade and or various tweaks to squeeze the last bit out of this table rather than investing into a $3,500 turntable. Not to say that TT's in that price range don't potentially offer an upgrade, because many of them come with higher end cartridges, or tweak items such as higher quality feet that I might add to (or not be able to add) my $2K-ish turntable.

IF I was to ever feel the need to upgrade beyond my existing turntable, I personally would prefer to save up to where I could invest at least $4-5K on the turntable because I personally feel by making that level of investment I would be reaching levels of quality and engineering standards that no level of tweaks or upgrades would allow me to reach on my $2K table. But I honestly don't foresee myself having the means or desire to do this in the near future, so this is ultimately eye candy for me, but maybe something else someone might want to consider if they are in a different position.

@Joe Mac - sincerely I apologize for positioning my opinions and preferences as fact. You're right to want to defend the tone and vibe of this forum, and I appreciate you for calling it out immediately. We don't need this forum to morph into Hoffman 2.0. We have a good thing going here, and it was good of you to put my tone in check. If anyone else feels they've been looked down on for any similar statements I might have made, I do apologize. I don't want this place to become somewhere that pushes people to be frustrated with the hobby, or to potentially leave the hobby because they feel they just can't get enjoyment out of it because everything below X-price point is trash. That's not fact, and that's not how I want the community here to be viewed.
 
displayname said:
I get what you're saying, and I'll keep that in mind with future positioning.

Let me reposition my statements:
I personally find my Ultradeck, highly impressive and I think it offers expectational sound at any level.
Personally I would prefer to spend $1000 budget on a cartridge upgrade and or various tweaks to squeeze the last bit out of this table rather than investing into a $3,500 turntable. Not to say that TT's in that price range don't potentially offer an upgrade, because many of them come with higher end cartridges, or tweak items such as higher quality feet that I might add to (or not be able to add) my $2K-ish turntable.

IF I was to ever feel the need to upgrade beyond my existing turntable, I personally would prefer to save up to where I could invest at least $4-5K on the turntable because I personally feel by making that level of investment I would be reaching levels of quality and engineering standards that no level of tweaks or upgrades would allow me to reach on my $2K table. But I honestly don't foresee myself having the means or desire to do this in the near future, so this is ultimately eye candy for me, but maybe something else someone might want to consider if they are in a different position.

@Joe Mac - sincerely I apologize for positioning my opinions and preferences as fact. You're right to want to defend the tone and vibe of this forum, and I appreciate you for calling it out immediately. We don't need this forum to morph into Hoffman 2.0. We have a good thing going here, and it was good of you to put my tone in check. If anyone else feels they've been looked down on for any similar statements I might have made, I do apologize. I don't want this place to become somewhere that pushes people to be frustrated with the hobby, or to potentially leave the hobby because they feel they just can't get enjoyment out of it because everything below X-price point is trash. That's not fact, and that's not how I want the community here to be viewed.
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I’m sorry too. I was too persistent too. I don’t know why but I’m feeling a bit sensitive to talk about big money on luxuries now and have no real reason to beyond the world isn’t fair! I shouldn’t have gone that hard and been that persistent about it.
 
displayname said:
I get what you're saying, and I'll keep that in mind with future positioning.

Let me reposition my statements:
I personally find my Ultradeck, highly impressive and I think it offers expectational sound at any level.
Personally I would prefer to spend $1000 budget on a cartridge upgrade and or various tweaks to squeeze the last bit out of this table rather than investing into a $3,500 turntable. Not to say that TT's in that price range don't potentially offer an upgrade, because many of them come with higher end cartridges, or tweak items such as higher quality feet that I might add to (or not be able to add) my $2K-ish turntable.

IF I was to ever feel the need to upgrade beyond my existing turntable, I personally would prefer to save up to where I could invest at least $4-5K on the turntable because I personally feel by making that level of investment I would be reaching levels of quality and engineering standards that no level of tweaks or upgrades would allow me to reach on my $2K table. But I honestly don't foresee myself having the means or desire to do this in the near future, so this is ultimately eye candy for me, but maybe something else someone might want to consider if they are in a different position.

@Joe Mac - sincerely I apologize for positioning my opinions and preferences as fact. You're right to want to defend the tone and vibe of this forum, and I appreciate you for calling it out immediately. We don't need this forum to morph into Hoffman 2.0. We have a good thing going here, and it was good of you to put my tone in check. If anyone else feels they've been looked down on for any similar statements I might have made, I do apologize. I don't want this place to become somewhere that pushes people to be frustrated with the hobby, or to potentially leave the hobby because they feel they just can't get enjoyment out of it because everything below X-price point is trash. That's not fact, and that's not how I want the community here to be viewed.
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Joe Mac said:
I’m sorry too. I was too persistent too. I don’t know why but I’m feeling a bit sensitive to talk about big money on luxuries now and have no real reason to beyond the world isn’t fair! I shouldn’t have gone that hard and been that persistent about it.
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Great! Now that you've both kissed and made up can we resume with our regularly scheduled programimg? 😉
 
Hollywood said:
Great! Now that you've both kissed and made up can we resume with our regularly scheduled programimg? 😉
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Can we reposition to talking about the style improvement from the Prime to the Prime 21?
I never thought the Prime was bad looking, but the lower feet and that top plate are just really hitting all the right buttons for me. Simple changes that go a long way!
 
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