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gouis said:
I mean I just think it's boring intellectually. I get how it scratches that itch that some people need games for (and I like in some mindless stuff) but with those I just get bored really quickly.
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I guess I just don't equate them with being mindless, or at least no more mindless than some non-procedurally generated games, or sports, or fighting games, or racing games, or puzzle games (or any other type of game where each play through will be different). but whatever, no use for me to go on and on about it, you just don't find the appeal in them and some people do... it is what it is.
 
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gouis said:
I mean I just think it's boring intellectually. I get how it scratches that itch that some people need games for (and I like in some mindless stuff) but with those I just get bored really quickly.
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The pleasure is in the mechanics, and in the constant game of trying to make the best of a random hand. It’s not mindless in the way a mobile clicker game is mindless. The best roguelikes are deeply strategic, and the repetition serves as a framework to allow the player to mine and exploit the gameplay to its fullest.

note: it’s not my favorite genre, but after Slay the Spire I have a better understanding of the appeal.
 
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kvetcha said:
The pleasure is in the mechanics, and in the constant game of trying to make the best of a random hand. It’s not mindless in the way a mobile clicker game is mindless. The best roguelikes are deeply strategic, and the repetition serves as a framework to allow the player to mine and exploit the gameplay to its fullest.

note: it’s not my favorite genre, but after Slay the Spire I have a better understanding of the appeal.
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Yeah I said I get the appeal but that I find them boring. That doesn’t mean I think everyone does.

Sometimes people think expressing an opinion means you’re trying to force your perspective on others.
 
gouis said:
Yeah I said I get the appeal but that I find them boring. That doesn’t mean I think everyone does.

Sometimes people think expressing an opinion means you’re trying to force your perspective on others.
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I think I read your post as calling the entire genre mindless, but, looking at it again, I was mistaken.
 
gouis said:
Yeah I said I get the appeal but that I find them boring. That doesn’t mean I think everyone does.

Sometimes people think expressing an opinion means you’re trying to force your perspective on others.
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it's not that I thought you were trying to force a perspective, but you did state that you don't understand why people like them. you called the developers lazy. you called the games intellectually boring. you corrected someone for not being descriptive enough when they referred to the genre/play style by it's name. I'm not saying you're being condescending but you're at the very least goading people into replying why they feel differently about them than you.
 
kvetcha said:
I think I read your post as calling the entire genre mindless, but, looking at it again, I was mistaken.
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Tillman said:
it's not that I thought you were trying to force a perspective, but you did state that you don't understand why people like them. you called the developers lazy. you called the games intellectually boring. you corrected someone for not being descriptive enough when they referred to the genre/play style by it's name. I'm not saying you're being condescending but you're at the very least goading people into replying why they feel differently about them than you.
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Even if I do think the entire genre is mindless that doesn't mean everyone else does or that I'm right. I think they're boring intellectually, someone else might not.

I do think it takes less work to make procedurally generated content than it does to craft individual levels, and I don't think that's so off base.
 
gouis said:
Even if I do think the entire genre is mindless that doesn't mean everyone else does or that I'm right. I think they're boring intellectually, someone else might not.

I do think it takes less work to make procedurally generated content than it does to craft individual levels, and I don't think that's so off base.
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I think that probably undersells the level of effort involved. The actual content is still designed and crafted - it's often just the arrangement that changes.

From a content creation standpoint I'm not sure how it differs meaningfully from something like Civilization.
 
gouis said:
Even if I do think the entire genre is mindless that doesn't mean everyone else does or that I'm right. I think they're boring intellectually, someone else might not.
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correct. but don't drop a hot take and get defensive when people start offering their differing opinions.
gouis said:
I do think it takes less work to make procedurally generated content than it does to craft individual levels, and I don't think that's so off base.
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I would say it's off base to call it lazy, especially with the higher profile Rogue games. the developers still craft all the assets for each of the individual levels that are generated. they still need to code it so that it works regardless of the level generated and that there aren't runs that are flat out broken. it's a pretty wide generalization to act like just because the individual levels were created by the developers that more effort went into the overall game.
 
kvetcha said:
I think that probably undersells the level of effort involved. The actual content is still designed and crafted - it's often just the arrangement that changes.

From a content creation standpoint I'm not sure how it differs meaningfully from something like Civilization.
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I also can't get into Civ lol
 
gouis said:
Even if I do think the entire genre is mindless that doesn't mean everyone else does or that I'm right. I think they're boring intellectually, someone else might not.

I do think it takes less work to make procedurally generated content than it does to craft individual levels, and I don't think that's so off base.
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Some of the best and most popular roguelikes in recent years are 2D sidescrollers like Rogue Legacy and Dead Cells. The developers still make all of the screens/level stages. The only randomly generated parts are the order of the screens (boards, rooms? Can't remember that term). So it seems like a similar amount of development time, it is just a different order every time to increase replayability by making it less predictable. Both of those games also give you different weapons/abilities every run to add to that. The stimulating part is that both are very difficult to make it through a whole run, so you are constantly afraid of what's around the corner and having to adapt to whatever it is and hoping you find a heal or whatever instead of a room full of an extraordinary amount of enemies.
 
dhodo said:
Some of the best and most popular roguelikes in recent years are 2D sidescrollers like Rogue Legacy and Dead Cells. The developers still make all of the screens/level stages. The only randomly generated parts are the order of the screens (boards, rooms? Can't remember that term). So it seems like a similar amount of development time, it is just a different order every time to increase replayability by making it less predictable. Both of those games also give you different weapons/abilities every run to add to that. The stimulating part is that both are very difficult to make it through a whole run, so you are constantly afraid of what's around the corner and having to adapt to whatever it is and hoping you find a heal or whatever instead of a room full of an extraordinary amount of enemies.
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That seems more interesting than the other ones I have played.
 
dhodo said:
Some of the best and most popular roguelikes in recent years are 2D sidescrollers like Rogue Legacy and Dead Cells. The developers still make all of the screens/level stages. The only randomly generated parts are the order of the screens (boards, rooms? Can't remember that term). So it seems like a similar amount of development time, it is just a different order every time to increase replayability by making it less predictable. Both of those games also give you different weapons/abilities every run to add to that. The stimulating part is that both are very difficult to make it through a whole run, so you are constantly afraid of what's around the corner and having to adapt to whatever it is and hoping you find a heal or whatever instead of a room full of an extraordinary amount of enemies.
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there are games that also take this same concept but apply them to a top down shooter/dungeon crawler/bullet hell game style like The Binding Of Isaac or Enter The Gungeon. these games have stories, they have a beginning and an ending, they have multiple levels or stages but each run will present you with different rooms and map setups, different weapons and power ups, different enemy locations, etc...

sure some Rogues are just lazy, crappy shovelware but that goes for any genre and isn't specific to Rogue games.
 
Tillman said:
there are games that also take this same concept but apply them to a top down shooter/dungeon crawler/bullet hell game style like The Binding Of Isaac or Enter The Gungeon. these games have stories, they have a beginning and an ending, they have multiple levels or stages but each run will present you with different rooms and map setups, different weapons and power ups, different enemy locations, etc...

sure some Rogues are just lazy, crappy shovelware but that goes for any genre and isn't specific to Rogue games.
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I know it's not for everyone but Binding Of Isaac: Rebirth is easily one of my favourite games of the last 10 years, maybe my most played game in terms of time ever, i still have fun just picking it up and going for a few runs, I used to be pretty damn good at it too but I kinda suck now without the practice
 
PineapplePhantom said:
I know it's not for everyone but Binding Of Isaac: Rebirth is easily one of my favourite games of the last 10 years, maybe my most played game in terms of time ever, i still have fun just picking it up and going for a few runs, I used to be pretty damn good at it too but I kinda suck now without the practice
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@Fillip J Phry is always updating us on his BoI progress. that dude has put hundreds of hours into it
 
I understand the frustration with roguelikes or roguelites. On the one hand, I really like Binding of Isaac and FTL, however there are games like Dead Cells, where every time you die it feels like you have to go through the chore of retracing your steps through a slightly-different version of the same few starting zones, and it can get really annoying to have to play 45 minutes of game just to get to those 10 minutes that typically kill you.
 
Meanwhile, I've finally finished my playthrough of Death Stranding and I....liked it! Honestly, I liked the core gameplay most; trucking around and gathering/delivering packages was a blast. The game gets in its own way near the end, and it felt like after ~60 hours of playing, the game suddenly threw like four final bosses and three hours of cutscenes at me. I might pick it up for some postgame content, but not for a bit.

Now I'm bouncing between some Binding of Isaac runs and picking up a second playthrough of Bloodborne I started like three years ago. I found myself in the mood for a Souls game, not sure if BB is scratching that itch, but at the same time, I'm like 2/3 through regular DS on Switch and the difficulty is getting aggravating (stupid four kings or whatever), I've played DS3 at least 5 times through, and I don't know if I'll ever give DS2 another fair shake.
 
Tillman said:
@Fillip J Phry is always updating us on his BoI progress. that dude has put hundreds of hours into it
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Appreciate the shoutout, I'm getting really close to 1000 hours!

Here's my current update: Trying to get ANY kind of win with The Keeper, and it's an absolute nightmare. Basically, this character can typically take two hits before death, and health can only be restored by getting a coin. Health containers cannot go beyond two, but can drop to one if you take a devil deal or get a health down of some sort. He also has triple shot, so good damage at close range, but really slow to fire and less good at a distance. This character is similar to The Lost, but without the small advantages The Lost have - i.e. flying, specter tears, and Holy Mantle once you unlock it. I'm currently at a 32 loss streak, I'm curious how high that will go before I get my first win.

PineapplePhantom said:
I know it's not for everyone but Binding Of Isaac: Rebirth is easily one of my favourite games of the last 10 years, maybe my most played game in terms of time ever, i still have fun just picking it up and going for a few runs, I used to be pretty damn good at it too but I kinda suck now without the practice
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I'm right there with you, one of my all time favorites, and I still do runs several days a week or more. Looking forward to the new expansion whenever it comes out.

BoI is my most played single game by far, and I'd say it rivals my combined times in each series of Call of Duty, Halo, and Fallout. I typically put several hundred hours in each iteration in the series, although I haven't really played CoD since Advanced Warfare. I did put a gazillion hours into 4-AW throughout high school and college. Same goes for Halo, hundreds of hours in 2, 3, Reach, and 5. Didn't play 4 as much.
 
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