Hot Take/ Musical Confession Thread!

You got me with Prince switching to a symbol (though that was a much-malgined move) and the Beatles becoming Sgt. Peppers' LHCB, but wouldn't Madonna and Dylan fall more under the category of a constantly shifting image?
It all depends on how literal you take it I suppose; Dylan playing a train hopping hobo was certainly a different character than his Nashville Troubadour or his rolling thunder revue circus shaman or the born again Christian.

Madonna reinvented what “Madonna” was with each subsequent album. 80s party girl Madonna, the Vogue/Club Culture Madonna, the S&M/Sex era Madonna, Kabbala Madonna, etc…
 
That's the one that I think is the gold standard for when the artifice doesn't work.




Depends on the artist. The performative aspect of a character as it relates to an album cycle is, I think, more of a commercial decision than anything. It signals that the artist is doing something, that an experiment is happening, that they deserve your attention. It rationalizes developing new merch and provides a central thesis around which you can develop promotional materials, album art, interviews, live show visuals etc.

There are musicians whose whole thing is that they are authentically themselves. Nick Cave is the example at the top of mind because one of his most recent Red Hand Files was explicitly about chasing authenticity. Cave isn't a "rock star" in the sense that he's headlining arenas, but I think you'd be hard pressed to think of many artists who have been around as long, lived as hard, been as prolific & acclaimed, etc. Putting on a character might -- MIGHT -- make him more 'relevant,' but what he's done instead has preserved his integrity & reputation as a capital-A Artist.

But as you guys have touched on, there's multiple flavors of this. There's the album-based character cycle, where it's like an interchangeable outfit that you can put on and take off. There's the artist that is inseparable from a very specific character (DOOM is a great example, but also KISS, GWAR, Weird Al, etc.). There's the artist whose private persona and stage persona are publicly acknowledged to be very different (see "Sasha Fierce"). And then there are artists who demonstrate an honest and sincere evolution of their artistry over time. For this final category I'm thinking more of the Nick Cave types, but it's not exactly uncommon. Ideally you want all artists to evolve over time and add layers and dimension to their work, to be in conversation with their lives and the world around them. But you also want to be more substantial in nature than the cliche of a band whose second album budget is a blank check to write the biggest possible anthems so that their sound fills bigger and bigger venues.

To summarize, I agree that "X album's character is Y" is a crass, mostly commercial, choice, and it's different from maintaining an artistic/stage persona that is not the same as who the artist is privately. You want artists to demonstrate growth, but in a world where everyone is vying for attention and nuance is hard to come by, it's easy to understand why the album cycle shtick is a popular formula.
So Nick Cave is a murderer? I’m just saying there is a lot of artiface there too.
 
Prince definitely did it with Camille and all the various characters he did. Jamie Starr and TAFKAP were more about being able to do what he wanted than doing anything as a different person/character.
100! I'm also unapologetically biased.

TAFKAP was not a persona like a Ziggy Stardust, etc. Sure, it was presented to the public but as an act of protest more than a commercial pivot.

Jamie Starr was not presented to the public at all. Die hard fans knew the name, but it was more of a way to create and work in anonymity.

Even Camille was not some big arc for him or presentation. It was a tool he used in his arsenal to present a different face (voice) of his sound.

Again, totally biased here. But also totally correct.
 
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Cave's stage persona is definitely a character. The intensity of his performance is markedly different from who he is off stage,
This makes me think of Nietzsche's The Birth of Tragedy. This phenomena of intense artistic performance in juxtaposition to the "off stage" persona would be suitable to look at through the lens of Dionysian frenzy, transcendence, and the ultimate tearing apart of one's self in artistic revelry.
 
I don't think this one is a particularly good example, since it was a genuine statement about the politics of the music industry and how others profit off of/own the products of musicians' labor. The fact that it was coopted and turned into a joke by so many people diluted the impact of the message and led people to the incorrect conclusion that it was an act of ego-driven celebrity mania.
That was his own fault though. He was in charge of the whole operation at that point and very much wanted it viewed as if he was a different artist. The Jam of the Year tour was going to retire all the old Prince Songs. The Vault and Come albums were presented as the death of Prince and obligations to WB. Those were very self inflicted wounds.
 
This makes me think of Nietzsche's The Birth of Tragedy. This phenomena of intense artistic performance in juxtaposition to the "off stage" persona would be suitable to look at through the lens of Dionysian frenzy, transcendence, and the ultimate tearing apart of one's self in artistic revelry.
Would love to hear @TenderLovingKiller® and @Indymisanthrope ’s thoughts on FJM in this light. His stage persona makes him unbearable to me.
 
If you've ever stood a few feet away from Nick Cave while he's on stage, I think you'd already be convinced of this idea. He's *extremely* effective at wielding his stage presence to generate a...I don't know, an "emotional field" that envelops the audience.
Yes, I've no disagreement regarding your assertion. Rather, it sparked musings of my own regarding Nietzsche's own thoughts on the creation of art. It could easily be applied to many musical artists.
 
I'm loving this discussion, and as is typical any time I lob a hot take bomb into a room I find myself immediately amending, hemming and hawing, and otherwise realizing all the grey areas on the margins of surety.

I think there's always some inherent artifice in being a performer. Even a musician who is going onstage by their legal name, singing songs directly taken from experience and asserted as truth; that person is still presenting themselves through some manner of filter and making choices in the image they wish to convey. And a shifting image is part of being a performer and evolving your art, be that minor equipment/recording changes or straight-up image overhauls. There's a push-pull, a sort of Alan-Alda-inCrime-And-Punishment "bend vs. break" scale which varies from artist to artist, from reinvention to reinvention. Madonna or Dylan can go through drastic image changes which feel like a natural extension of the unknowability at their core, but it took Weird Al (construct as he may be) twenty years to shave the stache and put in contacts.

It's a form of "ick," and for me the ick creeps in when the presentation of a character/persona takes precedence over the musical product itself.
 
And those are all treated as separate projects; whether you declare King Geedorah is "DOOM as King Geedorah" or "Daniel Dumille as King Geedorah," we can all agree Take Me to Your Leader is a King Geedorah project.

Gotcha! I see I meandered off the trail a little bit here. The perils of juggling an infant and a discussion thread. My bad.

An immediate thought for me, then, would he Saul Williams with Niggy Tardust and Neptune Frost (for MartyrLoserKing, Encrypted & Vulnerable, both of which led to his directing a Neptune Frost movie that others portraying the Neptune)
 
I'm loving this discussion, and as is typical any time I lob a hot take bomb into a room I find myself immediately amending, hemming and hawing, and otherwise realizing all the grey areas on the margins of surety.

I think there's always some inherent artifice in being a performer. Even a musician who is going onstage by their legal name, singing songs directly taken from experience and asserted as truth; that person is still presenting themselves through some manner of filter and making choices in the image they wish to convey. And a shifting image is part of being a performer and evolving your art, be that minor equipment/recording changes or straight-up image overhauls. There's a push-pull, a sort of Alan-Alda-inCrime-And-Punishment "bend vs. break" scale which varies from artist to artist, from reinvention to reinvention. Madonna or Dylan can go through drastic image changes which feel like a natural extension of the unknowability at their core, but it took Weird Al (construct as he may be) twenty years to shave the stache and put in contacts.

It's a form of "ick," and for me the ick creeps in when the presentation of a character/persona takes precedence over the musical product itself.
The best way to do the hot take thread is to lob a nuclear bomb and then put the thread on ignore for a few weeks.

Something along the lines of Beyoncé’s Country Album is clearly a cash grab meant to dupe the dumb country music fans into buying her album.

Hypothetically, you do this and then ghost the thread for a month.
 
Would love to hear @TenderLovingKiller® and @Indymisanthrope ’s thoughts on FJM in this light. His stage persona makes him unbearable to me.
Sorry to butt in where uninvited but FJM is in back of mind when I think of this topic. I think he remains relatively unchanged as a persona (haircut for the most recent album nonwithstanding), and the reinventions are more apparent in the music (apocalypse album, divorce album, jazzy crooner album).
Also are there any artists putting on a persona to be more commercially successful? Like is that a thing? Sia is the only example where I think I could make an argument for that.
That's the pop world in a nutshell (non-derogatory), isn't it? Rap, too. You're deliberately putting on an image in order to sell a mystique or represent something larger for people to buy into when they choose to stan.
 
Would love to hear @TenderLovingKiller® and @Indymisanthrope ’s thoughts on FJM in this light. His stage persona makes him unbearable to me.
I tried to avoid bringing him up but it was really FJM that had me initially think about the idea of rock star personas. When I first heard of what he was doing it turned me off, but after hearing the music and reflecting on the nature of rock stars as performance artist, I realized what he was doing was no different than Dylan, Bowie, Many rappers, Kiss, Etc... Its all part of the performance FJM just overtly acknowledged that it was all a facade up front instead of being coy about it.
 
He's so unbearable to me that I refuse to learn enough about him to be able to articulate an informed opinion.

Yes & no; he was also a weird little guy that lived in Minnesota and wore purple and was effete and hypersexual, and when you're that person already, changing your name to an unpronounceable symbol is a risky move that, once initiated, you may not be able to control. I mean...think about the McDonald's hot coffee lawsuit. That was a case of serious injury, and reasonable conditions for a settlement. But the narrative was stolen for the sake of punchlines.

If Prince had done that in the internet age, people would have had better access to his reasons, and would have had a more sophisticated view of what he was trying to achieve. For people like me who were kids at the time, my only exposure to it was the jokes on the school bus and what I heard secondhand that Jay Leno or whoever had done to mock it on TV the night before.
I hear you, but again, in interviews at the time he was talking about the problem with WB and his masters and also saying that Prince was dead and I’m gonna retire these songs. It was both a broad and powerful statement about the music industry and a “persona” as publicity stunt. The zeitgeist latched onto the second because it was ridiculous.
 
Consciously? Yes, I think there are almost certainly some that do. But I think it's also likely the case that industry norms assert themselves in a manner that this is "how things are done," you know?
What's the color scheme for this album? Okay, so how does that translate to the album art? Okay, so how are you going to communicate that on stage? Will any of the music video costumes be carried over to the concerts? What will the background dancers be wearing? What will be on the screen behind you? What are the talking points you'll be taking into interviews about the album and its significance and why people should listen to it? What will your appearance be in the photoshoots that will make people pay attention and understand this is you in the present as opposed to the hundred photoshoots you've done in the last decade? And so on. Is that the artist dreaming up a character specifically because characters = money? Not at all. But it's still all in service of selling something.
But that’s all very different from becoming Ziggy Stardust to the public for that entire album cycle. Or how something like the Thin White Duke becomes so pervasive that people genuinely don’t know when that period even is.

Sia has been wearing that dumb wig and acting like her identity is a secret for a long fucking time.
 
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