Phono pre-amplifier (phonostage) upgrades

[Angsty]

Anyone have pros vs cons of preamp with the phono stage integrated?
Seems like the way to go to save some coin and shelf space.
Just wasn't sure if I am missing some other aspect of this option.

I targeted my last integrated purchase with a top flight MM stage in mind. I got a Bryston B100 SST and I later got a matching SUT to allow it to handle MC cartridges.

Overall, I do think going with a separate phono is superior. I now I use an external phono with my integrated that avoids ground loop hum better than my SUT and internal phono combination.

 

[Hemotep]

Are there any benefits to increasing the gain on a preamp when using a MM cart? I know it boosts the signal/volume significantly because of how it scales, but what's the thought on setting higher or lower gain on the preamp?

 

[Joe Mac]

Are there any benefits to increasing the gain on a preamp when using a MM cart? I know it boosts the signal/volume significantly because of how it scales, but what's the thought on setting higher or lower gain on the preamp?

I’ve always found that it sounds better to chose the lower end of the acceptable gain for a cart on a phono and crank my preamp a bit more instead. Not that it sounds bad to do it with the phono, I just prefer that extra bit of gain coming from the preamp.

 

[Hemotep]

I’ve always found that it sounds better to chose the lower end of the acceptable gain for a cart on a phono and crank my preamp a bit more instead. Not that it sounds bad to do it with the phono, I just prefer that extra bit of gain coming from the preamp.

I almost tagged you on this because I figured you'd know the answer, so, thank you! I'm still playing around with the settings to see what I like best, but after reading a few sites about this I wasn't sure I fully understood through the technical explanations. But if sounds like I do get the principle right and can adjust to see where it sounds best on my system to me without any big concerns.

 

[Joe Mac]

I almost tagged you on this because I figured you'd know the answer, so, thank you! I'm still playing around with the settings to see what I like best, but after reading a few sites about this I wasn't sure I fully understood through the technical explanations. But if sounds like I do get the principle right and can adjust to see where it sounds best on my system to me without any big concerns.

Equally that’s just my findings with my amp, as with all things have a bit of a fiddle and settle with whichever sounds best to you on your system.

 

[Angsty]

Better in general to use a lower gain on most phonos as higher gain tends to reduce headroom available for dynamic peaks. But, gain has to be high enough for a usable volume setting range with the preamp.

 

[Jbraswell]

I targeted my last integrated purchase with a top flight MM stage in mind. I got a Bryston B100 SST and I later got a matching SUT to allow it to handle MC cartridges.

Overall, I do think going with a separate phono is superior. I now I use an external phono with my integrated that avoids ground loop hum better than my SUT and internal phono combination.

Everything is case by case as usual with this stuff.

In thinking about it more, I like the shared bigger caps and power supply with a tube preamp with phono. I'll still have the option later to add a secondary separate phono. Have an eye on a used preamp unit for $800 that will hold me over until that upgrade day arrives.

I really wanted to hear how the $3k phono sounded but it's going back as a dead unit and I'll just keep wondering

 

[displayname]

Are there any benefits to increasing the gain on a preamp when using a MM cart? I know it boosts the signal/volume significantly because of how it scales, but what's the thought on setting higher or lower gain on the preamp?

I don't know the math, but I know the principles.

All in all, you're taking a signal and amplifying it. Simple enough concept. But in the chain, every input stage has a preferred input voltage. Going above that will create clipping. Going below requires you to push the single too much in the next stage, causing clipping.

So the goal of the preamp is really to amplify the single from the cartridge to line level. The risk with a MM and more gain, is that you are going above line level. Meaning you will be compressing and clipping the signal before it even starts to get amplified from your amp. The result will be lack of clarity.

So the trick here is either very hard, or very simple.
The very hard way is to measure the voltages on everything, or at least look up specs. And do the math of what is being produced at each stage, and try to match it up right in the sweet spot of the speaks.
The much easier way - just try it. It's all about what sounds best to your ear anyway.

 

[Hemotep]

I don't know the math, but I know the principles.

All in all, you're taking a signal and amplifying it. Simple enough concept. But in the chain, every input stage has a preferred input voltage. Going above that will create clipping. Going below requires you to push the single too much in the next stage, causing clipping.

So the goal of the preamp is really to amplify the single from the cartridge to line level. The risk with a MM and more gain, is that you are going above line level. Meaning you will be compressing and clipping the signal before it even starts to get amplified from your amp. The result will be lack of clarity.

So the trick here is either very hard, or very simple.
The very hard way is to measure the voltages on everything, or at least look up specs. And do the math of what is being produced at each stage, and try to match it up right in the sweet spot of the speaks.
The much easier way - just try it. It's all about what sounds best to your ear anyway.

Thank you, this makes the most sense of what I've read on the topic in terms of what it's doing. Appreciate the education!

 

[HiFi Guy]

My experience is that any integrated phono stage is a compromise. I tried the built in that the NAD C165 preamp offered. The MM section wasn’t bad, but the MC section was awful. I tried the built in from the Rogue Pharoah and it was average at best.

I’ve owned the following phono stages:

Vincent PHO-8- $300 and it bested both built ins easily.

iFi Audio IPhono2- sounded fantastic when it worked. Put me off the brand forever.

Sutherland Vibe V1-cost nearly double the iPhono2 and didn’t sound as good. Returned for…

Sutherland Insight. Now we are cooking. Kept it for a couple of years. Sold for:

Sutherland Duo. End game 4 years later.

If I come across the right deal on a used Manley Steelhead RC, that’s the only thing I’d trade the Duo for.

 

[Mather]

Everything is case by case as usual with this stuff.

In thinking about it more, I like the shared bigger caps and power supply with a tube preamp with phono. I'll still have the option later to add a secondary separate phono. Have an eye on a used preamp unit for $800 that will hold me over until that upgrade day arrives.

I really wanted to hear how the $3k phono sounded but it's going back as a dead unit and I'll just keep wondering

Wait... i thought the earlier stage was dead, this new one is too?

 

[HiFi Guy]

Are there any benefits to increasing the gain on a preamp when using a MM cart? I know it boosts the signal/volume significantly because of how it scales, but what's the thought on setting higher or lower gain on the preamp?

The math is pretty easy, especially when using a built in phono stage.

Look at your specs. You’ll see a phono input sensitivity spec- it’ll say something like 3mV for MM and .5 MV for MC. That means your cartridge must output at least that voltage for your amplifier to meet rated output when playing records.

You could use a 2.5 mV cartridge- like a high output MC, but your amp would only be able to put out 60% of its rated power.

 

[Hemotep]

The math is pretty easy, especially when using a built in phono stage.

Look at your specs. You’ll see a phono input sensitivity spec- it’ll say something like 3mV for MM and .5 MV for MC. That means your cartridge must output at least that voltage for your amplifier to meet rated output when playing records.

You could use a 2.5 mV cartridge- like a high output MC, but your amp would only be able to put out 60% of its rated power.

I bought a Schiit Skoll, so I'm experimenting.

 

[HiFi Guy]

I bought a Schiit Skoll, so I'm experimenting.

Specs are there:

40 dB Sensitivity: 2.85mV for 300mV output at 1kHz
50 dB Sensitivity: 0.78mV for 300mV output at 1kHz
60dB Sensitivity: 0.34mV for 300mV output at 1kHz
70dB Sensitivity: 0.09mV for 300mV output at 1kHz

Pretty much as long as your amp has a 300 mV input sensitivity you can reach full output at these cartridge output voltages.

For example with a 1mV cartridge you want 50 dB gain.

 

[Jbraswell]

Wait... i thought the earlier stage was dead, this new one is too?

Sorry it's a freaking shit storm over here. And confusing to anyone trying to follow this mess.


I haven't got a new one yet after the dead Rogue from Friday, but the new one will likely be inside a tube preamp to keep the phono and preamp integrated in one box. Buying a used preamp/phono this time.

Clear as mud?

And still testing the Project phono stage (upper left) but it likely gets sent back too.

The best news!
Up and running tonight Project phono and the new Rogue power amp. Just had a brain fart and remembered I could preamp with the AVR out until a proper preamp is acquired

FYI- This Denon is off.

 

[Mather]

Sorry it's a freaking shit storm over here. And confusing to anyone trying to follow this mess.


I haven't got a new one yet after the dead Rogue from Friday, but the new one will likely be inside a tube preamp to keep the phono and preamp integrated in one box. Buying a used preamp/phono this time.

Clear as mud?

And still testing the Project but it likely gets sent back too.

The best news!
Up and running tonight Project phono and the new Rogue power amp. Just had a brain fart and remembered I could preamp with the AVR out until a proper preamp is acquired

FYI- This Denon is off.


View attachment 194642

Ohhhh the new Rogue is a PRE amp, that was my confusion. Thought it was another stage. Gotcha

 

[Jbraswell]

Ohhhh the new Rogue is a PRE amp, that was my confusion. Thought it was another stage. Gotcha

The new to me big Rogue on the right is a power amp.

There's a dead Rogue (phono only) going back.

 

[Hemotep]

Specs are there:

40 dB Sensitivity: 2.85mV for 300mV output at 1kHz
50 dB Sensitivity: 0.78mV for 300mV output at 1kHz
60dB Sensitivity: 0.34mV for 300mV output at 1kHz
70dB Sensitivity: 0.09mV for 300mV output at 1kHz

Pretty much as long as your amp has a 300 mV input sensitivity you can reach full output at these cartridge output voltages.

For example with a 1mV cartridge you want 50 dB gain.

Got it. Off to do some math.

 

[mindhead1]

I bought a Schiit Skoll, so I'm experimenting.

Would love to hear your thoughts on the Skoll. What other phono stages have you used?

 

[Angsty]

I bought a Schiit Skoll, so I'm experimenting.

I’ve heard mixed reviews on the Skoll. The biggest criticism I’ve heard is that the LF filter is set too high at 120 Hz knee on the cutoff frequency. What has been your experience so far?