Did we have progress yesterday where he admitted for the first time that Joe Biden won bud offered no concession?
One step forward, two steps backwards.
Political Discussion
- Thread starter David A.
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Did we have progress yesterday where he admitted for the first time that Joe Biden won bud offered no concession?
One step forward, two steps backwards.
wokeupnew
Well-Known Member
low key the cause of pretty much everything bad that's happened since 2010
YYYUUUUUUUPPPPPPP
Tys1
Well-Known Member
Citizens United lacks common sense. I mean of course you’re going to have more money put into campaigns designed to protect those with the money, that’s called self preservation. And to argue that as free speech is such an insane reach. Citizens United is the reason that we essentially have two right wing parties and why progressives politics cannot work by playing nice.
wokeupnew
Well-Known Member
This is getting talked about a lot today. I think it must be getting serious consideration after the light news I had saw about it two weeks ago.
Again, this would be absolutely huge. I would be one of those people who want to buy a house but am balancing 25k in Student Loan debt.
Again, this would be absolutely huge. I would be one of those people who want to buy a house but am balancing 25k in Student Loan debt.
Bull Shannon
Well-Known Member
I'm not feeling wholly optimistic about this, even if it does happen. When Navient started hounding me for payments at the beginning of pandemic, I reached out to see about the deferment everyone was supposed to see; the person I spoke with very curtly let me know that was only for federal loans (it sounded like they got that question a lot).
So I'm kinda predicting the same conversation; Biden overturns student debt, but Navient is still at my heels because he only overturned federal loans. I hope I'm wrong; it would be really nice to not have to continue being financially crippled by a degree I've never actually been hired for.
Same.
The plan he had on his campaign website has morphed into a bunch of half measures. Right now, it looks like his plan will forgive up to $50K of federal student loans as long as you perform "eligible service" for up to 5 years (each year you get $10K forgiven) and he is relaxing bankruptcy laws so that it's easier to discharge student debt through bankruptcy. When I check to see the eligibility on the bankruptcy proposal, you have to meet several requirements, mainly show that the student loan keeps you from paying other necessary bills. So it's up to the poor, broke person to prove undue hardship. This all feels like half measures to me. His proposal for people currently attending college and those attending in the future look really nice, but I wonder how much of it would actually get passed.
Biden Student Loan Forgiveness: Georgia Judge Blocks ‘Plan B’ Relief For Millions - NerdWallet
President Joe Biden has forgiven $168.5 billion in student loans for 4.76 million borrowers. The White House is also trying to pass a student loan forgiveness 'Plan B' — but you shouldn’t count on it yet.
Tys1
Well-Known Member
I’m conflicted about student loan forgiveness and feel guilty for it but seriously.... there’s a ton of people out there who went to work for a skilled labor position instead of school because they thought they couldn’t afford school. There’s people like me, who joined the military because they couldn’t afford school and not out of a call for duty and service. I knew student loans would obligate me into debt I was uncertain I would be able to realistically pay off and so looked for other options. Meanwhile those without the foresight to look at the potential consequences, those that don’t read the fine print and think of how it might affect them get their loans forgiven? I don’t agree with it. You entered a contract, you agreed to the terms.
Bull Shannon
Well-Known Member
I was 16 when I agreed to the "contract;" was pressured by family, teachers, basically everyone, that contract was the path to a career and would guarantee the ability to pay off my debt; and my parents agreed to the terms and dumped the loans on me when I graduated. I'm sorry for your situation, unfortunately your struggle isn't unique in this country, and I'd say it only goes towards the argument that our current way of doing things is incredibly backwards and exploitative. But "hey I didn't get exploited" doesn't seem like a sound argument against debt reversal.
wokeupnew
Well-Known Member
I'd say even if it was just federal loans I think it's a step in the right direction.
I don't agree with this. We as a country have kids who are 16/17/18 years old decide to go to college because that's what they are conditioned to do. "they should have known that they'd need to pay off ridiculous debts with compounding interest that they'll be paying off until they're 40!" When I was 16 I wasn't thinking about paying this off. I was thinking I'll get a good job, make bank and worry about it in 10 years after graduating. That didn't happen and doesn't happen for the majority of people and now here we are.
If it sucks for a group of people, fix the issue. "I didn't go to college because I knew it was so expensive!" Fix it, and then more people will go to college and you can still go to college at a later age. "I already paid off my debts so it's not fair that other people will not have to pay off debts!" You can keep going and say "My family member died from Cancer but I don't think we should find a cure for Cancer because my family member is already dead."
I'm not calling you out, but it's an opinion that always crops up when these types of progressive debt forgiveness discussions happen. You're not alone in thinking this way. We're conditioned to think this because this country is so individualistic and no one looks out for each other. "Why should I have to suffer when future generations don't have to?"
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Melt Face Molly Drop
Well-Known Member
There's also the argument that people who have already paid off their debts won't be able to take advantage of this and how they think it isn't fair. Having been in the situation where I've paid off my loans, I don't think it is a discussion of what's fair or not, but rather what is right for the country moving forward.
If these generations continue to be shackled by student loans, the economy will suffer if these kids are forced to penny-pinch for the rest of their lives. The 1% then grows richer, and no one really wins. So, I'm for this, but it needs to be a more nuanced plan than "POOF! Debt begone", obviously.
If these generations continue to be shackled by student loans, the economy will suffer if these kids are forced to penny-pinch for the rest of their lives. The 1% then grows richer, and no one really wins. So, I'm for this, but it needs to be a more nuanced plan than "POOF! Debt begone", obviously.
Tys1
Well-Known Member
I agree with you, the system is fucked. I understand the “I didn’t get exploited” argument doesn’t work. I also feel the “hey I was young and naive” argument doesn’t work. I graduated in 2001, I remember the grand push for college enrollment and student loans. My wife is currently paying one off now so debt forgiveness would be a net positive for our family but I do not believe that it is the correct move. Perhaps reversing the portion in which you paid interest and changing terms to 0% for life going forward would be a compromise. But just giving tons of people that lacked foresight a free ride to a college education while skilled laborers are kept in poverty? That to me, seems counter productive.
wokeupnew
Well-Known Member
This is the domino of many that needs to fall in order to enact more progressive policies. That would include wage increases for all workers, strong unions, universal health care, etc. Also I'd argue that A LOT of skilled laborers and low-wage, service and retail employees are those who are underemployed because there are few jobs in their field that they graduated in. I have several friends from high school who went to college for one thing but are now skilled factory workers because they could not get a job in their major. So it's easy to think that this will benefit exclusively white collar office workers, which is only half true. You might feel that you'll get hard done by this. And you may be right. But this will benefit the whole of society. We have to think past "how will this help me?" and instead think "how does this help us?"
I get this. I was able to snag an academic scholarship for my undergrad but I had to take out loans for my grad school. I decided to go to the public university instead of the private which cut my cost in half. But, I consider myself one of the last people able to take advantage of things like full tuition scholarships for academics and cheap state school tuition because all of my school was completed before 2008. The current environment is down right predatory where people are paying more in interest than they ever did for school.
Honestly, helping people pay off student loans is a direct help to the middle class, not blue collar workers, so you are absolutely right. It isn't that fair to people who went to technical colleges to learn a trade or to the military. Student loan debt forgiveness would not have been my first choice of policies to start enacting, but it seems like the choice that will get the least push back by Republicans. Student loan debt should be just one piece in a transformation of our economy.
Tys1
Well-Known Member
Agreed. It’s another situation where foresight comes into play but that one is a tale as old as time. Too many people really like philosophy and want a degree in it but also really like money. I’m all for benefiting the whole of society but also hold dearly the idea that hard work and smart decisions will yield greater monetary reward (if that is your individual ideal). Regardless everyone should have their basic needs met with or without an education, that’s not happening and that’s where the focus should be.
wokeupnew
Well-Known Member
100% agreed. I think when these policies come into play then we start thinking about M4A, UBI and other things. Having basic needs met, healthcare, food/shelter (UBI) will help fix those things. The system is rigged to either go in one direction, skilled worker/retail/service worker who doesn't make a lot. Or go to college to potentially make more money (key word "potentially"), and be saddled with enormous debt. Smash the system and make it better.
Tys1
Well-Known Member
Ideally yes, unfortunately... capitalism
Joe Mac
Well-Known Member
I also think that there’s a myopia to saying that making third level education cheaper isn’t good for me so don’t do it. Or that it doesn’t benefit the working classes. Third Level Education when freely available and affordable has the potential to be the single greatest force for social mobility.
Also late stage neo capitalism isn’t capitalism. We don’t need to keep down this path. Study for studies sake increases intellectual capacity and is good for the economy. Considerate people capable of detailed analysis have multiple transferable skills. We don’t need to believe the myth that only degrees that train you directly for a career are worthwhile.
Also late stage neo capitalism isn’t capitalism. We don’t need to keep down this path. Study for studies sake increases intellectual capacity and is good for the economy. Considerate people capable of detailed analysis have multiple transferable skills. We don’t need to believe the myth that only degrees that train you directly for a career are worthwhile.
Tys1
Well-Known Member
Agreed. As mentioned, debt forgiveness would be a net positive for my family on a selfish level. It IS good for me, directly. I disagree with it on principle and also feel that going forward we should make third level education accessible to all. The part I disagree with is forgiving debt incurred already.
As for liberal arts and their relation to well paying jobs, it really doesn’t need to be debated. The data is out there and easily accessible. As for their relevance to a society, abso-fuckin-lutely! Far more important to society than the marketing majors in my opinion, and it’s not even close! I never said it wasn’t important. It all comes down to what ones holds virtuous and deems important to them. Empathy, emotional intelligence, compassion, etc all pay far more dividends for society than the monetary credit they are awarded. That doesn’t change the fact that in today’s society the blacksmith gets paid more money than the philospher. This one really isn’t a contentious topic at all, it’s pretty well established.
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Joe Mac
Well-Known Member
Morally I find that pretty bankrupt. The people who went before got cheaper education, the people who come after we strive to give free across to. The people who came in the middle. Sorry lads, bad timing, you’re financially crippled for life, laters.