Political Discussion

Joe Mac said:
Morally I find that pretty bankrupt. The people who went before got cheaper education, the people who come after we strive to give free across to. The people who came in the middle. Sorry lads, bad timing, you’re financially crippled for life, laters.
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Morally I feel one ought to be prepared to accept the consequences for their decisions. The onus is on the moral agent not the moral construct. This is not to say I feel we shouldn’t recognize fault and work towards improving access nor does it imply that we deny individuals basic needs. We probably disagree on an ethical stance here.
 
Tys1 said:
Morally I feel one ought to be prepared to accept the consequences for their decisions. The onus is on the moral agent not the moral construct. This is not to say I feel we shouldn’t recognize fault and work towards improving access nor does it imply that we deny individuals basic needs. We probably disagree on an ethical stance here.
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Hard disagrees. There’s a social and societal imperative to have as highly an educated population as possible. There is also an ever increasing pressure on young people in the post-industrial age to get as educated as possible or fail. There are ever decreasing alternatives. Penalising people for making that choice is counterproductive and amoral to me.
 
One of the things I saw in the last year or two on a special report on NBC was about how a college education is not worth it for most since the recession. A bachelor's degree is the absolute worst degree to get when it comes to debt to income ratio and whether or not your degree was worth it's price.

As a society we say that a college degree means success. You need one to get a good job that pays well. It's so ingrained in our society many of us don't even blink an eye at it or question the idea of is a college degree the right path for me.

Over the last 40 years we made it so affordable to go to college. Everyone can apply for loans and get one. But then capitalism, the beast that it is, saw to it that the cost of education skyrocket well above the rates of inflation because loans were guaranteed.

We saw a generation or two go through where record numbers of people were going to college. And it is an expectation of society and and families that future generations do as well.

The problem is our economy is not generating enough jobs that require a college degree. As corporations offshore and automate things the vast majority of the new jobs our economy is generating are low wage jobs in the service industry that do not require any sort of degree.

More people are graduating with degree than there are jobs hiring people with degrees / at that pay level. Worse, networking is far more influential at landing you that good job than your degree and achievements. Someone coming from wealth or Ivy League schools who have the right social circles are far more likely to land that job than a lower middle class graduate with a 4.0 GPA who went to a regular college.

When it comes to a bachelor's degree, you are either overqualified or underqualified for most jobs generated by our economy.

The majority of jobs being generated are looking for just a High School Diploma or Associates Degree. Those jobs that are looking for higher degrees are often looking for a Masters Degree or higher. Much higher when it comes to specialties like phycology or doctors. You need a PhD and fellowship.

Currently as a country we have more college graduates entering the workforce with a bachelor's degree than there are jobs hiring people with those degrees. So we can classify a group of college graduates with a bachelor's degree as under employed.

I remember they ran a story about someone from San Francisco 2 summers ago who works at Starbucks as there are simply no jobs available for people with his degree. When jobs pop up there are 100+ people applying for them. And someone like him, who has been out of college since the recession who hasn't had any jost experience is thrown to the bottom of the pile of job applicants. It's the what have you been doing since graduating college? Working at Starbucks, oh...

He's unable to afford to pay back his student loans and fell behind on his payments. His debt can't be discharged in bankruptcy court as student loans are exempt. And then the federal government administratively started garnishing his wages. He ended up then not being able to make rent and living in a tent homeless.

On top of that, with wages stagnant the return of the ever increase cost of a degree is shrinking if not flipped for many fields.

People who get degrees flock to the cities where the high paying jobs are. Many rural communities are unable to get a doctor or have a heart surgeon at their hospital. As their existing doctors age and retire out of the system they are finding a job shortage in rural America. Most new doctors are not taking the jobs in this areas because the pay is too low. They can't afford to pay back their loans by taking these jobs. So they take jobs in the cities. The rural communities can't afford to pay the rates that the new generation of doctors are looking for and must make so that they are living above their means. They are banking on attracting doctors who are in it for the love of the practice and not the money. But those doctors are few and far between these days and asking them to go into debt / financial ruin by not paying enough for them to make payments on their loans is not sustainable. But I don't expect anything to change until the problem starts creeping in to suburbia.
 
Joe Mac said:
I also think that there’s a myopia to saying that making third level education cheaper isn’t good for me so don’t do it. Or that it doesn’t benefit the working classes. Third Level Education when freely available and affordable has the potential to be the single greatest force for social mobility.
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This. I think we as a species, definitely the USA as well, have historically been focused on things that only benefit ourselves. I know there has always been a small contingent that has sought solutions for the good of the country/society/humanity and I'd love to see that become more of the norm in modern-day thought and discussion.

It is always a convo stopper as well when discussing policy with friends/colleagues.
"So you're saying that you want X to happen because its good for you even though it would be bad for the majority of people?"
"Well yeah"
"That seems fairly selfish. Don't you want things that help everyone?"
"......."
 
Tyr said:
This. I think we as a species, definitely the USA as well, have historically been focused on things that only benefit ourselves. I know there has always been a small contingent that has sought solutions for the good of the country/society/humanity and I'd love to see that become more of the norm in modern-day thought and discussion.

It is always a convo stopper as well when discussing policy with friends/colleagues.
"So you're saying that you want X to happen because its good for you even though it would be bad for the majority of people?"
"Well yeah"
"That seems fairly selfish. Don't you want things that help everyone?"
"......."
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Here’s an even harder one if we’re being theoretical

“I’m a good person that works hard and earns every penny that I get but my job/employer is overal bad for humanity/the planet. What’s the right action?”

These are interesting and important conversations but I am also more than cognisant that we are in a very lucky place to be able to have them and not spend our entire existence scraping together enough to just about pay rent and/or put food on the table.
 
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Tyr said:
This. I think we as a species, definitely the USA as well, have historically been focused on things that only benefit ourselves. I know there has always been a small contingent that has sought solutions for the good of the country/society/humanity and I'd love to see that become more of the norm in modern-day thought and discussion.

It is always a convo stopper as well when discussing policy with friends/colleagues.
"So you're saying that you want X to happen because its good for you even though it would be bad for the majority of people?"
"Well yeah"
"That seems fairly selfish. Don't you want things that help everyone?"
"......."
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I would say that teaching the importance of individual accountability DOES benefit the exact country/society/humanity that you are referring to. It’s that whole “teach a man man to fish” thing. I believe there exists a world where accountability and access do not need to be at odds with each other.

I will teach my kid to look both ways before crossing the road AND yell at the bastard that almost hits him when he’s driving while texting, and I’ll do it while also advocating for texting while driving be illegal. I’m not going to place the entirety of the blame on the driver, my kid knows the rules of crossing the street.

There exists a responsibility between both the individual and the society. To ignore individual responsibility is disadvantageous to a society.
 
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Tys1 said:
I would say that teaching the importance of individual accountability DOES benefit the exact country/society/humanity that you are referring to. It’s that whole “teach a man man to fish” thing. I believe there exists a world where accountability and access do not need to be at odds with each other.

I will teach my kid to look both ways before crossing the road AND yell at the bastard that almost hits him when he’s driving while texting, and I’ll do it while also advocating for texting while driving be illegal. I’m not going to place the entirety of the blame on the driver, my kids knows the rules of crossing the street.

There exists a responsibility between both the individual and the society. To ignore individual responsibility is disadvantageous to a society.
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I may have misstated my position as that was not the intent of my original post.

I agree with you, personal responsibility and accountability are integral parts of being a good and productive human IMO. What I was stating is that people that vote for/support people, positions, or policies solely for their own personal gain have been historically the norm. I'd like to see a departure from that.
 
Tys1 said:
I would say that teaching the importance of individual accountability DOES benefit the exact country/society/humanity that you are referring to. It’s that whole “teach a man man to fish” thing. I believe there exists a world where accountability and access do not need to be at odds with each other.

I will teach my kid to look both ways before crossing the road AND yell at the bastard that almost hits him when he’s driving while texting, and I’ll do it while also advocating for texting while driving be illegal. I’m not going to place some blame on the driver, my kids knows the rules of crossing the street.

There exists a responsibility between both the individual and the society. To ignore individual responsibility is disadvantageous to a society.
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But the system is broken. To take your analogy to the next level the way the American corporate system currently works is thus:

Your child stands on the pavement. Looks left and right. Sees a speeding car, cautiously steps back further into the pavement. The sleeeding car with the texting driver mounts the pavement, mows him down and carries on along his way. The driver is not prosecuted. His text was economically vital and so he is entitled to monetarily compensate you as a parent for your loss without criminal penalty as he is generating wealth.

Individual accountability has not existed in our economic system for more than 40 years, it has been replaced by individualism which is absolutely not the same thing.
 
Joe Mac said:
But the system is broken. To take your analogy to the next level the way the American corporate system currently works is thus:

Your child stands on the pavement. Looks left and right. Sees a speeding car, cautiously steps back further into the pavement. The sleeeding car with the texting driver mounts the pavement, mows him down and carries on along his way. The driver is not prosecuted. His text was economically vital and so he is entitled to monetarily compensate you as a parent for your loss without criminal penalty as he is generating wealth.

Individual accountability has not existed in our economic system for more than 40 years, it has been replaced by individualism which is absolutely not the same thing.
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1000000% it’s fucked. Completely fucked. I just want the focus to be on making sure all kids have shoes on their feet first and that what waits for them on the other side of the street isn’t going to lynch them. Fuck who’s at blame. Let’s accept accountability for our agreed upon contract and instead ensure a better chance for all future children to safely cross this dangerous road of life.
 
Tys1 said:
1000000% it’s fucked. Completely fucked. I just want the focus to be on making sure all kids have shoes on their feet first and that what waits for them on the other side of the street isn’t going to lynch them. Fuck who’s at blame. Let’s accept accountability for our agreed upon contract and instead ensure a better chance for all future children to safely cross this dangerous road of life.
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The problem is that the system is so badly rigged. We believe that there isn’t enough pie to go around there is. It isn’t a case of just settling for that. There is scope to dream and there is money for kids to seek as much education as possible. It’s just all concentrated in an ever decreasing number of individuals and mega corporations. We teach individual responsibility to the kid who goes to university to better themselves and ends up with unsustainable levels of debt by trying to do the right thing. Through the criminal justice system we teach brutal individual responsibility to the lowest and most desperate in society. Yet we allow a certain sect to get richer and richer whilst abrogating all individual responsibility.
 
Joe Mac said:
The problem is that the system is so badly rigged. We believe that there isn’t enough pie to go around there is. It isn’t a case of just settling for that. There is scope to dream and there is money for kids to seek as much education as possible. It’s just all concentrated in an ever decreasing number of individuals and mega corporations. We teach individual responsibility to the kid who goes to university to better themselves and ends up with unsustainable levels of debt by trying to do the right thing. Through the criminal justice system we teach brutal individual responsibility to the lowest and most desperate in society. Yet we allow a certain sect to get richer and richer whilst abrogating all individual responsibility.
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Bingo! Our justice systems are not impartial when comparing class hierarchies. This is a major issue. Also, for those in the US, Citizens United means that those mega corporations (and mega individuals) are then allowed to buy the government that makes the rules. There’s no way to win under the current rules, they must be broken.... eventually they will be.
 
Indymisanthrope said:
Why not give him one first, then teach him? We learn better with full bellies.
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Sure, I’m all for it!

I just don’t want him to agree to pay $5 for lessons and then ask for his money back when he doesn’t land the state bass record the following year.
 
far too many leaders and members of the general public believe that poverty (and debt) are questions of irresponsibility and laziness. we can't teach a man to fish while ignoring why they may need to be taught- there is an unequal distribution of wealth and resources.

we are the same society that has made criminal justice focused on punishment instead of reform, so I don't really trust our fucked up imbalanced system to teach financial lessons and life choices. and as far as fixing things for the future while refusing to help the future's parents? seems like we are only creating more potential problems, and abdicating our responsibility to restructure society now.

history shows that empowering folks and giving them what they need to not be in desperate scenarios (or depressing and crippling student debt) doesn't hurt society by helping them shirk responsibility- it leads to better opportunities for the whole. sure, a few might skate by and not understand their lessons of debt, but not most. focusing only on the individual responsibility of nearly $2 trillion in student debt is overlooking the complexity of issue.
 
I can agree with 95% of the issues discussed in here and feel like we’re much more on the same page then the perception that’s being cast. My sentiment on a specific issue is starting to get painted with a very broad brush and lines are getting blurred past that of reality. If student debt forgiveness is the ticket to equality and fairness for the masses then give me a ticket! (I’ll pay you back later, promise)
 
Tys1 said:
I can agree with 95% of the issues discussed in here and feel like we’re much more on the same page then the perception that’s being cast. My sentiment on a specific issue is starting to get painted with a very broad brush and lines are getting blurred past that of reality. If student debt forgiveness is the ticket to equality and fairness for the masses then give me a ticket! (I’ll pay you back later, promise)
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sorry if anything I said came across as an attack, and I'm confident in saying none of the others are trying to take you on. I enjoy the discussion in here and respect your point of view on this topic. sometimes these discussions don't really get to happen and we feed an echo chamber if none of us disagree, and I know that people can unfortunately feel pushed out.

I mean, I still definitely disagree with you on this particular subject 😄 but I'm not putting you in a box, nor do I feel any ill will towards your perspective.
 
bfly said:
sorry if anything I said came across as an attack, and I'm confident in saying none of the others are trying to take you on. I enjoy the discussion in here and respect your point of view on this topic. sometimes these discussions don't really get to happen and we feed an echo chamber if none of us disagree, and I know that people can unfortunately feel pushed out.

I mean, I still definitely disagree with you on this particular subject 😄 but I'm not putting you in a box, nor do I feel any ill will towards your perspective.
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Awww, I appreciate you saying that! I certainly don’t intend on leaving as I too feel that it’s far too easy to push people away into smaller and smaller echo chambers. This idea of an echo chamber is prevalent in every place where social circles combine with digital platforms and it’s certainly not exclusive to politics! It’s increasingly difficult in today’s age to think critically and develop ones own ideals. I wish there was a wider range of opinion in this thread because willingness to communicate with opposing opinion is wildly undervalued. That said, I think I’ve exhausted my will to continue this topic and see it as a dead wire not worth further troubleshooting. We disagree, that’s cool. I still respect the shit out of you all.
 
bfly said:
far too many leaders and members of the general public believe that poverty (and debt) are questions of irresponsibility and laziness. we can't teach a man to fish while ignoring why they may need to be taught- there is an unequal distribution of wealth and resources.

we are the same society that has made criminal justice focused on punishment instead of reform, so I don't really trust our fucked up imbalanced system to teach financial lessons and life choices. and as far as fixing things for the future while refusing to help the future's parents? seems like we are only creating more potential problems, and abdicating our responsibility to restructure society now.

history shows that empowering folks and giving them what they need to not be in desperate scenarios (or depressing and crippling student debt) doesn't hurt society by helping them shirk responsibility- it leads to better opportunities for the whole. sure, a few might skate by and not understand their lessons of debt, but not most. focusing only on the individual responsibility of nearly $2 trillion in student debt is overlooking the complexity of issue.
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I wonder how much value is created by giving support even if a certain percentage are those don’t really take advantage of it. There has to be a tipping point as to how much is positive for a society. For all the waste that happens I’m sure a few people double the value they give back to society and make up for the waste. I don’t really have problems with that.

Another thing that I think that people don’t take into account that I am particularly sensitive to because I work in education is that Children are wholly dependent on adults for their needs. A child who grows up in a more stable household has more of a chance of becoming productive. I’m f we have to provide support to that family despite the adult is less than responsible I’m totally ok with that.

it’s funny we are talking about this because @Joe Mac watching The Crown on Netflix and I am firmly in the Thacher years. They show her as a very heartless and cold towards the less than fortunate.
 
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