Political Discussion

[BjorgenFjorgen]

Yeah, the point is not that people think Trump is going to be better than Biden on Israel/Palestine. The point is that for many--especially young people--the only pitch the Democratic party has ever given them is, "We're better than the other guys! Vote for us to save democracy!" And then when these young people see images and videos online of Israel committing genocide with their tax dollars, all while the US government claims it has no money to improve anybody's lives domestically, they say, "Well, I had one real red line, and that line was genocide." You can't support, fund and deny that and then tout the lesser-of-two-evils line anymore.

 

[Hemotep]

So what's the answer on November 5, 2024? We'd all love a third option, and we're not going to get it. Sit this one out and you assist in throwing it to one of the evilest morons ever to occupy the office, AGAIN. What's the plan?

Given the average voter, I'm assuming a bunch are thinking something along this kind of logic.

 

[ayayrawn]

So what's the answer on November 5, 2024? We'd all love a third option, and we're not going to get it. Sit this one out and you assist in throwing it to one of the evilest morons ever to occupy the office, AGAIN. What's the plan?

I'd redirect culpability from the voters to the candidates. What are Biden and co going to do in the next 10 months to not fumble the ball against said evil moron opponent? The Hillary Clinton school of "not being the other guy" is played out amd won't work again. He needs a fire lit under his ass. Him getting jolted by protestors at mother Emmanuel church a couple days ago is a good start.

 

[RenegadeMonster]

The political debate of generative AI is interesting right now.

Japan just passed a law that materials used for training AI is not subject to copyright law. Which I feel is the right way to go, because generative AI would be prohibitively expensive and not possible if all training material was subject to copyright and royalties. Changes to what we think of and manage copyrights need to be made. The current system is very old and rarely ever updated.

In the United States, all proposed bills on the topic of AI are about protecting the copyright holder. Such as one that would copyright a person's voice thus making generating spoken language verbally would be subject to copyright. Another seeks to protect artist's "likeness", protecting their copyright material from people requesting generative ai to make something in the style of fill in the blank.

Because the United States doesn't have any laws regarding AI yet, and likely wont anytime soon without efficient our congress works, everything is going to be decided in court. And that likely means existing copyright law will be enforced and everyone will sue saying "show me the money". The New York Times is leading the charge against Open AI with the first big lawsuit and real test. The New York Time is accusing Open AI (Makers of ChatGPT) of infringing on their copyright because New York Times publications were used in the training data for ChatGPT.

The lawsuit is getting a lot of coverage in business and finance publications. And most people in the comments section have the viewpoint that big tech is inherently evil and needs to be reigned in. And that copyright infringement is copyright infringement and that Open AI's excuse that because they are infringing on millions of pieces of copyrighted material at once instead of one doesn't fly and that they should pay up. Which I strongly disagree with. I look at it like a person. You absorb information from everywhere and this makes up your intelligence. And if the information you absorbed was copyrighted and you were subject to that copyright, you would need to payout royalties every time you open your mouth and speak. And it doesn't work like that.

 

[RenegadeMonster]

https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/s/1z4jKkb9DF

 

[Bull Shannon]

The political debate of generative AI is interesting right now.

Japan just passed a law that materials used for training AI is not subject to copyright law. Which I feel is the right way to go, because generative AI would be prohibitively expensive and not possible if all training material was subject to copyright and royalties. Changes to what we think of and manage copyrights need to be made. The current system is very old and rarely ever updated.

In the United States, all proposed bills on the topic of AI are about protecting the copyright holder. Such as one that would copyright a person's voice thus making generating spoken language verbally would be subject to copyright. Another seeks to protect artist's "likeness", protecting their copyright material from people requesting generative ai to make something in the style of fill in the blank.

Because the United States doesn't have any laws regarding AI yet, and likely wont anytime soon without efficient our congress works, everything is going to be decided in court. And that likely means existing copyright law will be enforced and everyone will sue saying "show me the money". The New York Times is leading the charge against Open AI with the first big lawsuit and real test. The New York Time is accusing Open AI (Makers of ChatGPT) of infringing on their copyright because New York Times publications were used in the training data for ChatGPT.

The lawsuit is getting a lot of coverage in business and finance publications. And most people in the comments section have the viewpoint that big tech is inherently evil and needs to be reigned in. And that copyright infringement is copyright infringement and that Open AI's excuse that because they are infringing on millions of pieces of copyrighted material at once instead of one doesn't fly and that they should pay up. Which I strongly disagree with. I look at it like a person. You absorb information from everywhere and this makes up your intelligence. And if the information you absorbed was copyrighted and you were subject to that copyright, you would need to payout royalties every time you open your mouth and speak. And it doesn't work like that.

I'm not sure it's so cut-and-dry when a human artist is filtering input through their tastes, experiences, and (most importantly) subconscious; that person then delivers an original work as a form of expression or communication. Generative AI is like dumping content into a mixer and asking it to deliver something indistinguishable from that previous content. We know the difference between artists with a clear influence and artists who are just copping someone else's style, and AI by nature is doing the latter. Furthermore, a human artist is (ostensibly) consuming art through legal means which support those artists who influence them. AI doesn't participate in community and culture in that capacity; it's scraping the web and grabbing work from people struggling to make a dime off their hard work.

Plus, we have people pulling crap like this:

The George Carlin AI Standup Is Worse Than You Can Imagine

As a long time Carlin fan, I was morbidly curious. I wish I had never clicked the link.

www.vice.com

I don't know how viable the Times' lawsuit is; in reading this commentary, I can't help but think it's a bit spurious, and it appears a lot of the basis for their suit hinges on the idea that you can ask ChatGPT to paraphrase a specific article (caveat: I follow the author on Bluesky and usually find them insightful, but find this article is little flippant in its tone):

The NY Times Lawsuit Against OpenAI Would Open Up The NY Times To All Sorts Of Lawsuits Should It Win

This week the NY Times somehow broke the story of… well, the NY Times suing OpenAI and Microsoft. I wonder who tipped them off. Anyhoo, the lawsuit in many ways is similar to some of the over a doz…

www.techdirt.com

Generally, I think it's a bummer that people keep marveling at the creative possibilities of generative ai, when in fact it delivers mostly junk art and junk answers. AI steals its information, and it steals badly.

 

[BjorgenFjorgen]

The political debate of generative AI is interesting right now.

Japan just passed a law that materials used for training AI is not subject to copyright law. Which I feel is the right way to go, because generative AI would be prohibitively expensive and not possible if all training material was subject to copyright and royalties. Changes to what we think of and manage copyrights need to be made. The current system is very old and rarely ever updated.

In the United States, all proposed bills on the topic of AI are about protecting the copyright holder. Such as one that would copyright a person's voice thus making generating spoken language verbally would be subject to copyright. Another seeks to protect artist's "likeness", protecting their copyright material from people requesting generative ai to make something in the style of fill in the blank.

Because the United States doesn't have any laws regarding AI yet, and likely wont anytime soon without efficient our congress works, everything is going to be decided in court. And that likely means existing copyright law will be enforced and everyone will sue saying "show me the money". The New York Times is leading the charge against Open AI with the first big lawsuit and real test. The New York Time is accusing Open AI (Makers of ChatGPT) of infringing on their copyright because New York Times publications were used in the training data for ChatGPT.

The lawsuit is getting a lot of coverage in business and finance publications. And most people in the comments section have the viewpoint that big tech is inherently evil and needs to be reigned in. And that copyright infringement is copyright infringement and that Open AI's excuse that because they are infringing on millions of pieces of copyrighted material at once instead of one doesn't fly and that they should pay up. Which I strongly disagree with. I look at it like a person. You absorb information from everywhere and this makes up your intelligence. And if the information you absorbed was copyrighted and you were subject to that copyright, you would need to payout royalties every time you open your mouth and speak. And it doesn't work like that.

If your business relies on theft, you don't have a business. Rewriting copyright law to allow these companies that scraped datasets they don't own or license in order to train their models does not make any sense.

Your analogy at the end is neither correct nor relevant. OpenAI is making a profit off of their product; you don't make a profit by telling your friend something you learned by reading a newspaper.

 

[yukbon]

Given the average voter, I'm assuming a bunch are thinking something along this kind of logic.

Those count as votes for trump. You may not like it, but that’s the way of it.

I'd redirect culpability from the voters to the candidates. What are Biden and co going to do in the next 10 months to not fumble the ball against said evil moron opponent? The Hillary Clinton school of "not being the other guy" is played out amd won't work again. He needs a fire lit under his ass. Him getting jolted by protestors at mother Emmanuel church a couple days ago is a good start.

You’re not wrong, but it ultimately doesn’t matter because the game is rigged so that it’s one or the other. Biden can’t move against Israel (I assume mostly for political and policy reasons). He can’t or won’t, either way, that path is a no go.

If that’s enough for someone to shrug their shoulders and let trump in again, knowing that he’s putin’s stooge, that he’s going to sell national secrets, that he’s going to continue a policy of anti woman, anti lgbt, anti labor, anti education, racism and fascism, while also letting Israel do whatever the hell it wants to Gaza and Palestine. Man, they deserve trump, and the real tragedy is that it’ll take the rest of us down with them.

Anyone that doesn’t vote for Biden, whether or not they like or want or agree with Biden, is voting for trump. It’ll be a shit show and both he and all the racist redhats will feel emboldened to be even more brash and brazen.

 

[ayayrawn]

Those count as votes for trump. You may not like it, but that’s the way of it.



You’re not wrong, but it ultimately doesn’t matter because the game is rigged so that it’s one or the other. Biden can’t move against Israel (I assume mostly for political and policy reasons). He can’t or won’t, either way, that path is a no go.

If that’s enough for someone to shrug their shoulders and let trump in again, knowing that he’s putin’s stooge, that he’s going to sell national secrets, that he’s going to continue a policy of anti woman, anti lgbt, anti labor, anti education, racism and fascism, while also letting Israel do whatever the hell it wants to Gaza and Palestine. Man, they deserve trump, and the real tragedy is that it’ll take the rest of us down with them.

Anyone that doesn’t vote for Biden, whether or not they like or want or agree with Biden, is voting for trump. It’ll be a shit show and both he and all the racist redhats will feel emboldened to be even more brash and brazen.

Openly aiding and abetting a genocide seems like a pretty good reason to not support a candidate to me. Shaming and conflating people who oppose that to supporting the further right wing candidate, especially people who's lives haven't gotten materially better under this incumbent, isn't going to work. Joe might have gotten by on doing nothing in 2020, but it won't work this time.

In the '80s, when Israel was bombing the shit out of Beirut, Reagan called Begin and demanded it stop, and it did the next day. That is to say Biden is further to the right than Reagan on this. He won't because he's a scumbag. Ultimately, it's going to foster a lot of apathy from voters leading into November, and I won't blame them.

 

[Hemotep]

Those count as votes for trump. You may not like it, but that’s the way of it.



You’re not wrong, but it ultimately doesn’t matter because the game is rigged so that it’s one or the other. Biden can’t move against Israel (I assume mostly for political and policy reasons). He can’t or won’t, either way, that path is a no go.

If that’s enough for someone to shrug their shoulders and let trump in again, knowing that he’s putin’s stooge, that he’s going to sell national secrets, that he’s going to continue a policy of anti woman, anti lgbt, anti labor, anti education, racism and fascism, while also letting Israel do whatever the hell it wants to Gaza and Palestine. Man, they deserve trump, and the real tragedy is that it’ll take the rest of us down with them.

Anyone that doesn’t vote for Biden, whether or not they like or want or agree with Biden, is voting for trump. It’ll be a shit show and both he and all the racist redhats will feel emboldened to be even more brash and brazen.

I think it really does matter, because while you and many of us are convinced that Trump (and really any Republican) must not get in the White House again no matter what, that's not nearly a strong enough argument for a lot of voters even if maybe it should be now more than ever before. And frankly it doesn't matter how convinced anyone is that it's handing it to Trump, because obviously that's not a compelling enough reason for a ton of Americans to make it so that Biden is a shoe in. In fact he's probably going to lose.

Maybe, and it's a big maybe, if he starts A.) Going hard after Trump and stops trying to not piss off Republicans and B.) Actually gives voters more of a reason to vote for him than "I'm not Trump," he'll have a chance. But if he doesn't do that then the only slight chance in hell he has of not losing is if Trump ends up behind bars and we all know as deserved as that is it's going to lead to a lot of violence. No matter what it's pretty much assured that we're fucked come November and Biden isn't doing anything to help reassure people that we aren't. Even if he wins it's going to be a gd nightmare with these right wing nuts and he can't slide through another four years of whatever it is he thinks he's doing now without them continuing to be a clear and constant danger to democracy. These asshats won't disappear with Trump and failing to address that is going to come to head sooner or later.

 

[Hemotep]

I think it really does matter, because while you and many of us are convinced that Trump (and really any Republican) must not get in the White House again no matter what, that's not nearly a strong enough argument for a lot of voters even if maybe it should be now more than ever before. And frankly it doesn't matter how convinced anyone is that it's handing it to Trump, because obviously that's not a compelling enough reason for a ton of Americans to make it so that Biden is a shoe in. In fact he's probably going to lose.

Maybe, and it's a big maybe, if he starts A.) Going hard after Trump and stops trying to not piss off Republicans and B.) Actually gives voters more of a reason to vote for him than "I'm not Trump," he'll have a chance. But if he doesn't do that then the only slight chance in hell he has of not losing is if Trump ends up behind bars and we all know as deserved as that is it's going to lead to a lot of violence. No matter what it's pretty much assured that we're fucked come November and Biden isn't doing anything to help reassure people that we aren't. Even if he wins it's going to be a gd nightmare with these right wing nuts and he can't slide through another four years of whatever it is he thinks he's doing now without them continuing to be a clear and constant danger to democracy. These asshats won't disappear with Trump and failing to address that is going to come to head sooner or later.

And to add to that, no one will be more to blame if Biden loses than Biden himself.

 

[ayayrawn]

And to add to that, no one will be more to blame if Biden loses than Biden himself.

This right here. He's already run against this dude once, know's what he's about and capable of. The country's already been subjected to 4 years of him.

If you 1) can't convince people that it's not worth going back to that, and 2) don't do anything substantial to prevent fuckery despite widespread attempts, then honestly you're just a fucking moron.

 

[Hemotep]

This right here. He's already run against this dude once, know's what he's about and capable of. The country's already been subjected to 4 years of him.

If you 1) can't convince people that it's not worth going back to that, and 2) don't do anything substantial to prevent fuckery despite widespread attempts, then honestly you're just a fucking moron.

It's just too common that the Dems put their head in the sand. While the Republicans were plotting an illegal steal of the election again (see W) the two most powerful Democrats, Pelosi and Biden, were saying that we needed a strong Republican party and bragging that they were friends. Meanwhile the traitors are still in office, Trump is the leading candidate in the polls, and most Americans are embracing fascism. It's not just those not voting for Biden, Trump also broke records with people who voted for him. It's not anti-Biden that's the biggest problem, it's that there are a shit ton of pro-Trump Americans. Those people are a ton of the country and aren't going to stop being willing to support people like Trump even after he's gone.

And supporting a genocide is just a holy shit what the fuck kind of thing, but I do agree that Trump would be encouraging it even more and probably offering troops to aid in it. He's hands down worse than Biden in every single way. And Biden still looks like a loser. I hate that we're at a place where I can completely understand why people think any moron, even one supporting the genocide of Palestinians is better than Trump, but that is a shit sandwich to swallow. It's a ridiculous position to be in. It's no wonder so many people around the world hate Americans. Our heads are so far up our collective asses that we're a global danger.

 

[yukbon]

Openly aiding and abetting a genocide seems like a pretty good reason to not support a candidate to me.

I agree, but: both candidates will back Israel. A vote for no one is voting for "genocide + fascist trump" and a vote for biden is "genocide + no trump". It's the trolley problem, and it sucks, but there we are.

 

[Hemotep]

I agree, but: both candidates will back Israel. A vote for no one is voting for "genocide + fascist trump" and a vote for biden is "genocide + no trump". It's the trolley problem, and it sucks, but there we are.

I agree with the last part, but I think Trump supporters could say the same exact thing, that not voting is a vote for Biden. It's just not a claim that holds water even if we wish it were so. A bunch of non voters could easily go vote for Trump if they go to the polls. Biden needs to convince people to vote for him. This kind of thinking is what cost Hillary the election and Biden needs to not repeat that mistake.

 

[avecigrec]

This kind of thinking is what cost Hillary the election

Hillary cost Hillary the election. She could have run against Kissinger, Stalin or Putin and lost. She never for a moment stood a chance. And the fact that not only did so many resources get wasted for her narcissistic goals but that they actively fucked Bernie in the process (who would have stood a chance) was just frustrating, painful and infuriating to watch...

 

[yukbon]

I agree with the last part, but I think Trump supporters could say the same exact thing, that not voting is a vote for Biden. It's just not a claim that holds water even if we wish it were so. A bunch of non voters could easily go vote for Trump if they go to the polls. Biden needs to convince people to vote for him. This kind of thinking is what cost Hillary the election and Biden needs to not repeat that mistake.

Realistically if you're the kind of person that is upset about genocide of palestinians, I feel it's safe to say you're not the kind of person that votes for Trump, by and large.

 

[Hemotep]

Realistically if you're the kind of person that is upset about genocide of palestinians, I feel it's safe to say you're not the kind of person that votes for Trump, by and large.

Absolutely, but that's not the only reason people aren't wanting to vote for either candidate. They're both very unpopular presidents even before this round of violence began. It's just an easier and current example of their shittiness. It's a lot harder to morally sit it out when it's Biden's garbage economics and loathing of the young and their problems and futures. But supporting this Israeli genocide machine, that gives moral ammunition and creates that trolly problem that many are disgusted by being forced into that position and refuse to play. And some don't care about the Palestinians at all and still just don't like him for other reasons. The bottom line is that he can't be a single issue candidate anymore. He has to be out there vocally against the violence, vocally pro choice, vocally pro income equality, etc. etc. etc. and he needs to hit Trump with everything he's got over and over and over again. He needs to go on the offensive against the speaker of the house and the others wackos too. He needs to stop acting like he's a tough guy and he actually needs to fight for Americans. Even if he fails to accomplish the goals he needs to be out there making people believe he's even trying.

And I know @avecigrec probably disagrees with me on this, but I still think Hillary is way more likable than Biden or Harris ever have been, which isn't exactly a compliment of Hillary.

 

[Hemotep]

By the way, I love you all and hope that we all support the folks who are going to be targeted and even more vulnerable to the growing hate in this country. The next few years are going to be hard and we're going to need to have solidarity to make it through the challenges.

 

[Hemotep]

I know our current landscape rewards a certain amount of grandstanding but I think Biden is craftier on this front than he gets credit for. Let’s not forget that when heckled at his own SOTU he managed to get the opposition party to promise not to propose cuts to Social Security and Medicare, on live TV.

And when the Republicans were negotiating a deal to raise the debt ceiling? Can anyone remember what major concessions they extracted from the president? You probably can’t, because there were none.

Yes, but those are wins for Democrats not for most Americans. He promised more of the same but the same is what gave us Trump in the first place. He's done fine with not really having either the house or the Senate (Sinema and Manchin acted like Republicans more often then not). But that doesn't show the average American that he's fixing their problems. That's the problem we've had for decades with the American presidency and their neoliberal policies. They don't do enough for people and they think if the numbers go up that they're a success. But it's not convincing people anymore because we can't afford to live and all our jobs suck ass and the planet is on fire.