Television

Mad Men is my favorite TV drama of all times but I still haven’t found a way to encapsulate why. Most of the characters are flawed and nuanced. I love the look of the show and the evolution, not only of some of the characters but also of the 1960s (the slow decent of Pete Campbell’s hairline is immaculately done). It is also much funnier (in a very dark sense) than it gets credit for. Their are several redeeming characters, most of the women in particular a worthy; Peggy, Joan, Megan, even Sally (especially Sally). The two biggest flaws I have with the show overall, is them deciding to stick January Jones in a fat suit for an entire season and the whole “Glen” character which seemed more like a way to shoe-horn in Matthew Weiner’s son into the show for the sake of an acting career.

I will say I am not convinced Mad Men is for everyone. I have a hard time explaining its brilliance to those that don’t care for it. Strictly from an aesthetics standpoint, if the show was complete devoid of plot and was just a bunch of recreated images of 1960s New York and LA, I think I would have still watched the whole thing. It’s an incredibly well crafted show.
Yeah; I can't think of a strong argument against "these people aren't very nice or good," because most of them aren't; there are a few truly good people like Peggy, but most of them are fun to watch despite themselves. I think the show balances its tone really well; I'd say it's well known for its Serious Themes and literary short-story allusions, but I think people underrate the workplace sitcom hangout of it all.

Also, with every rewatch I find myself loving Betty Draper more and more. That may be due to January Jones's increasingly-unhinged instagram winning me over, though.
 
I think that is where the divide falls with people that love or hate breaking bad (except maybe the people who just think "drugs and murder are cool!") The people that really want someone to root for and feel good about got left behind in that show. I think he is clearly an anti-hero and even though it is possible to pretend that his actions are justified at first, it doesn't take long to become clear that he goes (and keeps going) way farther than he needed to down the criminal path if it was just about his family.

It's been a long time but from what I remember Mad Men seemed, to me, like just a bunch of incredibly selfish assholes going about their lives and it wasn't a world that I was interested in just hanging out in or found enjoyable. I didn't find any of those character studies as interesting I guess.
Better Call Saul I think has told a similar story to Breaking Bad but I think it proves that Jimmy McGill feels like (at least at this point) to have a conscious and feels guilt for his actions on a much more human scale than Walt ever did, White used his family and health situation to manipulate others and justify his actions but he never saw any remorsefulness, Jimmy is selfish and has a chip on his shoulder but you get a sense that while he revels in being a sneaky rat fuck he also kinda hates himself for it once the glow of the moment subsides.
 
Better Call Saul I think has told a similar story to Breaking Bad but I think it proves that Jimmy McGill feels like (at least at this point) to have a conscious and feels guilt for his actions on a much more human scale than Walt ever did, White used his family and health situation to manipulate others and justify his actions but he never saw any remorsefulness, Jimmy is selfish and has a chip on his shoulder but you get a sense that while he revels in being a sneaky rat fuck he also kinda hates himself for it once the glow of the moment subsides.
Yeah I think he is a far more sympathetic character for a lot of reasons. Even his clear flaws they set up for you to want to forgive somewhat based on his backstory. I think it was a conscious decision not to come up with things in Walt's past that made you understand why he might have turned out the way he did to avoid sympathetic explanation.

Both really great shows.
 
I still am convinced I missed something, because so many people love it. I just couldn't figure it out and we definitely got to a point where we weren't remotely eagerly anticipating the next episode. I'll give it another shot someday.
My girlfriend absolutely hates almost all dramas (tv or movies) she will tolerate me watching them but she, herself had never sought them out. Though she had casually watch the Mad Men with me since it’s debut, I never thought it was something she enjoyed... that is until towards the end of the shows run when I can home from work one day to find her binging through the first season on DVD, I guess somewhere around season 3 or 4 something had clicked for her and she really got pulled in and decided that since she had not payed super close attention to the first few seasons that she needed to start back over from the beginning. I think I have now rewatched it with her a few times and is still the only drama that I could really point to that she completely enjoys. She did just watch the Sopranos and the Wire with me for her first time, I think she enjoyed The Sopranos more than Wire for the record, I don’t know if she would actually enjoy rewatching either series again.
 
Mad Men on the other hand, I hated everyone in it and I didn't get the point or find the overall story, in the first couple of seasons at least, compelling enough to warrant that,
A show like Succession has even less likeable characters yet they were played so wonderfully by the actors, the more I watched the more I became invested. With Mad Men, I liked quite a few of the characters initially and the style of the show kept me interested even before the storylines pulled me in.

The show's pretty clear that he's a monster and gleefully dares to you stop watching
That's a good way to put it. "here's your anti-hero, go ahead root for him among all the other deplorables." It works. Although I have a very hard time with Melfi staying with him/treating him that long. I realize the show demonstrates that she's getting something out of it too...still, he's so aggressive towards her, it gets beyond uncomfortable to watch.

them deciding to stick January Jones in a fat suit for an entire season
I had forgotten about that until my re-watch. I remember wondering - who did she piss off? Her character got some shit storyline decisions in Last Man on Earth too. Maybe she does piss off the creators of these shows.

I could talk about these shows for days.
Mad Men, BB, Saul, The Wire, Deadwood, Sopranos. That's like my A+ TV list right there.
 
I agree, it helps to be into the 1960s/mid-century aesthetics for it to really work. I love that, so I would have probably kept watching too. I remember watching all of Pan Am for that same reason when it aired even though it was not a very good show.

Mad Men is very formal and neat. Everyone is fancy, eloquent and put together on the surface, but then behind the scenes it's obvious not that way. Workplaces were so structured compared to what we have today. There would be no secretaries for the executives in today's offices, there would be no switchboard operators or sandwich cart guys, no drinking or smoking or any of that. It is fascinating seeing how different things were in that time period.
Completely. I would say, while Don is the shows obvious protagonist, the 1960s are the main character. Seeing the how much things changed over that decade is as interesting as any characters development over the shows run. I think Don’s lack of/resistance to change over the decade is one of the most interesting points of the show. 1960 Don and 1970 Don are effectively the same person which is amazing when you look at how much the world and people around him changed over that same 10 year span.
 
My girlfriend absolutely hates almost all dramas (tv or movies) she will tolerate me watching them but she, herself had never sought them out. Though she had casually watch the Mad Men with me since it’s debut, I never thought it was something she enjoyed... that is until towards the end of the shows run when I can home from work one day to find her binging through the first season on DVD, I guess somewhere around season 3 or 4 something had clicked for her and she really got pulled in and decided that since she had not payed super close attention to the first few seasons that she needed to start back over from the beginning. I think I have now rewatched it with her a few times and is still the only drama that I could really point to that she completely enjoys. She did just watch the Sopranos and the Wire with me for her first time, I think she enjoyed The Sopranos more than Wire for the record, I don’t know if she would actually enjoy rewatching either series again.
My wife will watch most modern ones with me and enjoys Better Call Saul, for instance. I have a hard time convincing her to stick with the older, somewhat slower paced shows, like the Wire and the Sopranos, which is too bad. We recently petered out in season two of the Wire on her first watch :cry:. I think pacing and prevalence of cliffhanger, binge-encouraging, episode endings has changed a lot since then and made it harder for some people to appreciate slower burning arcs. Maybe it would be better if I could convince her to commit to one a week, but I'm not pushing it. Oh well!
 
A show like Succession has even less likeable characters yet they were played so wonderfully by the actors, the more I watched the more I became invested. With Mad Men, I liked quite a few of the characters initially and the style of the show kept me interested even before the storylines pulled me in.
That's true and I love Succession as well. It feels really different to me though as it seems more set up to really marvel at how horrible they are in a sometimes darkly comedic way. Pretty thrilling along the way as well.

Perhaps my perspective has changed and I would appreciate Mad Men more today than I did 8 years ago or so. I dunno if I could convince my wife to give it another chance though!
 
Mad Men is my favorite show probably ever. I see it as one of the most richly detailed, rewarding, novelistic shows of the era. And although Don and many characters could be labeled anti-heroes I guess, to me thats not quite the point. The point is to showcase the depths of these characters; with all of their flaws. Because that’s more accurate for people in general. People aren’t simply good or bad, there’s so much nuance and contradictions within everyone. This show shows that deeply, and then pushed you to feel some sense of sympathy for anyone. Peggy is your likeliest source of an actual hero, but even she contains layers of flaws. And for as bad as Don can be to people, there’s something weirdly sympathetic about his backstory and how he handles it - which I guess is an unpopular opinion. And well maybe it’s not entirely sympathy, but there’s some element that draws me into his psyche that I find so fascinating. I think other shows being discussed here do the same thing. But for me Mad Men has always been the one on top.

I think Breaking Bad is great, but yeah it’s clear to me how much I don’t like Walt when watching it again. But that’s not really the point? The point is more the decline of him as a person. And for as much heartbreak and sympathy I and many feel towards Jesse, he’s still a really fucked up character to root for. But there’s at least an element of him wanting out, or wanting to change, almost the reverse of Walt. That’s in interesting dynamic to watch unfold.

I’m still slowly making my way through The Sopranos so I can’t fully comment on anything yet. But from the get-go it is clear to me that this show is doing what the others did, but it came first. And it’s more obvious that Tony is a piece of a shit, but it’s almost slowly drawing you in to make you feel something for him...and then bam he does something inexcusably bad again. It’s a lot of fun to feel that as you watch it.

On a completely different level, the show Girls always got criticism for having unlikable characters. But that’s the draw! It’s showing incredibly narcissistic, flawed hipsters and pushing you to get involved in their self-absorbed lives. It’s also a comedy, so once you get into its groove, it becomes easier and easier to just laugh at everybody for how bad they are. Again, not everyone’s cup of tea, but I find a lot to like in it.

I guess the more I see it, these shows are flipping your expectations and asking you to watch “bad” people on purpose, to give you something new. Protagonists are often the heroes, but they don’t necessarily have to be. You don’t have to root for someone or relate to something for it to be impactful, interesting, and brilliant.
 
Mad Men is my favorite show probably ever. I see it as one of the most richly detailed, rewarding, novelistic shows of the era. And although Don and many characters could be labeled anti-heroes I guess, to me thats not quite the point. The point is to showcase the depths of these characters; with all of their flaws. Because that’s more accurate for people in general. People aren’t simply good or bad, there’s so much nuance and contradictions within everyone. This show shows that deeply, and then pushed you to feel some sense of sympathy for anyone. Peggy is your likeliest source of an actual hero, but even she contains layers of flaws. And for as bad as Don can be to people, there’s something weirdly sympathetic about his backstory and how he handles it - which I guess is an unpopular opinion. And well maybe it’s not entirely sympathy, but there’s some element that draws me into his psyche that I find so fascinating. I think other shows being discussed here do the same thing. But for me Mad Men has always been the one on top.

I think Breaking Bad is great, but yeah it’s clear to me how much I don’t like Walt when watching it again. But that’s not really the point? The point is more the decline of him as a person. And for as much heartbreak and sympathy I and many feel towards Jesse, he’s still a really fucked up character to root for. But there’s at least an element of him wanting out, or wanting to change, almost the reverse of Walt. That’s in interesting dynamic to watch unfold.

I’m still slowly making my way through The Sopranos so I can’t fully comment on anything yet. But from the get-go it is clear to me that this show is doing what the others did, but it came first. And it’s more obvious that Tony is a piece of a shit, but it’s almost slowly drawing you in to make you feel something for him...and then bam he does something inexcusably bad again. It’s a lot of fun to feel that as you watch it.

On a completely different level, the show Girls always got criticism for having unlikable characters. But that’s the draw! It’s showing incredibly narcissistic, flawed hipsters and pushing you to get involved in their self-absorbed lives. It’s also a comedy, so once you get into its groove, it becomes easier and easier to just laugh at everybody for how bad they are. Again, not everyone’s cup of tea, but I find a lot to like in it.

I guess the more I see it, these shows are flipping your expectations and asking you to watch “bad” people on purpose, to give you something new. Protagonists are often the heroes, but they don’t necessarily have to be. You don’t have to root for someone or relate to something for it to be impactful, interesting, and brilliant.
Completely agree about Girls. That show was very polarizing to many but I absolutely loved it. It was a reflection of the self-obsessed nature of white upper middle class millennials and though I was always more on the lower middle class part of the socio-economic scale many of the barbs the show delivered were very relatable, If not directly than to people I knew or was friends with. Who better to laugh at than yourself?
 
I liked season 1 of Girls mostly, when season 2 came out I powered through it even though I started to not be excited for new episodes. I remember watching the first episode of season 3 and just hating it. I... do not look fondly on that show. I have not seen it since so my views could change again.
 
I liked season 1 of Girls mostly, when season 2 came out I powered through it even though I started to not be excited for new episodes. I remember watching the first episode of season 3 and just hating it. I... do not look fondly on that show. I have not seen it since so my views could change again.
I had mixed feelings about it as well but generally enjoyed it the first couple seasons. Then, in the words of Mike Eagle, "Looked up what Lena Dunham said and I shouldn't have!" too many times and got less interested in watching her or her show.
 
I had mixed feelings about it as well but generally enjoyed it the first couple seasons. Then, in the words of Mike Eagle, "Looked up what Lena Dunham said and I shouldn't have!" too many times and got less interested in watching her or her show.
Yeah, I don't like Lena Dunham at all. All of her controversial things she's done/said have been nails in the coffin for me ever wanting to go back and finish it.

This is no longer an active twitter but worth a scroll to see some good ones

 
Yeah, I don't like Lena Dunham at all. All of her controversial things she's done/said have been nails in the coffin for me ever wanting to go back and finish it.

This is no longer an active twitter but worth a scroll to see some good ones

I was so un-attached from what she said or has done in her life that I never knew about anything honestly. Just watched the show
 
Sopranos finale thoughts now that I've watched it all the way through again. I'll put it in spoilers.

I don't know how else the show should have ended for Tony. Any official wrap-up wouldn't have made sense in my opinion. We know that no matter what was resolved with other families, the dispensing of Phil being the last one we saw, the nature of this is for some other boss to get unhappy and continue the cycle of discontentment and eventual violence between families to deal with that.

Through the run of the show we had already seen so many highs and lows for Tony, so what else could you do besides kill him, or leave it as it started? It was a glimpse into his life without a real beginning or end.

It's not like him winning a big bet, or losing a friend, getting shot, or separating from Carmela would have signified any end, as we saw all of that happen throughout its run.

I obviously don't know if he was about to be killed when the door opened and he looked up, nothing led me to believe it was imminent at that moment, so I don't think so.

Also, I don't know if the final season's story about Junior was meant to shed light on how bad it can be for unloved patients in state homes, but his life was dismal and clearly he was just going to sit there until he passed. Is it easier for him that he doesn't even remember his life anymore? That's such a sad ending for him.
 
Catching up on For All Mankind; the first couple episodes are deeply uneven, mostly thanks to aimless and mediocre direction by Seth Gordon, but the following couple have been pleasantly strong, and I’m really starting to get into it. There’s more rigor given to the concept than I expected.
 
Catching up on For All Mankind; the first couple episodes are deeply uneven, mostly thanks to aimless and mediocre direction by Seth Gordon, but the following couple have been pleasantly strong, and I’m really starting to get into it. There’s more rigor given to the concept than I expected.
Definitely agree. Took us a good 3-4 episodes for it to fully engage. Looking forward to the new season starting tomorrow
 
In And Of Itself on Hulu is fantastic. An incredible one person show. Definitely watch when not distracted.
 
But yesterday i watched the documentary Song Exploder. It's about how musicians wrote some of their hits. It is really, REALLY interesting. First season has Alicia Keys, REM, Ty Dollar Sign and Lin Manuel Miranda; next week there'll be another four episodes: Nine Inch Nails, The Killers, Natalia Lafourcade and Dua Lipa.
We watched the Nine Inch Nails and Killers one last night. Really enjoyed them. Going to watch REM and Lin Manuel Miranda tonight. The NIN one made me realize I made a horrible mistake not going to see them in concert a few years ago in San Antonio.
 
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