Television

The famous scene from the game that was portrayed tonight.



I definitely feel like they are rushing the story at this point. I'm still very much enjoying it. And they are doing a phenomenal job of setting up the character motivations and plotlines of the second game as well as fleshing out the secondary characters.

But they also aren't giving enough time for things to breathe and evolve between Joel and Ellie. If you consider that episodes 1 & 3 don't involve their relationship and next week's episode is going to delve into Ellie's backstory (which wasn't covered until after the end of the 1st game), and I am growing concerned the ending won't land as seamlessly as in the game.
 
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DownIsTheNewUp said:
But they also aren't giving enough time for things to breathe and evolve between Joel and Ellie.
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I dunno if I am on the same page as you with this. I've been replaying the game along with the show and made it up to her running away after defending the dam. He's basically still just being distant and stern with her. And his outward portrayal is still that he wants to offload her where the show gives a lot more direct confirmation that he does care for her. It seems like they added more visible nuance to their relationship and more direct confirmation of those feelings than that to the show up to the same equivalent point. It's not like there are a bunch of meaningful conversations that were skipped, just little short Triangle prompted conversations, right? Or the little unprompted ones, like the puns and whistling, which I love that they included in the show. Am I forgetting something? There is a good jump between there and the conclusion of the University that I haven't played again yet.
 
dhodo said:
I dunno if I am on the same page as you with this. I've been replaying the game along with the show and made it up to her running away after defending the dam. He's basically still just being distant and stern with her. And his outward portrayal is still that he wants to offload her where the show gives a lot more direct confirmation that he does care for her. It seems like they added more visible nuance to their relationship and more direct confirmation of those feelings than that to the show up to the same equivalent point. It's not like there are a bunch of meaningful conversations that were skipped, just little short Triangle prompted conversations, right? Am I forgetting something? There is a good jump between there and the conclusion of the University that I haven't played again yet.
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Tbh, I haven't replayed the game since 2020 right b4 game 2 dropped. My old film school prof (screenwriter) has been holding chats on his FB and I'll copy and paste parts of a convo that was started by my comment above:

GIRL:
I tend to agree. I didn’t play the game but read a lot about the reactions people had to it and how close they felt to the characters. I’m really enjoying the show, but I think the creators are working from a position where they’ve spent hundreds of hours with these people already, but are forgetting that some viewers haven’t.

There was a line in the episode last night establishing that Joel and Ellie have spent months together, and they walked from St. Louis to Wyoming. I see their familiarity with each other in their interactions now, the actors are selling it perfectly. I just wish I could’ve seen more of that bond grow. Not sure if the pacing would be thrown off by stretching out their journey a little, but they could’ve added more vignettes and flashbacks of Joel and Ellie’s past if it started to lag.

ME:
I agree that I wish they were covering more of their travels and wouldn't have cared if that meant they were writing entirely new scenes.

The thing about games is that the medium is unique in its non-passivity. Story driven games are about the link created between the player and the character. In Shadows of Collusus (the game that ended the argument over whether games were art) that meant slowly building a sense of guilt in the player until it became overwhelming. Eventually realizing that your self-serving objective in the game amounts to killing mythological creatures that are essentially gorgeous, endangered species. The player then has to make the decision whether to go through with that objective or rage quit the game.

In the LoU, it meant 20 hours of building a sense of responsibility over Ellie's safety. And while that's happening, even often in moments of pure gameplay, her personality is shining through via the banter or decisons she is making. You grow attached to her and both characters evolve in ways that feel earned... and that makes the ending work.

Right now, I feel like that haven't laid enough of the groundwork in Joel and Ellie's relationship for the evolution in their dynamics to feel earned. Because you're right-- they are using time gaps (which do exist in the game btw) and acting chops to fill in the blanks instead of actual camera time.

And it's making me worry that the ending won't land as seamlessly as it does in the game.

PROFESSOR: You're both right, but I think they're doing great given their budgetary limitations. And they do have them.

ME:
Agreed Jeff. One other thing I'd add--

I think part of what Niel and Craig were struggling with in adapting is that you can't have the constant encounters with clickers, ext. Both both because of budget reasons and because that would grow tiresome and unbelievable within this medium.
But so much of the character development happens within those moments.

For example, in the game, Ellie runs away when she finds out she is going to be handed off to Tommy. And then Joel and Tommy have a side adventure tracking her down. Which ends with them finding her reading the book and starts the whole scene in question. So the stakes have been raised right before the scene because you as the player are worried about her safety right as Joel is relaizing that he is too.
And in between, you get to know Tommy a bit... but there is also a lot of gameplay. Aka killing clickers.

So instead, they gutted that whole hour long (or there abouts) section of the game, insert the scene in question and then give Ellie the choice.
Makes sense in some ways when you consider the hurdles of filmmaking. Also probably less effective in regards to emotional stakes.

------

Basically, I think what I'm struggling with is that we really haven't spent much time with Joel and Ellie before the big emotional beat that came in the last episode. If you think about it-- you had almost all of episode 1 spent in the past, almost all of episode 3 spent with Frank and Bill and now next week's episode is gonna be covering Ellie's backstory-- which wasn't even covered until AFTER game 1 via DLC. And while that DLC is incredible and I'm glad they are including it-- it basically means we will get roughly 6 episodes with Ellie and Joel before the season concludes.
 
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DownIsTheNewUp said:
I think part of what Niel and Craig were struggling with in adapting is that you can't have the constant encounters with clickers, ext. Both both because of budget reasons and because that would grow tiresome and unbelievable within this medium.
But so much of the character development happens within those moments.
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Yeah i was really thinking about this in the end of the last episode.

I was really struck by the differences between mediums by the impact portrayed in the way Joel choked out/broke the neck of the guy who stabbed him. It seemed to me to be presented as his old heartless self coming through in a moment of extreme violence that was supposed to unsettle you, whereas that exact animation would have played out like 300 times (by the players input) by the time you get to that point in the game.

I agree that it feels like you know them better but I'm not sure if I really felt that way on my first playthrough. Either way I'm quite happy with the job they've done on the show. Even with the more drastic changes of the last episode.

I'm not totally sure yet on how I feel about the addition of the utopia-like town that his brother was living in. I think showing that is possible pushes a little harder against whether or not pursuing the fireflies at all costs is the right decision as opposed to the game where there is never a place that feels safe for a significant amount of time. I don't think there was any point in the game where I was thinking it may have been better if they had just stayed as the threat of being killed was everywhere.
 
dhodo said:
Yeah i was really thinking about this in the end of the last episode.

I was really struck by the differences between mediums by the impact portrayed in the way Joel choked out/broke the neck of the guy who stabbed him. It seemed to me to be presented as his old heartless self coming through in a moment of extreme violence that was supposed to unsettle you, whereas that exact animation would have played out like 300 times (by the players input) by the time you get to that point in the game.

I agree that it feels like you know them better but I'm not sure if I really felt that way on my first playthrough. Either way I'm quite happy with the job they've done on the show. Even with the more drastic changes of the last episode.

I'm not totally sure yet on how I feel about the addition of the utopia-like town that his brother was living in. I think showing that is possible pushes a little harder against whether or not pursuing the fireflies at all costs is the right decision as opposed to the game where there is never a place that feels safe for a significant amount of time. I don't think there was any point in the game where I was thinking it may have been better if they had just stayed as the threat of being killed was everywhere.
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I can't do spolier tags from my phone-- but let's say the town is from PT II. And I was fine with them utilizing it.
 
Mather said:
It's actually in Part 1 as well.
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In the game Tommy's settlement doesn't really feel safe to me because minutes after arriving it is fully invaded by outlaws. Am I blanking on another part you are referring to?
 
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Finished The Sopranos! What a whirlwind. I watched it faster than I thought I would. Once I got its feeling down, I just didn't want to stop watching it. And ultimately I think the ending totally sticks the landing - which is not something I thought before I started. I always knew what the exact ending was, but I had no context for it. And I didn't know how to watch the show and what sorts of themes it was really playing around with. Now that I had all the context and lead-up, the final scene works so well in highlighting the point of death just being always hanging over us and how life gets ripped away. In that sense, I think the cut to black move is pretty great. The show ends sort of like how it always was, no gigantic payoff or major cliffhangers. Just business as usual mostly. It's not at all the same, but it does remind me of Atlanta's finale and how it was sort of the anti-finale. Nothing major happened, it just stuck so true to itself that it works as an ending.

In general, I think I get why the show is so acclaimed. As I said earlier, it really reminded me of Mad Men. And now I realize Mad Men basically took a lot of the template of how The Sopranos structured their episodes and did a very similar thing. Personally, I still prefer Mad Men over The Sopranos. But I'd love to do a rewatch of The Sopranos already and I just finished it.

And now I'm doing a rewatch of Mad Men. Just feels right.
 
Bennnnn said:
Finished The Sopranos! What a whirlwind. I watched it faster than I thought I would. Once I got its feeling down, I just didn't want to stop watching it. And ultimately I think the ending totally sticks the landing - which is not something I thought before I started. I always knew what the exact ending was, but I had no context for it. And I didn't know how to watch the show and what sorts of themes it was really playing around with. Now that I had all the context and lead-up, the final scene works so well in highlighting the point of death just being always hanging over us and how life gets ripped away. In that sense, I think the cut to black move is pretty great. The show ends sort of like how it always was, no gigantic payoff or major cliffhangers. Just business as usual mostly. It's not at all the same, but it does remind me of Atlanta's finale and how it was sort of the anti-finale. Nothing major happened, it just stuck so true to itself that it works as an ending.

In general, I think I get why the show is so acclaimed. As I said earlier, it really reminded me of Mad Men. And now I realize Mad Men basically took a lot of the template of how The Sopranos structured their episodes and did a very similar thing. Personally, I still prefer Mad Men over The Sopranos. But I'd love to do a rewatch of The Sopranos already and I just finished it.

And now I'm doing a rewatch of Mad Men. Just feels right.
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I agree Sopranos was one of the greats , and a perfect ending imo, I really need to watch The Saints of Newark which is a prequel movie to the tv show
 
Gavaxeman said:
I agree Sopranos was one of the greats , and a perfect ending imo, I really need to watch The Saints of Newark which is a prequel movie to the tv show
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The best thing I can say about the movie is that it makes you appreciate the TV show that much more. That’s not to say the movie is necessarily bad, it’s fine but without the Sopranos connection it’s a fairly mediocre mobster movie and the Sopranos related stuff doesn’t add much to the greater Tony Sopranos mythology. Also, while some of the recast younger characters are okay with their portrayals others almost come off as obnoxious caricatures. Still if you’re a fan it’s worth watching at least once.
 
TenderLovingKiller® said:
The best thing I can say about the movie is that it makes you appreciate the TV show that much more. That’s not to say the movie is necessarily bad, it’s fine but without the Sopranos connection it’s a fairly mediocre mobster movie and the Sopranos related stuff doesn’t add much to the greater Tony Sopranos mythology. Also, while some of the recast younger characters are okay with their portrayals others almost come off as obnoxious caricatures. Still if you’re a fan it’s worth watching at least once.
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Cheers ..I’ve had it ready to watch for ages but maybe not expecting much of it ..I’ll give it a go with low expectations!
 
TenderLovingKiller® said:
The best thing I can say about the movie is that it makes you appreciate the TV show that much more. That’s not to say the movie is necessarily bad, it’s fine but without the Sopranos connection it’s a fairly mediocre mobster movie and the Sopranos related stuff doesn’t add much to the greater Tony Sopranos mythology. Also, while some of the recast younger characters are okay with their portrayals others almost come off as obnoxious caricatures. Still if you’re a fan it’s worth watching at least once.
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That’s about what I thought it would be. Haven’t watched yet.
 
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