dhodo
Well-Known Member
You're probably right . If I didn't know better, I'd say maybe next time they'll press enough.
The Blue Note Thread
- Thread starter stpaulbrowns
- Start date
MikeH
Well-Known Member
Yea--that probably won't happen hah. They make a limited product and they know that's what makes it sell. They push FOMO as well with their pricing structure and their posts on facebook are pretty cringy IMO. Always posting things and saying stuff like "make sure to get this before it's gone or we change the price!" They also deleted a post someone else made criticizing them about the pricing structure a few weeks back.
They also always point to Johnny Griffin SRX still being in stock as a way to say that they don't want to press many more. And to be somewhat fair, when they started pressing this current batch, a lot of the SRX had not sold out and were still in store IIRC. They have only really blown up once these started going up for sale. I'm just surprised that the lead time is really 9 months at this point.
dhodo
Well-Known Member
It's just sad to see where they started with the focus being on the music and providing the best package and quality they could for a reasonable to price come to this. I'm really glad I have the MM pressings that I do have in my collection and they are definitely some of my favorite premium audiophile records, but I hate everything about what they turned into. If they started as that, I would just never think about them, kinda like Electric Recording Co. or something. It's the drastic change that I've watched happen that makes it hard for me to not care I guess.
MikeH
Well-Known Member
Yep--the problem is that they saw what the records sold for on discogs and ebay and wanted a piece of the action. They admitted that themselves. It never ends well when that happens. The MoFi One Steps and this SRX are the most I have ever spent on a single record (and I paid $90 and not full price for the One Steps I have) and I don't know that I plan on ever doing that again. As you said, MM used to be decently priced and I have quite a few now (And I started buying when they were around $40-$45 list price). So it's more disappointing when they have changed their policies so drastically because the quality is nice. I think the Electric Recording Co comparison is spot on...I'm intrigued by their albums but wouldn't pay the prices so it doesn't bother me what the prices/selling practics are. If they can sell out of small pressing quantities of really expensive reissues, go for it. MM just reminds me of the worst part of vinyl reissue labels and come off like cranky old guys selling records and being mad when other people sell them for more.
Russ I
Well-Known Member
If I were in PR for Music Matters Jazz and you all were a focus group, I'd be having a hell of a time making sense of all of this. On the one hand, it appears their product is of high enough quality (i.e., desirable) and their pricing reasonable enough that many are upset they missed the chance to purchase the most recent (and perhaps previous) SRX titles. At the same time, at least some who are willing to pay the set price are nevertheless upset about that pricing. Also, presumably, one of the attractions of the SRX titles is that they are limited, but that becomes a problem for those who miss out on these limited titles. So clearly the quality of product is not at issue because if the product sucked, no one would care about their marketing and sales behavior. Pricing is cause for griping, yet potential buyers (myself included) are climbing over one another in an effort to pay that price. And limited is good to the extent we can get in on it, but unreasonable if we can't. Whew! Does that just about cover it?
(I know I'm leaving out a significant piece of this by not addressing Music Matter's history and the path they've taken to get where things stand today, but that's a bit more difficult to factor in, and I'm not sure it's all that relevant because if it were, we have a gripe with record stores that are charging more for used records today than they were 15 years ago when no one was buying them. Oh, and I'm not pretending to be above all of this gripey, bitchy stuff, it's just that this particular issue isn't very personal for me and for weeks now (probably since last month's release) I've been looking for the logic in all of it.)
dhodo
Well-Known Member
I don't see the relevance in comparing out of print used record sale prices to the price that a company sets who is manufacturing a product at self decided levels of manufactured scarcity.If I were in PR for Music Matters Jazz and you all were a focus group, I'd be having a hell of a time making sense of all of this. On the one hand, it appears their product is of high enough quality (i.e., desirable) and their pricing reasonable enough that many are upset they missed the chance to purchase the most recent (and perhaps previous) SRX titles. At the same time, at least some who are willing to pay the set price are nevertheless upset about that pricing. Also, presumably, one of the attractions of the SRX titles is that they are limited, but that becomes a problem for those who miss out on these limited titles. So clearly the quality of product is not at issue because if the product sucked, no one would care about their marketing and sales behavior. Pricing is cause for griping, yet potential buyers (myself included) are climbing over one another in an effort to pay that price. And limited is good to the extent we can get in on it, but unreasonable if we can't. Whew! Does that just about cover it?
You can't ignore the history when you see why people like me are mad at them. They proved that they could manufacture and price at this quality around $40 give or take. The inflation in cost to manufacture, if it has gone up at all, has not gone up that much. It would be one thing if they raised it to $50. You also can't ignore their statements along the way about why they made these changes, that turned out to be bald faced lies.
You can be fine with their greedy pricing structure if you want, but especially lately, when Tone Poet has shown what the same quality can be achieved at, it is just blatantly opportunistic and greedy and I personally will not give them any of my business because of that. To pretend that it is difficult to see the logic in that opinion is puzzling.
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MikeH
Well-Known Member
Yea-- I hear ya on some of it. And I grabbed Speak No Evil despite my dislike of their practices. The bigger gripe I have is them raising prices on items as they get closer to sold out. I can't think of any other company that does it. What other store/label raises the price on their own new records when stock dips low? @dhodo hit the nail on the head -- comparing used record stores + MM's crazy pricing hikes are comparing apples to oranges. You have albums in their store that were $40 when they went on sale and are now $99 in their own store. It's not a new press...it's old stock and they price it that way because they see them selling on discogs for more than $40. I can't think of any store, even outside of vinyl, that raises the price on things that have sat in their shop for over a year. It's mind-boggling to me.If I were in PR for Music Matters Jazz and you all were a focus group, I'd be having a hell of a time making sense of all of this. On the one hand, it appears their product is of high enough quality (i.e., desirable) and their pricing reasonable enough that many are upset they missed the chance to purchase the most recent (and perhaps previous) SRX titles. At the same time, at least some who are willing to pay the set price are nevertheless upset about that pricing. Also, presumably, one of the attractions of the SRX titles is that they are limited, but that becomes a problem for those who miss out on these limited titles. So clearly the quality of product is not at issue because if the product sucked, no one would care about their marketing and sales behavior. Pricing is cause for griping, yet potential buyers (myself included) are climbing over one another in an effort to pay that price. And limited is good to the extent we can get in on it, but unreasonable if we can't. Whew! Does that just about cover it?
I don't find much wrong with the SRX. It's a premium product that is expensive, but not the most expensive on the market. And I get that they didn't know demand when these were printed. So maybe they raise the price to $125 and print more of them. And you're right--some people will pay it. Others will not. It is what it is. Vinyl purchasing is getting more expensive and people are willing to pay $125+ for a record. It's not so much that as it is the greed they have shown by admitting that they are jealous of the flipper prices and wanted to try to get in on it.
They also seem really hesitant to try to get more licenses to print more copies, and I think that's because they won't be able to pray on peoples' FOMO on these albums. They used to be about getting this great music to people in really high quality formats and packaging. Now it's more about how they can milk more and more money out of their customers.
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Russ I
Well-Known Member
You're right, though I'd not seen that logic laid out so clearly. And obviously, if everyone felt and responded the same way, MMJ's model would fail. And just to be clear, I'm not challenging how you feel about this or suggesting there's a flaw in your thinking. In fact, I think the decision to stop purchasing from them is the one thing that makes everything else 'fit.' Thanks for clarifying.
MikeH
Well-Known Member
It's kind of entertaining, albeit a bit insufferable, to see the two different camps on facebook going at each other every time there's a drop (also reminds me why I should just delete facebook by now...). You have the people who are pissed at the company for their price hikes and lack of pressings and bad communication on when they are going up for sale. Then you have the other camp who will buy anything MM puts out regardless of price saying "stop complaining about it".
The Speak No Evil SRX is the first thing I have bought from them directly. And will likely be the last, although I'll never say never hah. I do have a bunch of MM but have bought them from my local at regular prices, or won for under $50 on ebay.
Russ I
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I agree, and they certainly are pushing the limits of "what the market can bear." I feel the same way about what I see happening with all the variants, stuff that comes from record clubs, signed records and the like, all of which seem to have little purpose other than to justify high prices, and that's without any promise of quality!
MikeH
Well-Known Member
I understand prices in manufacturing have likely gone up, especially with so many more companies pressing vinyl without a ton of new pressing plants opening. Everybody wants a piece of the pie with the vinyl boom. And I've personally witnessed how much prices have gone up. 10 years ago or so, buying a single LP new for $25+ was absurd to me. Now it's the norm. I just think MM is taking it further than any other company and then gets mad and deletes stuff on social media when people call them out about it.
dhodo
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I didn't mean for that to come off as strongly as it probably did and I would like to make it clear that I'm certainly not judging anyone who does decide that the new prices are worth it to them.
It really is a little more complicated I think. It is still true that they handled it about the worst way possible, especially when they pulled distribution supposedly to keep retailers from inflating prices, then a few weeks latter, deleted that from their posted reasoning and inflated them themselves.
I wonder if they were frustrated that their titles didn't sell out very quickly at all at the original prices. I think they may even have been surprised that it seemed like titles were selling faster once they jacked up prices. And when they did their colored variants, they waited until the standard variants were sold out and then those sold quickly too, even if I saw quite a few upset people say they only bought those variants because they were under the impression that the standard ones would never be repressed. Anyway, I think they were pleasantly surprised by all of that and after sitting on their stock for a few years and watching resale prices climb and climb, and created this new strategy, that seems to be working better for them than anything before.
I think if you asked them, they probably would say that this is the best they've ever done and they wished they had done it this way from the beginning. Who knows, but there were rumors that they were having trouble making a significant profit back when things started changing and that they were about to hang it up.
But I think that is incorrect. I think it is a pleasant coincidence for them that vinyl has reached this point of popularity right along with them creating that new release/pricing structure and if they had tried to do that 10 years ago it would have flopped.
Obviously that part is speculation and I could be way off. I do really hope that Blue Note takes these big titles back over though, if only for the sake of more people being able to get these who can't afford $75+ for a great reissue.
Selaws
Well-Known Member
It feels like this happens with most releases nowadays, it's pretty toxic a lot of the time as well. I understand when people get really frustrated and angry with a company that messes them around, but its when they no longer even buy from them but continue to complain on that company's forum/page/social-media page that vexes me. I understand they might not have a good experience with a company, but those that stay clearly stuff find it beneficial so why try to muddy that by smack-talking it.
As a caveat, I know this happens on this forum's various threads and I am not directing this at anyone specifically. I haven't seen it happen on this page though, its mainly the various 'Vinyl Club' pages. Just pointing out that it baffles me.
dhodo
Well-Known Member
Yeah, that reminds me of being on the Hoffman forum back when they pulled distribution. Some of us were upset and outraged about it and a bunch of the old guys on there just came on every time and said we were all idiots for not being subscribed to the entire 45 and 33 series since 2007, like them, and that we deserved it.
dhodo
Well-Known Member
Ha, thanks for the disclaimer. Fwiw, I am aware that I shouldn't wine about it so much and I try to minimize it, but sometimes I just can't help it. I tried to make it clear this time that the only reason it bugs me is that I did love them at one point and hate that it seems their motives shifted from the music to money (from my perspective). But yeah, I should give it a rest.
To add something more positive, I really hope these Verve titles are similar in quality to the latest Blue Note reissues and that they go a long way with the series and that it means we will see these kinds of affordable top quality jazz reissues from even more labels, where possible.
MikeH
Well-Known Member
Yea--I hear ya and I am guilty of some of that, on here at least. I think part of it is that MM's product is great and it really is a shame you can only buy from them (or buy them used/pay flipper prices). Luckily for us, the Tone Poets exist, but the titles aren't the same. I sort of hope BN takes back the rights to those classic albums and can press them themselves one day.
MikeH
Well-Known Member
I'm very excited to see how those turn out. I should have gotten them from the Target sale, but I had already spent a lot of money and I figure those will be widely released enough to buy later, even if it's for a little bit more. TP and BN80 might have opened a door to more great jazz reissues that don't cost crazy amounts of money. I'm glad BN adjusted their model after the BN75 series when they realized that they couldn't make great pressings for that cheap. But I love how that series did get a lot more people into jazz by having a low cost option to learn about classic titles.
Russ I
Well-Known Member
This makes a lot of sense! One plus in all of this is that we all can agree the Tone Poet and BN80 titles offer superb pressings at very reasonable prices, especially since they are available at retail outlets that tend to discount and/or offer sales on them. One way I've justified buying so many of these titles is by thinking there could come a day when a similar scenario unfolds (though this seems unlikely) and new (or even older) titles under the TP series reach unreasonable prices. Cheers!
Selaws
Well-Known Member
Didnt mean any offence (just in case I caused some). My gripe isn't really with this kind of discussion going on now, as you both are clearly chatting from a viewpoint of enjoying the series (whether it be now or an earlier time) and discussing what could be better etc (which is great when someone like me comes along having never bought from them and therefore don't know much about the situation). My gripe is those people that you just know went on the forum/page/social-media page to shit on whatever the release was without ever really being interested in it.
I guess the reason I bring it up is that I saw it happen earlier on a FB page. Someone was showing off their 'Donald Byrd – Byrd Jazz' artisan series record from Sams Records. I ordered from Sams for the first time the other day and I'm really excited so decided to read the comments. The guy that posted wrote a beautiful write-up about how great of a release it was, how the pressing is superb, the hand-printed cover was amazing, and how happy he was to finally have a copy as the original is mega money. This other guy responds by berating him for spending 100Euro on the record, saying Sams should be ashamed of themselves for selling at that price, and how he would just use the money to buy an original pressing of something else. It was totally uncalled for and the guy who bought the record was clearly loving it yet some troll decides to try and muddy that. I'm ranting now but it just really annoyed me as there was no need for it, the troll clearly had no intention of ever buying it anyway.
MikeH
Well-Known Member
Oh no offense taken at all. I get what ya mean. That kind of stuff you talked about with the Sam Records album bothers me. I don't knock people for buying things no matter the price point. If I had a lot of money, I'd buy a lot of that stuff. I'm also very jealous of all who got that Sam Records pressing. It really did look beautiful and you can tell how much goes into making that album. And I think the Sam Records guy (for some reason I think his name is Fred?) is doing things the right way, personally. It's cool that he is making a series like the Byrd Jazz pressing for those who want it while also having regular priced items for others to enjoy. It seems that the Byrd Jazz one was successful fo I hope he continues the series and hopefully I can get the next one or find Byrd Jazz for a reasonable price one of these days!