The N&G Top 500 Albums of All Time!!!

Woob_woob said:
I dont think its a trend in popular opinion to now think Clapton is a racist, Ive known about it since I was a teenager. Yes Bridgers brings new light to it with her tweets and interview and probably informs new people about it but I highly doubt many people are forming their opinions based off of a Bridgers sound bite. Also in her interview on the subject she mostly advocates for seperating art from artist while being aware that artists can be bad humans too.
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Sorry, I should have clarified.
Not about shining the light on his racism, to be honest I didn’t know about that incident until she said something and I researched it... so more power to her on that front! Expose all the racists!
More about her saying his music sucks and people jumping on the train.
 
Woob_woob said:
I dont think its a trend in popular opinion to now think Clapton is a racist, Ive known about it since I was a teenager. Yes Bridgers brings new light to it with her tweets and interview and probably informs new people about it but I highly doubt many people are forming their opinions based off of a Bridgers sound bite. Also in her interview on the subject she mostly advocates for seperating art from artist while being aware that artists can be bad humans too.
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I try to avoid the politics on these boards...but I'm in a quandary about how to feel about Bridger's comments.
Let me explain.

I love Punisher..it might end up being my favorite Album of 2020.
I hate Racists, misogynists, facists, [insert other -Ist here], et al.
I'm on the verge of loathing cancel-culture even though I understand how we got here, but can say that I do loathe those who wield/appear to wield it in an effort to gain a personal advantage rather than educate (are these cancel-culture-ists???).

Its shit like the comments in the Bridger's interview that has my logical side asking...should I be lumping in cancel-culturalists with the Westboro Baptist Church and David Duke?

Here's the quote:
“I have such an Eric Clapton rant, because I think it’s just extremely mediocre music, but also he’s a famous racist.”

I mean...yes, I agree, Clapton's music is mediocre.
And Yes, I agree Clapton said some racist shit and....fuck that and all racists and their racists shit.
And yes, those are BOTH reasons you might dislike for Clapton.

But that is not how I read this as going down.

What I hear is: "I have an opinon on Eric Clapton that his art is extremely mediocre and I expressed that in a poetic way in my song...but just in case you disagree with my opinon, let me also tell you he's a racist...so you are wrong and anything you might say to defend Tears in Heaven as a piece of art is really you defending a racist..so go ahead...defend the racist and lets see what happens in 2020."

And maybe I'm wrong in my interpretation.

But if she had said the 1st half of the quote and left out the reference to his racist bullshit, then we'd all raise an eyebrow or at least go "HUH??!?" when AFTER some backlash on the issue her only response was to say "My response to all this backlash is that Eric Clapton famously said some racist shit before...so that makes his music mediocre."

Instead, she tacked on the reference to Clapton's racist bullshit not because it's relevant whether Tears in Heaven is a masterpiece of music or just a piece of unplugged garbage.
Rather, she appears to have wielded his racism to protect herself from criticism for an opinion she holds and what she said about the quality of his art.

Thats not racist what she did...but you know what if thats what she is doing...fuck that shit too.
 
Tys1 said:
Sorry, I should have clarified.
Not about shining the light on his racism, to be honest I didn’t know about that incident until she said something and I researched it... so more power to her on that front! Expose all the racists!
More about her saying his music sucks and people jumping on the train.
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Has there not always been a fairly sizeable train of thought that his music was technically proficient but boring as hell?
 
Joe Mac said:
Has there not always been a fairly sizeable train of thought that his music was technically proficient but boring as hell?
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Maybe? I mean, probably. There’s a large group of individuals who think every major artist in a genre are boring, or they suck, or whatever other describer you want to use is. My issue arises in the bandwagon of people somehow coming out the woodwork to denounce his musical ability.

The sports analogy is a good one. You were never a Dodgers fan but now that you’re living in LA and they’re doing well and headed to the World Series you’re gonna come say how you’ve always been a big dodgers fan, yeah... get outta here, you were just wearing a Nationals jersey 6 months ago! Same thing here, people trashing just because the hype train is rolling.
 
Tys1 said:
Maybe? I mean, probably. There’s a large group of individuals who think every major artist in a genre are boring, or they suck, or whatever other describer you want to use is. My issue arises in the bandwagon of people somehow coming out the woodwork to denounce his musical ability.

The sports analogy is a good one. You were never a Dodgers fan but now that you’re living in LA and they’re doing well and headed to the World Series you’re gonna come say how you’ve always been a big dodgers fan, yeah... get outta here.
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Oh mean I’d never say he can’t play the guitar like a mofo, that’s clear and people love cream. I just find that, for me, he is a bit like a lot of extremely proficient players in that he’s not a great songwriter. I find a lot of it meandering and one paced and it bores me tbh.
 
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Joe Mac said:
Oh mean I’d never say he can’t play the guitar like a mofi, that’s clear and people love cream. I just find that, for me, he is a bit like a lot of extremely proficient players in that he’s not a great songwriter. I find a lot of it meandering and one paced and it bores me tbh.
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Fair. And I respect that we have different opinions. And I understand that lots have probably shared your view. I’m not talking about that, I’m referring to the tsunami of “where the hell did all these dodger fans (Clapton haters) come from, you couldn’t catch a sniff of a dodgers jersey 6 years ago!”
 
To add balance Eric Clapton was off his tits in the 70s on booze and heroin and expressed political views in an onstage pissed up rant that a good chunk of U.K. voters shared.
He’s done a huge amount of charitable work to support recovering addicts over the last 20 years ..and karma paid him back far worse than any disapproval could muster with the death of his son.

Elvis Costello said terrible things in 70’s interviews too..far worse than anything Morrissey has said ...let’s burn his albums

Bowie gave Nazi salutes whilst similarly off his nuts ..do we cast him into the void too ...

Jimmy Page followed the works of Alister Crowley , a most unpleasant character ..should we expunge Zeppelin out ... lots of underage girls in his closets ...how bout the Stones , Elvis (Priscilla was groomed from 14)

And so on ...history can not be erased , it should be learnt from and educate future generations...some great TV doing just that at the moment (Lovecraft Country and Watchmen) entertaining and enlightening
 
Gavaxeman said:
To add balance Eric Clapton was off his tits in the 70s on booze and heroin and expressed political views in an onstage pissed up rant that a good chunk of U.K. voters shared.
He’s done a huge amount of charitable work to support recovering addicts over the last 20 years ..and karma paid him back far worse than any disapproval could muster with the death of his son.

Elvis Costello said terrible things in 70’s interviews too..far worse than anything Morrissey has said ...let’s burn his albums

Bowie gave Nazi salutes whilst similarly off his nuts ..do we cast him into the void too ...

Jimmy Page followed the works of Alister Crowley , a most unpleasant character ..should we expunge Zeppelin out ... lots of underage girls in his closets ...how bout the Stones , Elvis (Priscilla was groomed from 14)

And so on ...history can not be erased , it should be learnt from and educate future generations...some great TV doing just that at the moment (Lovecraft Country and Watchmen) entertaining and enlightening
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ok let’s play the devils advocate and go the other way around.

Junkie who has made the worst racist rant imaginable and who has also admitted to marital rape?

Coke head in the town does a Nazi salute acting the bollocks to provoke?

Drunken fool in the bar says outrageous racist things to try start a fight?

The town grump/your racist old uncle keeps droning on about Muslims and immigrants and other nationalities who happen to offend his extremely niche position on a particular thing?

Probably the most provocative. Bloke down the street keeps a 14 year old in his house and doesn’t let her go out because “he might get in trouble and their relationship is special”.

None of these people make music you like. How are you judging them. How much does the quality of what they do for a living make a difference and how likely are you to fete them.

It’s a difficult game and we all tread thinly on the line of falling into hypocrisy but I think we need to be a bit more self aware than your post comes across as being.
 
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Phoebe will be on my list and Clapton won't,but that's purely personal taste as opposed to anything else.

I really never read the quotes as Bridgers cancelling Clapton or anything. And I think the cancel culture fear is severely overblown. It's a very personal decision to decide not to engage an artist or a person due to their behavior or words, take it that way and a lot of the rage on both sides of this go away. It's really no different than how we treat anyone else in our lives in some way
 
waruv said:
Phoebe will be on my list and Clapton won't,but that's purely personal taste as opposed to anything else.

I really never read the quotes as Bridgers cancelling Clapton or anything. And I think the cancel culture fear is severely overblown. It's a very personal decision to decide not to engage an artist or a person due to their behavior or words, take it that way and a lot of the rage on both sides of this go away. It's really no different than how we treat anyone else in our lives in some way
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I completely agree. I think we have to understand when people who make music do shitty things that they are every bit as shitty as anyone else in our lives doing them. More so because they have a public voice.

If you chose to still engage with their music that is your choice and it’s a deeply personal decision but you have to do so knowing what they’ve done and not minimising it. If someone else says “sorry this behaviour means I’m not going to give them a go” you also have to accept that as a valid decision and not cry cancel culture because you’ve made a different one.
 
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The Commish said:
I try to avoid the politics on these boards...but I'm in a quandary about how to feel about Bridger's comments.
Let me explain.

I love Punisher..it might end up being my favorite Album of 2020.
I hate Racists, misogynists, facists, [insert other -Ist here], et al.
I'm on the verge of loathing cancel-culture even though I understand how we got here, but can say that I do loathe those who wield/appear to wield it in an effort to gain a personal advantage rather than educate (are these cancel-culture-ists???).

Its shit like the comments in the Bridger's interview that has my logical side asking...should I be lumping in cancel-culturalists with the Westboro Baptist Church and David Duke?

Here's the quote:
“I have such an Eric Clapton rant, because I think it’s just extremely mediocre music, but also he’s a famous racist.”

I mean...yes, I agree, Clapton's music is mediocre.
And Yes, I agree Clapton said some racist shit and....fuck that and all racists and their racists shit.
And yes, those are BOTH reasons you might dislike for Clapton.

But that is not how I read this as going down.

What I hear is: "I have an opinon on Eric Clapton that his art is extremely mediocre and I expressed that in a poetic way in my song...but just in case you disagree with my opinon, let me also tell you he's a racist...so you are wrong and anything you might say to defend Tears in Heaven as a piece of art is really you defending a racist..so go ahead...defend the racist and lets see what happens in 2020."

And maybe I'm wrong in my interpretation.

But if she had said the 1st half of the quote and left out the reference to his racist bullshit, then we'd all raise an eyebrow or at least go "HUH??!?" when AFTER some backlash on the issue her only response was to say "My response to all this backlash is that Eric Clapton famously said some racist shit before...so that makes his music mediocre."

Instead, she tacked on the reference to Clapton's racist bullshit not because it's relevant whether Tears in Heaven is a masterpiece of music or just a piece of unplugged garbage.
Rather, she appears to have wielded his racism to protect herself from criticism for an opinion she holds and what she said about the quality of his art.

Thats not racist what she did...but you know what if thats what she is doing...fuck that shit too.
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I dunno my interpretation of the whole thing is that its easier to shit on people that you don't like. Personally I think Clapton makes boring music so its easier to throw in "and hes a racist" because a) he is and b) I dont like his music to begin with so fuck him. I dont see the "and he's racist" bit as a shield because I dont feel like Clapton is boring is an opinion that needs a shield. That's a good opinion imo. His music isn't mediocre because he's racist, its just fucking bland. Now if she was like Clapton is bad at guitar and he racist then I would agree with you.

But I also think "cancel culture" is more of a boogieman term than anything that is actually real.
 
Woob_woob said:
I mean fuck both of them as people(and I'd gladly rate the racist as a better person than the child molester), but Thriller is at least A level pop music.
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right...well, I don't really care for either...but I was just trying to make a snarkier version of the post you made above...it's a lot easier to "cancel" the things and people you already don't rate.
 
cbl said:
right...well, I don't really care for either...but I was just trying to make a snarkier version of the post you made above...it's a lot easier to "cancel" the things and people you already don't rate.
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It is but it’s much easier again to excuse or ignore the things that people whose art you love have done. Or even worse to point and go well it’s not so bad look at what x y and z did. Self awareness I think is key, whatever side you fall down on with any given artist.
 
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Woob_woob said:
I dunno my interpretation of the whole thing is that its easier to shit on people that you don't like. Personally I think Clapton makes boring music so its easier to throw in "and hes a racist" because a) he is and b) I dont like his music to begin with so fuck him. I dont see the "and he's racist" bit as a shield because I dont feel like Clapton is boring is an opinion that needs a shield. That's a good opinion imo. His music isn't mediocre because he's racist, its just fucking bland. Now if she was like Clapton is bad at guitar and he racist then I would agree with you.

But I also think "cancel culture" is more of a boogieman term than anything that is actually real.
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I guess I read into it as young emerging artist knowingly taking shots at an established and, to some, legendary artist, thus the conscious decision to preemptively shield herself.

Like I said in the post - I could be totally wrong. It would not be the first time. But that was my thought process as I reacted to the news.

Anyway...I’m still trying to correctly order the list that has become an amalgam of the 50 most important albums to me personally, while at the same time acknowledging the importance of the albums/artists that opened my tastes up to being ready to fall in love with those personally important albums. Shouldn’t those historically relevant touchstones that granted me access to more obscure/personal choices necessarily be in my Top 50. I mean can my Top 50 really be my Top 50 without acknowledging them?
 
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