Totally Tubular: The Tube Thread

Slimwhit33 said:
I think for my own education, I'm going to replace them one type at a time and get an idea what does what. Best route? Or should I throw them all in at once and see what changes overall first and then maybe go back and try other combos? Any advice on what you'd do? Any recommendations as to which to try switching first if doing 1 by 1 is the best idea?

Any advice would be appreciated.
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To be honest, there's no right or wrong way. What I did was write down all the tubes I had and created a matrix. For each combo I wrote down notes. I want to say it took a few weeks, leaving different combos in for a few days. I started with rectifiers first, nothing scientific just where I decided to start. After settling on certain tubes and thinking I had it right where I wanted things, I rolled different output tubes last week on a whim and WTF how did I miss this! It just never ends! I think it just takes time and patience (not my strong suit) to get to know certain characteristics of the amp and which tube that can maximize areas that are important to you.

As for the grain at higher volumes, my setup is dead quiet until maybe the last 10% of the volume knob. Rarely do I listen at that level. Before the ZP3 I was using a Jolida JD9 and the noise started just past 1/2 way on the volume. Steve has said and I'm paraphrasing - any issues won't be the amp, but the amp will expose any weakness before it. That bold statement can be interpreted many different ways, however my experience is there is some truth to it. I found changing power cables, interconnects and speaker cable all had an effect and not always a positive effect. You've got great equipment in front of the Torii Jr, perhaps time spent listening will expose what may be causing the grain.
 
Thanks for the detailed response. I’m looking forward to the experience. I may start with the rectifiers as well as it seems like they can effect the other tubes. I like your idea about mapping it out and taking notes.
 
Slimwhit33 said:
To continue from the Klipsch thread..

@HayesWeighsIn

My understanding from the original owner is that he didn't roll the tubes at all, so I assume these are at least mostly original (in this pic I had already replaced the OA3's with some NOS Sylvanias.. which I removed and put the originals back in because the Sylvanias hummed with the Heresy's).

It currently has the Valve Art 274B, Tung Sol EL34's, Amperex Gold Pin 6922 (red tipped and I understand these are picked by Steve himself so likely original and apparently not cheap). Not sure what the OA3's are to be honest as there are no markings on them that I can see.

To me, all sounds as it should at this point other than a slight "graininess" at higher volumes.. but I have no reference point to be honest.

I have a full compliment of tubes arriving Monday.. I am trying Mullard EL34's (Cryo) and Gold Lion E88C/6922 (Cryo, Kevins stash) from Upscale, a NOS Raytheon 5u4G, and a pair of NOS RCA/GE OA3's.

I think for my own education, I'm going to replace them one type at a time and get an idea what does what. Best route? Or should I throw them all in at once and see what changes overall first and then maybe go back and try other combos? Any advice on what you'd do? Any recommendations as to which to try switching first if doing 1 by 1 is the best idea?

Any advice would be appreciated.View attachment 163178
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From what I can gather the original OA3 were soviet military tubes and so generally don’t have markings on them. They’re a type of military tube that I’ve never seen anyone figure out or state what factory made them.
 
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Joe Mac said:
From what I can gather the original OA3 were soviet military tubes and so generally don’t have markings on them. They’re a type of military tube that I’ve never seen anyone figure out or state what factory made them.
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I was wondering why they had nothing on them. These are the ones I ordered… CD1EA480-D00A-468F-8D79-1E7F2E011BD3.jpeg
 
Slimwhit33 said:
I was wondering why they had nothing on them. These are the ones I ordered… View attachment 163258
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I was half considering ordering a deccware phono stage at one point, but probably likely won’t now, so I did a bit of research on picking up tubes to roll into it and could only find one place in Europe selling them and they just had a stock of old USSR marked NOS. I didn’t realise GE had made them though, must have been an attempt to replicate the soviet tube somewhere along the line.
 
Joe Mac said:
I was half considering ordering a deccware phono stage at one point, but probably likely won’t now, so I did a bit of research on picking up tubes to roll into it and could only find one place in Europe selling them and they just had a stock of old USSR marked NOS. I didn’t realise GE had made them though, must have been an attempt to replicate the soviet tube somewhere along the line.
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They definitely seem harder to find than the other varieties in the Torii Jr..
 
I don’t think I even realized both the OA3 I own have clear glass. One is a RCA the other a Sylvania. All the tube letter/combos make my spin at times. In any case, I believe a few variants work for the OA3, I think an OC3 works, tighter bass but less too end.

Joe Mac, what pre did you end up going for? I’ve read the Hagerman pre design is what Steve uses in the ZP3. I was considering a Hagerman.
 
scorpio333 said:
I don’t think I even realized both the OA3 I own have clear glass. One is a RCA the other a Sylvania. All the tube letter/combos make my spin at times. In any case, I believe a few variants work for the OA3, I think an OC3 works, tighter bass but less too end.

Joe Mac, what pre did you end up going for? I’ve read the Hagerman pre design is what Steve uses in the ZP3. I was considering a Hagerman.
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It’s more that I ended up sticking with the pre that I had for now and investing on my digital set up so that I’d listen to more of the CDs I already own and slow down my vinyl purchases. I have a Musical Fidelty MX-VYNL.
 
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scorpio333 said:
To be honest, there's no right or wrong way. What I did was write down all the tubes I had and created a matrix. For each combo I wrote down notes. I want to say it took a few weeks, leaving different combos in for a few days. I started with rectifiers first, nothing scientific just where I decided to start. After settling on certain tubes and thinking I had it right where I wanted things, I rolled different output tubes last week on a whim and WTF how did I miss this! It just never ends! I think it just takes time and patience (not my strong suit) to get to know certain characteristics of the amp and which tube that can maximize areas that are important to you.

As for the grain at higher volumes, my setup is dead quiet until maybe the last 10% of the volume knob. Rarely do I listen at that level. Before the ZP3 I was using a Jolida JD9 and the noise started just past 1/2 way on the volume. Steve has said and I'm paraphrasing - any issues won't be the amp, but the amp will expose any weakness before it. That bold statement can be interpreted many different ways, however my experience is there is some truth to it. I found changing power cables, interconnects and speaker cable all had an effect and not always a positive effect. You've got great equipment in front of the Torii Jr, perhaps time spent listening will expose what may be causing the grain.
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@Slimwhit33 don’t think I have much to add here, @scorpio333 nailed it! In my experience, power tubes will give you the biggest tonal shift, but they all make a difference. I love this approach. And the problem (fun) is, it’s symbiotic, so the same preamp tube may give you something different with say a different power tube. Hit the nail on the head - it never ends!

With my Zen Triode, I have only used the supplied tubes, because to my ear they sound spectacular. I’ve become more of a set and forget guy as time rolls on, as well.

Re: the graininess, I occasionally will here just a tinge of harmonic excitement that could be considered distortion in the upper mids on a vocal or acoustic guitar, but it’s rare, and I suspect it’s probably the accentuation of those frequencies with a horn tweeter. It’s all part of the experience of running a tube amp, for me.
 
HayesWeighsIn said:
@Slimwhit33 don’t think I have much to add here, @scorpio333 nailed it! In my experience, power tubes will give you the biggest tonal shift, but they all make a difference. I love this approach. And the problem (fun) is, it’s symbiotic, so the same preamp tube may give you something different with say a different power tube. Hit the nail on the head - it never ends!

With my Zen Triode, I have only used the supplied tubes, because to my ear they sound spectacular. I’ve become more of a set and forget guy as time rolls on, as well.

Re: the graininess, I occasionally will here just a tinge of harmonic excitement that could be considered distortion in the upper mids on a vocal or acoustic guitar, but it’s rare, and I suspect it’s probably the accentuation of those frequencies with a horn tweeter. It’s all part of the experience of running a tube amp, for me.
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Thanks I appreciate that.. I'll report back in the coming weeks to document the ride. If I had bought this new, I would have certainly done the same as you and run with the stock tubes.. this unit was built in 2016 and seems to have the original tube compliment, so I just want to be sure that there isn't stuff missing that shouldn't be.

As for the graininess, I think I'm just being super sensitive and looking for something..
 
Received the EL34’s and 6922’s today.

Because I don’t know how old the tubes that came with the Torii Jr are, I decided to change the whole lot of them and start fresh.

It’s my first time changing tubes on an amp that needed to be biased, but zero issues. Decware recommends .825 on the meter, which the old tubes were set to when I brought it home.

With the new Mullards installed, the bias was initially at around 1100. Turned it down to 825 and that was that.

Does the fact that I needed to throttle down the bias with the new tubes indicate that the old tubes were older?

Time for the tube and speaker break in to begin.4D5D0686-DBDF-4F44-AB02-29DC291C288A.jpeg
 
Not sure if the bias adjustment is indicative of older or worn out tubes. My SE84 is self biasing. I have a Jolida 1102 with bias adjustment screws, but no meters. Just turn them until a led lights up. Anytime I changed tubes on that I had to adjust the bias. So my gut tells me your older tubes may be ok, they just have a slight difference to where they need dialed in.

Break in can be a pain, I want to listen NOW and have a hard time not touching anything for xx hours.
 
scorpio333 said:
Not sure if the bias adjustment is indicative of older or worn out tubes. My SE84 is self biasing. I have a Jolida 1102 with bias adjustment screws, but no meters. Just turn them until a led lights up. Anytime I changed tubes on that I had to adjust the bias. So my gut tells me your older tubes may be ok, they just have a slight difference to where they need dialed in.

Break in can be a pain, I want to listen NOW and have a hard time not touching anything for xx hours.
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Thanks for the explanation.. ya I wasn't sure if one had anything to do with another and it seems like there really isn't a relation. I was pleasantly surprised at how easy biasing the amp was..
 
Different tubes, even of the same make, will have different native biasing points due to manufacturing tolerances. You can't really know whether they are worn from a single data point, only by the overall drift over time. Like, there's a healthy starting range, but no two tubes will be exactly the same.

edit: at least, this is my recollection. I could be making it up. But I believe when you pay extra for 'matched tubes' it is because the seller is checking the bias on all of them and providing you with tubes that are closely aligned in bias point, so that their behavior should be similar over time.
 
scorpio333 said:
Break in can be a pain, I want to listen NOW and have a hard time not touching anything for xx hours.
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I... clearly have an issue letting things be as well.. lol.

Unless a tube fails or gets noisy.. I won't touch them for at least 6 months, more likely a year or more.
 
Slimwhit33 said:
Received the EL34’s and 6922’s today.

Because I don’t know how old the tubes that came with the Torii Jr are, I decided to change the whole lot of them and start fresh.

It’s my first time changing tubes on an amp that needed to be biased, but zero issues. Decware recommends .825 on the meter, which the old tubes were set to when I brought it home.

With the new Mullards installed, the bias was initially at around 1100. Turned it down to 825 and that was that.

Does the fact that I needed to throttle down the bias with the new tubes indicate that the old tubes were older?

Time for the tube and speaker break in to begin.View attachment 163751
Click to expand...
When changing output tubes, best practice is to turn the amp off, turn the bias pots all the way down. Change tubes. Turn amp on with no input signal. Let it settle 10 minutes. Adjust the bias. Recheck after playing music for an hour and adjust as necessary, then recheck monthly afterwards.

You may get a bit of drift due to voltage supply variation from the wall. No biggie. But if one tube is way out, that tube is on the way out. Don’t run questionable tubes- depending on the design of the amplifier, a bad tube may cause collateral damage inside the amp when it fully fails.
 
HiFi Guy said:
When changing output tubes, best practice is to turn the amp off, turn the bias pots all the way down. Change tubes. Turn amp on with no input signal. Let it settle 10 minutes. Adjust the bias. Recheck after playing music for an hour and adjust as necessary, then recheck monthly afterwards.

You may get a bit of drift due to voltage supply variation from the wall. No biggie. But if one tube is way out, that tube is on the way out. Don’t run questionable tubes- depending on the design of the amplifier, a bad tube may cause collateral damage inside the amp when it fully fails.
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Thanks for the reply!

The Decware step by step doesn’t mention turning the bias down first, but I did see it in other places and will likely do that next time. All the other steps were followed. Going to check once more tonight but so far still on 825.

All the new and old power tubes are fine. I was questioning if it was unusual for the bias to need to be turned down when installing new tubes and if that gave any indication to how old the prior tubes were. Seems like no correlation however.
 
I could be wrong, so don’t take my word on it. From what I’ve read, the only damage on a Decware amp is when a rectifier tube goes, it will blow the fuse on the power outlet. Good to know if you’re into the after market fuses.

However, if a tube is questionable and you try it you may end up questioning the temptation. I’ve done it in the past, but not in an amp that was of significant value.
 
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