Vinyl Me Please Essentials

dhodo said:
Genuinely curious, why do you say no doubt the AP would be superior when they also are known to use KG and RTI in the past? Are you saying QRP is always better than RTI or do you mean the jacket or as I alluded to above, am I missing something?
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AP has much better quality control than Rhino, and their pressings tend to be a lot better and more consistent. Rhino is more about mass production than audiophile precision
 
keylime_5 said:
AP has much better quality control than Rhino, and their pressings tend to be a lot better and more consistent. Rhino is more about mass production than audiophile precision
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They often, forgive me if I’m wrong, have dedicated masters done for themselves, even if the engineer is the same, and often press at 45, and so have mastered for that. MoFi as far as I’m aware still master pretty much everything in house on their gain2 system thingy.
 
keylime_5 said:
AP has much better quality control than Rhino, and their pressings tend to be a lot better and more consistent. Rhino is more about mass production than audiophile precision
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You're saying that RTI allows more defects to slip through on Rhino pressings than they do on MM and MoFi pressings and the credit for that is in the label and not the pressing plant?

FWIW, I just got my Rocktober Electric Warrior and it is the flattest and quietest pressing I have had in a long time, more so than many other RTI presses. Not relevant to thisof course, just is in my mind in light of this discussion.
 
dhodo said:
You're saying that RTI allows more defects to slip through on Rhino pressings than they do on MM and MoFi pressings and the credit for that is in the label and not the pressing plant?
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It's the QC of the label not the pressing plants. They do more work on the test pressings and vetting for defects. I know Music Matters Jazz would hand inspect each pressing of the 2020 SRXs which was pretty intense QC but then again they only pressed 500 or less of each of those records.
 
Joe Mac said:
I mean we could list off the amount of times that’s mattered to them. At this stage that’s not their concern it would seem.
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I wouldn't put it totally past them, but they seem to be more about either putting out a color variant or an upgraded, more definitive mastering of an album that is currently in print anymore. Krieg Wunderlich cuts all the mofi stuff these days, and they have excellent equipment and processes they use to to get that pristine audiophile mastering. I'm sure their QC is comparable to AP's too, and both of those labels put out a lot of 45 RPM reissues.
 
keylime_5 said:
It's the QC of the label not the pressing plants. They do more work on the test pressings and vetting for defects. I know Music Matters Jazz would hand inspect each pressing of the 2020 SRXs which was pretty intense QC but then again they only pressed 500 or less of each of those records.
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I have some light noise and warps on my pre SRX MMs and some noise on some MoFis and Rhinos that are perfect along with Rhinos with light noise and warps so I'm still scratching my head here. But, just to be clear, you aren't saying there is a difference in sound, just defects like noise and warps?

I guess it makes MMs new price more reasonable now if they are inspecting every pressing, but that seems extreme.
 
keylime_5 said:
It's the QC of the label not the pressing plants. They do more work on the test pressings and vetting for defects. I know Music Matters Jazz would hand inspect each pressing of the 2020 SRXs which was pretty intense QC but then again they only pressed 500 or less of each of those records.
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This kinda reminds me of the time that someone convinced @NathanRicaud that Columbia 6 eyes meant that it had gone past 3 peoples inspection (so 6 eyes) in QC...
 
dhodo said:
I have some light noise and warps on my pre SRX MMs and some noise on some MoFis and Rhinos that are perfect along with Rhinos with light noise and warps so I'm still scratching my head here. But, just to be clear, you aren't saying there is a difference in sound, just defects like noise and warps?

I guess it makes MMs their new price more reasonable now if they are inspecting every pressing, but that seems extreme.
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I think it's the whole production process not just the pressing but I'm not exactly sure all the ins and outs. Better pressing quality typically equals better sound, as do better source tapes. I'm sure there is some input from the companies too on the mastering. Rhino puts out a quality product to a mass market at a reasonable price, and a lot of times they would cut from the original tapes with guys like Bellman, Grundman or Gray, especially between around 2007 and 2015 (they still do sometimes, but not as much as they used to). There are some Rhino reissues that I would put up against MoFi and AP reissues for sound quality. The T.Rex 2017 Electric Warrior is about as good as it gets, same with those Van Morrison LPs and Forever Changes. Many prefer the Rhino TRex over the new Mofi 45 even.
 
Joe Mac said:
They often, forgive me if I’m wrong, have dedicated masters done for themselves, even if the engineer is the same, and often press at 45, and so have mastered for that. MoFi as far as I’m aware still master pretty much everything in house on their gain2 system thingy.
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Not sure what you mean. Rhinos are dedicated masters unless they are represses of something else, which is not common. Anything with a totally unique deadwax should be a dedicated master. Unless it is 2 different DMMs from the same file maybe.
 
keylime_5 said:
I think it's the whole production process not just the pressing but I'm not exactly sure all the ins and outs. Better pressing quality typically equals better sound, as do better source tapes. I'm sure there is some input from the companies too on the mastering. Rhino puts out a quality product to a mass market at a reasonable price, and a lot of times they would cut from the original tapes with guys like Bellman, Grundman or Gray, especially between around 2007 and 2015 (they still do sometimes, but not as much as they used to). There are some Rhino reissues that I would put up against MoFi and AP reissues for sound quality. The T.Rex 2017 Electric Warrior is about as good as it gets, same with those Van Morrison LPs and Forever Changes. Many prefer the Rhino TRex over the new Mofi 45 even.
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But the pressing plant is the same. Are you saying that the pressing plant offers different levels of quality to different customers? You're saying you think, for instance, Chad Kassem's giving advice to KG that would improve the quality of KG's master?

Yeah, I am only talking about comparing the like to like mastering source and pressing plant (and rpm). I know Rhino has put out crummier stuff as well. Even some big mistakes, like the Waits reissues, but at least they fixed that.

I'll stop questioning this because I'm sure I'm coming off as combative and that is very far from my intent as I'm really just trying to understand why your understanding is true. Not assuming you are wrong, just trying to get on the same page because I want to learn what I don't know.

To me same source + same mastering engineer + same pressing plant should equal extremely similar quality vinyl. I haven't seen an explanation for why that isn't true that makes sense to me.

Honestly I find the accepted truth that vintage copies see a significant difference (outside of noise) between plants, for the same cut fascinating as well. I'm not sure what would case that either. Maybe they each do different plating? Maybe the machines, or state of machines they used? I can imagine differences easier for that, but haven't seen a detailed explanation of that either. All I know is apparently Monarch is best! Wish I was collecting in the 80s and 90s, but today it seems a little cost prohibitive to compare variations on that scale, if at all.
 
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dhodo said:
But the pressing plant is the same. Are you saying that the pressing plant offers different levels of quality to different customers? You're saying you think, for instance, Chad Kassem's giving advice to KG that would improve the quality of KG's master?

Yeah, I am only talking about comparing the like to like mastering source and pressing plant (and rpm). I know Rhino has put out crummier stuff as well. Even some big mistakes, like the Waits reissues, but at least they fixed that.

I'll stop questioning this because I'm sure I'm coming off as combative and that is very far from my inntent as I'm really just trying to understand why your understanding is true. Not assuming you are wrong, just trying to get on the same page because I want to learn what I don't know.

To me same mastering engineer + same pressing plant should equal extremely similar quality vinyl. I haven't seen an explanation for why that isn't true that makes sense to me.
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There are fewer crappy pressings that they let slip by their QC that hit the market because they are more meticulous about test pressings and whatnot. RTI will send them a test pressing and I'm sure they are very particular about them and spend more time/money on that portion of the production process.
 
keylime_5 said:
There are fewer crappy pressings that they let slip by their QC that hit the market because they are more meticulous about test pressings and whatnot. RTI will send them a test pressing and I'm sure they are very particular about them and spend more time/money on that portion of the production process.
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That's why I thought you just meant pressing defects that could cause noise, but I guess you mean they may reject the mastering sound as well and ask for a tweaked cut? That's only surprising to me because I would think the engineers are the experts, but maybe they cut some days with a cold. You don't think Rhino has a resident expert that does a few dedicated listens to the test pressings?

I have worked in manufacturing for most of my career and that is one reason I find this fascinating and want to be able to understand it down to specifics. I haven't seen much extremely detailed discussion of what can go wrong and right in the whole process by people in the industry but would love to. Most discussions I have come across seem high level and quite vague.
 
dhodo said:
That's why I thought you just meant pressing defects that could cause noise, but I guess you mean they may reject the mastering sound as well and ask for a tweaked cut? That's only surprising to me because I would think the engineers are the experts, but maybe they cut some days with a cold. You don't think Rhino has a resident expert that does a few dedicated listens to the test pressings?

I have worked in manufacturing for most of my career and that is one reason I find this fascinating and want to be able to understand it down to specifics. I haven't seen much extremely detailed discussion of what can go wrong and right in the whole process by people in the industry but would love to. Most discussions I have come across seem high level and quite vague.
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No such thing as a "dedicated master" - a master tape is a master tape. There is only one. There is no 'special sauce' master tape redone from the multitracks for AP or any audiophile label - that would be a remix anyways.

It is absolute rubbish that anyone would hand check 1500 or even 500 pressings! No one does that. They come from the pressing plant in sleeves and sealed. No one reopens them, pulls each one out of the sleeve, and reseals them. No one.

Rhino gets test pressings. Everybody does. How many is a matter of how many the label pays for. Take a look at Discogs to see how many TP's are for sale. Tons. They get distributed fairly heavily, internally and externally. People don't listen to TP's for the sound. They listen for pressing defects that generally come either from plating or another physical flaw. A test pressing has nothing to do with the potential for, or presence of pressing defects in the production run. That is completely separate from producing the TP's.

Artists and producers may listen to the TP for sonics. But if they don't accept it, it goes back to the masterting studio - not the pressing plant, who cannot alter the sonics - after all, that is in the lacquer or digital file they were sent.

There are no higher levels of QC at RTI or any other plants. They don't stop the press every few copies to check visually. They do inspect every pressing run by taking out a few random samples and checking them for obvious visual flaws. It's a factory - their QC is standard, as are their prices.

Rhino have done a ton of fabulous all-analog reissues, in fact, more are AAA these days than in the earlier days. And, for a long time Rhino used the disatrous Rainbo - for most of the past decade, they have primarily used RTI. Rhino vinyl has actually increased in quality, and value for money.
 
RHANDMJ said:
No such thing as a "dedicated master" - a master tape is a master tape. There is only one. There is no 'special sauce' master tape redone from the multitracks for AP or any audiophile label - that would be a remix anyways.

It is absolute rubbish that anyone would hand check 1500 or even 500 pressings! No one does that. They come from the pressing plant in sleeves and sealed. No one reopens them, pulls each one out of the sleeve, and reseals them. No one.

Rhino gets test pressings. Everybody does. How many is a matter of how many the label pays for. Take a look at Discogs to see how many TP's are for sale. Tons. They get distributed fairly heavily, internally and externally. People don't listen to TP's for the sound. They listen for pressing defects that generally come either from plating or another physical flaw. A test pressing has nothing to do with the potential for, or presence of pressing defects in the production run. That is completely separate from producing the TP's.

Artists and producers may listen to the TP for sonics. But if they don't accept it, it goes back to the masterting studio - not the pressing plant, who cannot alter the sonics - after all, that is in the lacquer or digital file they were sent.

There are no higher levels of QC at RTI or any other plants. They don't stop the press every few copies to check visually. They do inspect every pressing run by taking out a few random samples and checking them for obvious visual flaws. It's a factory - their QC is standard, as are their prices.

Rhino have done a ton of fabulous all-analog reissues, in fact, more are AAA these days than in the earlier days. And, for a long time Rhino used the disatrous Rainbo - for most of the past decade, they have primarily used RTI. Rhino vinyl has actually increased in quality, and value for money.
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Just to be clear, I wasn't talking about the master tape. I meant a dedicated cut, which many people refer to as mastering or re-mastering as well. That is the only thing I could think that the person I was responding to meant when they said it. Which I guess just means not a repress of an existing cut.
 
dhodo said:
Just to be clear, I wasn't talking about the master tape. I meant a dedicated cut, which many people refer to as mastering or re-mastering as well. That is the only thing I could think that the person I was responding to meant when they said it. Which I guess just means not a repress of an existing cut.
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Yeah, I know you get it. Dedicated cut to me means a cut done expressly for a particular client - AP, Rhino or whoever- that is proprietary to that client. The cut that Grundman does from master tapes for VMP, or AP, or any other label, for example, is the property of that label only.
I guess the distinction is really that the lacquer and plates from that mastering are the property of the client.
BTW I have a couple of TPs here that never went past TP stage. Test pressings are done in a run of 10, plus however more the label wants. But they are not the production run. That is only after the TP is approved. TPs are a check on the lacquer and plating. Labels dont have to order TPs but they all do. If they don't and there is a defect from the lacquer to plating, its on them if the whole production has the same defect. Seems dumb not to spend a hundred bucks on a few TPs vs. the cost of eating an entire pressing run.
 
RHANDMJ said:
Yeah, I know you get it. Dedicated cut to me means a cut done expressly for a particular client - AP, Rhino or whoever- that is proprietary to that client. The cut that Grundman does from master tapes for VMP, or AP, or any other label, for example, is the property of that label only.
I guess the distinction is really that the lacquer and plates from that mastering are the property of the client.
BTW I have a couple of TPs here that never went past TP stage. Test pressings are done in a run of 10, plus however more the label wants. But they are not the production run. That is only after the TP is approved. TPs are a check on the lacquer and plating. Labels dont have to order TPs but they all do. If they don't and there is a defect from the lacquer to plating, its on them if the whole production has the same defect. Seems dumb not to spend a hundred bucks on a few TPs vs. the cost of eating an entire pressing run.
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They're not even always that much. Depending on the plant, ordering additional TPs can be stupid cheap - it's basically free money for the label/band when they sell them to fans
 
If I had a twitter account i would guess Pieces of a Man for January, if not Tapestry. Or maybe Tago Mago, or Histoire de Melodie Nelson
Anything else I would be either pleasantly surprised or disappointed by. There are so many great albums that year, they better not pick a random crappy one.
 
NathanRicaud said:
What were your nine guesses?!? 🤔

Happy to know Joni Mitchell is ruled out!!! 🙏
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In addition to Joni for Essentials, I guessed Mogwai - Happy Songs for Happy People and Portugal. The Man - Satanic Satanist.

For RHH I guessed Curren$y - The Stoned Immaculate, Jneiro Jarel - Three Piece Puzzle, and Rjd2 - Deadringer

For Classics I guessed Shuggie Otis - Inspiration Information, Marvin Gaye - Let's Get It On, and Jaco Pastorius - self-titled


The only one I'm truly bummed out over is The Stoned Immaculate. Great album and copies today go for $100 and up.
 
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