That’s exactly the position being taken with regards to critique of the actions (or lack thereof) taken by the victims. “The men were powerful and the victims didn’t have any choice.” That’s frankly a load of bullshit. It removes any and all agency from the targets of these assholes.
I did not make this argument and neither did anybody on here. People are saying that to say that a person "should" do something in a certain situation implies that it is there fault that they did not react in a way to get out of the situation. You are exaggerating peoples arguments to fit your viewpoint and experiences in life. The reality of humans is some freeze up and some don't and that depends a lot on their experiences in life. Can they learn to change that, of course. but saying things like "should" does not put them on that path.
You can call my position simplistic, but I don’t care. You, me, and every other non-mentally deficient adult are 100% morally responsible and liable for the consequences of our choices. I don’t care if you had a shitty childhood (I did). I don’t care if you were molested (I was). I don’t care if you had substance abuse issues (I did). I don’t care if you are broke and homeless (been there too).
Great, you have come through a difficult journey and you are one of the few that was able to cope with all these traumatic experiences. However, each one of these experiences made it more and more likely that you wouldn't have a successful and fulfilling life.
I don’t give a damn what is wrong with your life, you are 100% responsible for the choices you make and things you do. The sooner folks realize that, the better off their life will be.
What I am saying and what you are saying are not mutually exclusive. I agree with the above statement or I wouldn't be a counselor. However, each traumatic experience make is less and less likely that a individual will make the choices to get healthy.
The biggest thing we can do to fuck up kids and set them on the path to destruction is to tell them the lie that they are a victim of their circumstances. Folks who do that should not only not be allowed around children, they should be strung up like pedos because they’re no less harmful to them.
A universal and constant truth is that life is shitty, but how you deal with that fact is entirely up to you.
This times 1000. I don't think I'd ever be listening to someone like XXXTENTACION unless it was a joke or something, but I'm not going to go hate on anyone that does listen to him.If you’re capable of detaching the actions of an artist from their art and continuing to support them, that’s fine. If you read accusations and subsequent responses and decide it’s no big deal, that’s your prerogative. But you don’t need to blame their victims in the process.
To say that it’s not allowed to critique the actions of one party is to say that they are wholly innocent. It also prevents an honest accounting of what happened. In this case it includes recognizing that different choices could have led to different outcomes or admitting some of the victims, weren’t. None of that excuses creepy, shitty, predatory behavior. Nail the fuckers to the wall for what they’ve done, but don’t pretend that their behavior was an unforeseeable circumstance.Comments in bold
There's a lot to process here and I will state now that I personally disagree with you. Im just going to caveat that everything I am about to say is my own opinion and, of course, you are entitled to your own.To say that it’s not allowed to critique the actions of one party is to say that they are wholly innocent. It also prevents an honest accounting of what happened. In this case it includes recognizing that different choices could have led to different outcomes or admitting some of the victims, weren’t. None of that excuses creepy, shitty, predatory behavior. Nail the fuckers to the wall for what they’ve done, but don’t pretend that their behavior was an unforeseeable circumstance.
To say that someone should have done one thing or another in a certain situation isn’t about assigning blame. It’s about analyzing what happened, and determining how to reach a different outcome. Those are valuable lessons for the victimized party in the future, and also for anyone else who wishes to prepare themselves for what to do if faced with a similar situation. Folks freeze up because they are not adequately prepared for the circumstances they find themselves in. People don’t rise to the occasion, they default to their level of ingrained training.
You are right in that every one of those experiences did make it less likely that I would choose a healthy path for my life. For many years they did. In fact I’d say that some of the harmful behaviors I still engage in could likely be traced to those traumas. Doesn’t change the fact that I am wholly responsible for my actions or excuse me from the negative consequences of them. That understanding is what helped me choose a healthier path and still helps me not return to the more self destructive instincts.
Victimhood is a choice. One chooses to be defined by the terrible things that happened to them, or they choose better paths. It’s not easy to choose the latter. It’s a hard row to hoe and is likely to be a perpetually ongoing process. That makes it no less of a choice.
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My approach to analyzing these stories is through the eyes of a father. My job as a father is to prepare my children for the world that exists, not the one I wish existed for them. That means for my daughter I have to prepare her to recognize dangerous situations like this so that she can avoid them. For my sons it’s lessons of how to treat other people (i. e. don’t think you have an entitlement to the bodies of others). Of course if you want to get technical about it, those lessons apply equally to all of them, just manifested in slightly different ways.
There's a lot to process here and I will state now that I personally disagree with you. Im just going to caveat that everything I am about to say is my own opinion and, of course, you are entitled to your own.
Your comment of 'don’t pretend that their behavior was an unforeseeable circumstances' is quite a depressing way of viewing the world. You are literally saying that we should treat people as being guilty of something prior to it happening. Louis CK has been mentioned a few times as an example, are you saying that the women that went to his dressing room should have assumed he was going to want to perform a sexual act from them? If a colleague invited me into their office I wouldn't deny it on the off chance they were going to perform an unwanted sexual act.
'Victimhood is a choice.' is something I COMPLETELY disagree with im afraid. A statement like that completely transfers the blame to the victim. Its a potentially harmful comment, and one that is likely to be the cause of people not wanting to come forward when abusers have physically or mentally hurt them.
I guess my issue with the ‘victimhood is a choice’ comment is that it implies the victim is in complete control of their emotions and how they feel about the incident which caused them to be a victim.It may be a depressing way to view the world, but it is also an accurate one. I am not saying you should treat people as guilty of something that that haven’t done, I am saying that you should be prepared to encounter bad people who do bad things. I don’t know someone is a shitty person until they do something shitty, so I don’t treat them as a shitty person until then either. At the same time, I don’t run around pretending shitty people don’t exist or that I won’t encounter them. You can understand the world that is and act accordingly, or you can believe the world to be something it isn’t. One is a much better path to a happier life than the other.
Did you stop reading after the word “choice”? The entire paragraph breaks down what I mean by that and it in no way places transfers the blame for a traumatic situation to the person who was on the receiving end. It is all about how someone deals with that trauma after the fact. One can choose to take on the identity of a victim, or one can choose to put in the work (by getting the necessary help) to move past the trauma. The second path is the harder one, no doubt. But it is still a choice.
Louis CK has been mentioned a few times as an example, are you saying that the women that went to his dressing room should have assumed he was going to want to perform a sexual act from them? If a colleague invited me into their office I wouldn't deny it on the off chance they were going to perform an unwanted sexual act.
But it is something you can fix*. Probably not easily, and likely not on your own. Ultimately though, it isn’t going to be dealt with until you make the decision to do so.I guess my issue with the ‘victimhood is a choice’ comment is that it implies the victim is in complete control of their emotions and how they feel about the incident which caused them to be a victim.
If someone bumps into me I can easily shake it off, I’m still the victim in that situation but my emotions towards it is manageable. In extreme situations it wouldn’t be as easy to just dismiss the event and move past it, however much you may want to. It’s in those situations where I would find the ‘victimhood is a choice’ comment to be harmful, as it’s not something I can fix.
But it is something you can fix*. Probably not easily, and likely not on your own. Ultimately though, it isn’t going to be dealt with until you make the decision to do so.
*I don’t really like the word “fix” here in this context, as trauma isn’t something broken that can be reassembled just as it was before. But to build off that use of the term, trauma is something that while it may leave a scar can either be point of structural weakness or be a point that is stronger than what was there before and strengthens the entire being. It all depends on how one goes about mending it.
I think we all can agree that trauma is something that we can heal from. Maybe that is a better way to express this?
I get the feeling that we are all expressing the same thing, but in different ways. You use choice as your word for it, another uses fix. I know it seems a little nit picky about the language used when discussing these topics, but words do affect people differently and have generally accepted meaning. However if you want a person to heal it’s important to listen and try to understand how words and ideas make them feel. Otherwise, they will see your interactions as judgement.
Apparently for-tay is the UK pronunciation. Imma keep saying it like that tho. Just like niche is NEESH and charade is sha-RAHD and homage is OH-MAHJ. Language is weird.
Good sir, I see what you’re doing wrong here and if you don’t mind allow me to correct you.Apparently for-tay is the UK pronunciation. Imma keep saying it like that tho. Just like niche is NEESH and charade is sha-RAHD and homage is OH-MAHJ. Language is weird.
i use at least 3 of those 4Apparently for-tay is the UK pronunciation. Imma keep saying it like that tho. Just like niche is NEESH and charade is sha-RAHD and homage is OH-MAHJ. Language is weird.
I’m going to guess that we use the same three.i use at least 3 of those 4
does this make me british![]()