Equipment Recommendations - The Home For New System and Upgrade Advice

Russ I said:
I've got a question about (relatively) inexpensive speakers and getting the best bang for my buck.

I'm planning to buy new speakers for my daughter, who will be moving into a house with a good-sized living room with wooden floors, and that's where I assume the stereo will be. I set her up with a system several years ago, and it definitely is time for some upgrades. The integrated amp she will be using is a Pioneer SA-950. It's a 37-year-old design that puts out 70 WPC and seems to be working well. For her turntable, I'll be sending a Technics SL-Q3, which also has been around for a while (released 1979-80), but has worked well for me whenever I've played around with it listening to records in my basement. For speakers, I'm looking for bookshelfs under $500, and of course the more under the better! Here are some I'm considering, and I'd be happy to hear what any of you have to say about these or other choices. I know there are lots of factors to consider when assessing speakers, but the goal here is a system that works and sounds pretty good, and many of the factors that matter are ones my daughter won't be thinking much about anyway.

In no particular order:

Klipsh RP600M - Steve Guttenberg gushes about these and says they are 'magic'
Wharfdale Diamond 12.1
Elac Debut 2.0 line (seems there are a few options?)
PSB Alpha P5
Paradigm Monitor SE Atom
Triangle Borea BRO3 (a bit above the $500 cutoff)

This list is based solely on scoping out sub-$500 speakers online and reading reviews. Not sure that's a great way to go, but then again, for under $500, I'm not sure there are many alternatives. Your feedback/advice/suggestions will be appreciated.
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Are the 600Ms under $500??! Thought those were more expensive than that, I have the R-51PMs which have been great to my ears, those are holding me over until I pick up Wharfdales. Those are powered though which you won’t need, so you can pick up the R-51Ms for even cheaper
 
Lord Diaper Baby said:
@HiFi Guy I stumbled across this thread on the Hoffman forums and I assume you are the same "HIFIGuy" (with the same avatar) on there. Unless you are an imposter of that HiFi Guy in which case you'd be a LoFiHiFiGuy. But I digress...

forums.stevehoffman.tv

Rogue Pharoah Integrated no longer pleasing.

I joined this forum because I've noticed a lot of Rogue Audio users here from reading other threads. I bought a used Rogue Audio Pharoah a couple...
forums.stevehoffman.tv forums.stevehoffman.tv

It seems you've had (or have) a Rogue Audio Pharaoh? I'm between this and a Prima Luna EVO 400 which, if my memory is correct (in fact, you signature may have it listed but I've turned those off), you use one?

A AV place in LV sells Rogue and I'm not too far out from Upscale Audio (~4 hours) to make it not worthwhile to go check it out - as well, I've spoken with the guys at Upscale about my interest in the Prima Luna.

But from someone who has had both....what are your thoughts I guess generally between the two? The price is not too far off between the two for that to be a deciding factor.

I like the idea of the extra power of the Rogue and the hybrid aspect (if I got the Prima it would be my first all tube amp; ironically, I've played guitar for almost 25 years and haven't had a SS guitar amp since the first little Fender practice amp my mom got me). But it has features that are a little much for me....won't make use of the processor loop or phono stage (off-board phono; although I've heard the phono on the Rogue if you care to compare it with high end externals).

I like the simplicity of inputs on the PL. No labels telling me what to plug in, just a bunch of inputs (well, the HT bypass but I believe the Rogue has that too and I need it with neither). Don't need an onboard DAC or phono; and I like that it has the sub option in mono or stereo. I've heard the UL operation gives it a more "modern", focused sound and the triode op that classic tube warmness.

Any comparison of the headphone amp between the two? I seldom use headphones and when I do I put a BT transmitter dongle and listen wireless while walking around the house. PL seems to think highly of their headphone amp.

I'll be using Martin Logan Motion 40s, which from my discussions with Upscale and PL blog posts I've seen, behave well with the Prima Luna; and I don't think they should have any issue with the Rogue. However, my next upgrade (say, 1-2 years) are a pair of Klipsch Forte (which should likewise play well with either amp?) or maybe the Wharfedale Lintons (your review piqued my interest).

I'm not looking to buy anything till February or so. I leave for some training with my work in late summer/early fall and that will take me away from home for ~6 months so I don't plan on getting new toys just to leave them sitting.

Anyway, any opinions on the two would be much appreciated. And, of course, anyone else who may have insight between the two amps....please, chime in. I just know @HiFi Guy has experience with both.

Cheers!
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I had a Rogue Pharoah for a while. Back then, I had a pair of Magnepan 1.7i, and had tried a few different amps to find the magic with them. Oddly, conventional wisdom says you want as much power and current as you can get. I started with a pair of huge Emotiva monoblocks (1000 watts into 4 ohms) and an Emotiva preamp. No magic. The Emotiva preamp was a great preamp though, even though the built in phono stage is a let down.

Next was the Rogue. A very nice piece that now resides with @jaycee . Two things I didn’t like- I found the headphone section a bit noisy. Also, I could make the amp go into protection pretty easily. Loud volumes plus deep bass- no bueno. To be fair, the Maggies are a tough load, and lots of amps aren’t happy running them. On paper, I should have been golden. In reality, I wasn’t. The Pharaoh can run any reasonable load though, and certainly won’t break a sweat with what you have now or plan to buy. If you are into headphones though- it’s not quiet.

My Prima Luna Dialogue Premium HP integrated replaced the Rogue. The worst match on paper for the Maggies, and totally against conventional wisdom. In reality the best match. Ultimately I came to the conclusion that while Maggies can go plenty deep, they lack in dynamics. They went, the Prima Luna stayed. And it’s still here, likely to never leave.

It doesn’t sound very good cold from the box. Give it 100-200 hours and you’ll be happy, although it doesn’t sound particularly “tubey”. At about 8 months, it was like someone flipped a switch. Suddenly it sounded like a tube amp. I’m thinking it takes that long for the output transformers to break in.

I’m assuming you’ve watched the videos at Upscale. Is there a difference between ultralinear and triode mode? Yes but it’s not huge. I use it occasionally as a kind of reverse loudness button. I leave it in ultralinear most of the time, but if I’m listening to music or watching a movie with exaggerated bass, I’ll cut the bass by switching to triode.

As far as the headphone section, it’s the best I’ve ever heard. But it’s not a separate amp like the Rogue- it’s the same output going to the speakers fed though a resistor network and relays to cut the output power. It still has loads of output and should be able to drive 95% of the headphones on the market.

I wouldn’t buy the EVO-400 though- I’d go 300. Tubes don’t last forever and retubing my amp is expensive. The 300 and 400 will sound the same and the difference between 36 and 72 watts is negligible. The 400 won’t play twice as loud as the 300. The human ear doesn’t work that way. To perceive something twice as loud, you need 10 times the power. So you’d need 360 watts per channel to perceive twice the volume of the EVO-300. The only reasons I bought the high powered PL was due to the Maggies. And at the time the only amp they had that did headphones was the Dialogue Premium HP.

Also 36 watts per channel plus Fortes has the ability to melt your mind and damage your hearing of you aren’t careful. The 400 (with twice the power) is totally insane.
 
Ghost said:
Are the 600Ms under $500??! Thought those were more expensive than that, I have the R-51PMs which have been great to my ears, those are holding me over until I pick up Wharfdales. Those are powered though which you won’t need, so you can pick up the R-51Ms for even cheaper
Click to expand...
Ah, you’re right! Not sure how/why I thought they were under $500.
 
HiFi Guy said:
I had a Rogue Pharoah for a while. Back then, I had a pair of Magnepan 1.7i, and had tried a few different amps to find the magic with them. Oddly, conventional wisdom says you want as much power and current as you can get. I started with a pair of huge Emotiva monoblocks (1000 watts into 4 ohms) and an Emotiva preamp. No magic. The Emotiva preamp was a great preamp though, even though the built in phono stage is a let down.

Next was the Rogue. A very nice piece that now resides with @jaycee . Two things I didn’t like- I found the headphone section a bit noisy. Also, I could make the amp go into protection pretty easily. Loud volumes plus deep bass- no bueno. To be fair, the Maggies are a tough load, and lots of amps aren’t happy running them. On paper, I should have been golden. In reality, I wasn’t. The Pharaoh can run any reasonable load though, and certainly won’t break a sweat with what you have now or plan to buy. If you are into headphones though- it’s not quiet.

My Prima Luna Dialogue Premium HP integrated replaced the Rogue. The worst match for the Maggies, and totally against conventional wisdom. In reality the best match. Ultimately I can to the conclusion that while Maggies can go plenty deep, they lack in dynamics. They went, the Prima Luna stayed. And it’s still here, likely to never leave.

It doesn’t sound very good cold from the box. Give it 100-200 hours and you’ll be happy, although it doesn’t sound particularly “tubey”. At about 8 months, it was like someone flipped a switch. Suddenly it sounded like a tube amp. I’m thinking it takes that long for the output transformers to break in.

I’m assuming you’ve watched the videos at Upscale. Is there a difference between ultralinear and triode mode? Yes but it’s not huge. I use it occasionally as a kind of reverse loudness button. I leave it in ultralinear most of the time, but if I’m listening to music or watching a movie with exaggerated bass, I’ll cut the bass by switching to triode.

As far as the headphone section, it’s the best I’ve ever heard. But it’s not a separate amp like the Rogue- it’s the same output going to the speakers fed though a resistor network and relays to cut the output power. It still has loads of output and should be able to drive 95% of the headphones on the market.

I wouldn’t buy the EVO-400 though- I’d go 300. Tubes don’t last forever and retubing my amp is expensive. The 300 and 400 will sound the same and the difference between 36 and 72 watts is negligible. The 400 won’t play twice as loud as the 300. The human ear doesn’t work that way. To perceive something twice as loud, you need 10 times the power. So you’d need 360 watts per channel to perceive twice the volume of the EVO-300. The only reasons I bought the high powered PL was due to the Maggies. And at the time the only amp they had that did headphones was the Dialogue Premium HP.

Also 36 watts per channel plus Fortes has the ability to melt your mind and damage your hearing of you aren’t careful. The 400 (with twice the power) is totally insane.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the well laid-out answer. Yes, I've seen the video. I am (and have been leaning) toward the PL. I'll reconsider the 300. Save a few bucks and it's always good to reevaluate what I need - build to a spec rather than a $ ceiling.

I did read in that thread that someone mentioned - may have even been you - that the headphone section is noisy in the Rogue. I'm hoping the shop near me has it in stock (it doesn't say "ships from manufacturer" so that's encouraging) so I can give it a proper go.

If you don't mind me asking, how much does it roughly cost you to retube your Dialogue with your tubes of choice?

Well, while I typed this I had one of my tube amps warming up. Gonna go pluck the 'ol geetar.

Again, thanks for taking the time!
 
Russ I said:
I've got a question about (relatively) inexpensive speakers and getting the best bang for my buck.

I'm planning to buy new speakers for my daughter, who will be moving into a house with a good-sized living room with wooden floors, and that's where I assume the stereo will be. I set her up with a system several years ago, and it definitely is time for some upgrades. The integrated amp she will be using is a Pioneer SA-950. It's a 37-year-old design that puts out 70 WPC and seems to be working well. For her turntable, I'll be sending a Technics SL-Q3, which also has been around for a while (released 1979-80), but has worked well for me whenever I've played around with it listening to records in my basement. For speakers, I'm looking for bookshelfs under $500, and of course the more under the better! Here are some I'm considering, and I'd be happy to hear what any of you have to say about these or other choices. I know there are lots of factors to consider when assessing speakers, but the goal here is a system that works and sounds pretty good, and many of the factors that matter are ones my daughter won't be thinking much about anyway.

In no particular order:

Klipsh RP600M - Steve Guttenberg gushes about these and says they are 'magic'
Wharfdale Diamond 12.1
Elac Debut 2.0 line (seems there are a few options?)
PSB Alpha P5
Paradigm Monitor SE Atom
Triangle Borea BRO3 (a bit above the $500 cutoff)

This list is based solely on scoping out sub-$500 speakers online and reading reviews. Not sure that's a great way to go, but then again, for under $500, I'm not sure there are many alternatives. Your feedback/advice/suggestions will be appreciated.
Click to expand...
The Elac, Paradigm and the PSB are the stars of that list. I’d go Elac.

The only way I’d buy the Klipsch would be to use them with a tube amp. And then I’d still buy the Elacs.
 
HiFi Guy said:
The Elac, Paradigm and the PSB are the stars of that list. I’d go Elac.

The only way I’d buy the Klipsch would be to use them with a tube amp. And then I’d still buy the Elacs.
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Haha! Thank you! Any preference between the DB52 and DB62?

EDIT: Looks like the 62 is a bit bigger speaker with a slightly larger woofer. And jeez, Amazon is selling them for $251 a pair. That'll be hard to beat.
 
Lord Diaper Baby said:
Thank you for the well laid-out answer. Yes, I've seen the video. I am (and have been leaning) toward the PL. I'll reconsider the 300. Save a few bucks and it's always good to reevaluate what I need - build to a spec rather than a $ ceiling.

I did read in that thread that someone mentioned - may have even been you - that the headphone section is noisy in the Rogue. I'm hoping the shop near me has it in stock (it doesn't say "ships from manufacturer" so that's encouraging) so I can give it a proper go.

If you don't mind me asking, how much does it roughly cost you to retube your Dialogue with your tubes of choice?

Well, while I typed this I had one of my tube amps warming up. Gonna go pluck the 'ol geetar.

Again, thanks for taking the time!
Click to expand...
The 6 smaller tubes at the front (input and driver tubes) last years and years. The two in the center are the most important- I like Gold Lions. They are $90 a pair. For the others I use the least expensive Electroharmnix, $60 for 4. So $150 for all the small 12AU7s.

The output tubes (the 8 large ones on the HP/EV0-400) are what hurt. A set is $480. They last about a year, but between TV and music, my system is usually on 12 hours a day minimum. I no longer replace my tubes all at once. I keep a couple of spares (I like the Gold Lion KT-88) and if a tube goes, I replace the one tube. The auto bias/protection circuitry works exactly as advertised.

The tubes that come with the PL are made in China. I tend to prefer the build and sound quality of Russian tubes. There is a difference, and it’s not small. @AnthonyI made the move recently, maybe he’ll chime in.
 
Russ I said:
Haha! Thank you! Any preference between the DB52 and DB62?

EDIT: Looks like the 62 is a bit bigger speaker with a slightly larger woofer. And jeez, Amazon is selling them for $251 a pair. That'll be hard to beat.
Click to expand...
The 62 is what you want. And $251 is stupid cheap.
 
HiFi Guy said:
The 6 smaller tubes at the front (input and driver tubes) last years and years. The two in the center are the most important- I like Gold Lions. They are $90 a pair. For the others I use the least expensive Electroharmnix, $60 for 4. So $150 for all the small 12AU7s.

The output tubes (the 8 large ones on the HP/EV0-400) are what hurt. A set is $480. They last about a year, but between TV and music, my system is usually on 12 hours a day minimum. I no longer replace my tubes all at once. I keep a couple of spares (I like the Gold Lion KT-88) and if a tube goes, I replace the one tube. The auto bias/protection circuitry works exactly as advertised.

The tubes that come with the PL are made in China. I tend to prefer the build and sound quality of Russian tubes. There is a difference, and it’s not small. @AnthonyI made the move recently, maybe he’ll chime in.
Click to expand...
12 hours a day on (do these stay on in some sort of standby or when not using totally off?)?

On a work day and with life, I probably listen to my stereo 1-3 hours a day and sometimes not at all. I don't use it for anything but music. So I imagine I'd get more life out of them. 480 for a set isn't horrible if they re not being used all in one shot.
 
Lord Diaper Baby said:
Thank you for the well laid-out answer. Yes, I've seen the video. I am (and have been leaning) toward the PL. I'll reconsider the 300. Save a few bucks and it's always good to reevaluate what I need - build to a spec rather than a $ ceiling.

I did read in that thread that someone mentioned - may have even been you - that the headphone section is noisy in the Rogue. I'm hoping the shop near me has it in stock (it doesn't say "ships from manufacturer" so that's encouraging) so I can give it a proper go.

If you don't mind me asking, how much does it roughly cost you to retube your Dialogue with your tubes of choice?

Well, while I typed this I had one of my tube amps warming up. Gonna go pluck the 'ol geetar.

Again, thanks for taking the time!
Click to expand...

HiFi Guy said:
The 6 smaller tubes at the front (input and driver tubes) last years and years. The two in the center are the most important- I like Gold Lions. They are $90 a pair. For the others I use the least expensive Electroharmnix, $60 for 4. So $150 for all the small 12AU7s.

The output tubes (the 8 large ones on the HP/EV0-400) are what hurt. A set is $480. They last about a year, but between TV and music, my system is usually on 12 hours a day minimum. I no longer replace my tubes all at once. I keep a couple of spares (I like the Gold Lion KT-88) and if a tube goes, I replace the one tube. The auto bias/protection circuitry works exactly as advertised.

The tubes that come with the PL are made in China. I tend to prefer the build and sound quality of Russian tubes. There is a difference, and it’s not small. @AnthonyI made the move recently, maybe he’ll chime in.
Click to expand...
I'm still running the stock driver tubes, which as @HiFi Guy mentioned last years. I did replace my gain tubes (the two small center ones) and power tubes with Gold Lions (12AU7 and KT88) and the difference from the stock tubes is night and day honestly. While I enjoyed the PL with stock tubes, my expectations were surpassed, by a long shot, when upgrading.

Money well spent, but it isn't exactly cheap. I don't run mine quite as long as HiFi does, but for sure 3-4 hours a day, give or take. At that pace I think I should get a few years out of the power tubes, which are the real wallet crushers. I think 2500 hours on the power tubes is what can be expected, I have the benefit of running my second system on occasion, saving some ware and tear on the tubes. All that being said, it's the price of running tubes, they will need to be replaced in time, but if you're not a power spinner/listener, $500ish every few years isn't THAT bad, you budget for it and you move forward. I've always reminded people that the higher up the ladder you go, the more your "maintenance" cost will become, tubes & cartridges...............but what I'm hearing makes it all worth while ;)
 
Lord Diaper Baby said:
12 hours a day on (do these stay on in some sort of standby or when not using totally off?)?

On a work day and with life, I probably listen to my stereo 1-3 hours a day and sometimes not at all. I don't use it for anything but music. So I imagine I'd get more life out of them. 480 for a set isn't horrible if they re not being used all in one shot.
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No standby with the PL. When it’s off, it’s off. My wife works from home and the system does double duty between music and video.
 
HiFi Guy said:
No experience, but here’s something to consider: if you have service needs, the amp will likely have to be returned to the UK for service. @AnthonyI experienced this with a Musical Fidelity phono stage.
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Definitely something to consider because you will be down for a while, in my case it was a little over a month.
 
Hi everyone, my friend is looking into buying a turntable. I would be able to give him a recommendation, but he says he does not care about anything but sound quality, and I do not know much about high-end audiophile turntables. Would I be able to get some recommendations?
 
Taevis said:
Hi everyone, my friend is looking into buying a turntable. I would be able to give him a recommendation, but he says he does not care about anything but sound quality, and I do not know much about high-end audiophile turntables. Would I be able to get some recommendations?
Click to expand...

you will get some good advice here, but first will need to post a budget including cartridge, musical tastes, whether they have a phono preamp, etc.
 
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JohnnyCashFan said:
you will get some good advice here, but first will need to post a budget including cartridge, musical tastes, whether they have a phono preamp, etc.
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My friend said that sound quality was the only important factor, but let's keep it under $2,000 for his sake. His music taste almost entirely consists of rock, especially the classics such as AC/DC, Led Zeppelin, etc. He does not have a phono preamp. I believe he has his own speakers already though.
 
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