Kanye

dhodo said:
I guess it depends on where you value the influence the most. As I said, I can't deny that Kanye's influence is further reaching, but in the underground scene, I'm not sure it would be true that everyone owes more to Kanye than those other names I listed.

I agree with you on his production being his strong suit and I don't disagree that he is a great producer. For me personally, it is hard to say he is definitively the best of his generation though.
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I'm not trying to say that one person had a more valuable/better influence. I'm just saying that Ye influenced an entire genre of music like nobody else. And he did it multiple times. His ability to reinvent his sound is really impressive no matter how you slice it. I love Madlib and Doom but both guys have a lane and stick to it. Not hating on them at all--they are extremely good at that lane, so I don't see any reason for them to change it.

dhodo said:
I guess it is really hard to compare directly. Kanye did the majority of the production on his great albums (I think?), Which you certainly can't say for all of DOOM's, even though he is a great producer. Which is impressive. So I guess it becomes harder to argue against if the claim is that Kanye is the greatest of his generation to be majority responsible for the production and rapping on his albums.
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You could definitely argue that Doom as a rapper is way more influential than Kanye's rapping. I think Andre 3000 is up there too for most influential rappers. But I think you're conflating personal preference for the music vs more objective view of the widespread influence Kanye had on rap music.
 
The thing about trying to have a discussion about Kanye is inevitably his stans will butt in and start deflecting if you try to say something about his work that they disagree with. Kanye's public image is so intertwined with his music it makes it difficult to "separate the art from the artist" as it were. I haven't watched Anthony Fantano in a long time but one thing he said about MBDTF in his controversial review has at least a little bit of truth to it; if you don't care about Kanye's personal life or his widely publicized antics then a lot of the albums impact is lost. And as time goes on, I care less and less about Kanye's shenanigans and the music hasn't been good enough to make me want to stick around, and, in the case of Jesus is King, really only adds to the weird aura around Kanye.

I think Kanye is an immensely talented artist but he and his fans have built up this destructive ideal of the "troubled genius" who has a few screws loose but produces great works of art despite or even because of that. I think theres something to be said for someone not being afraid to be flawed and human in their art, but anytime someone shows concern or suggests Kanye needs help, it gets twisted by his fans into an attempt to suppress his artistic vision or something like that. It makes me feel like some people want Kanye to go off the deep end solely for their entertainment and don't really care about him as a person, a mindset that's unfortunately become commonplace to a lot of entitled people who live their life on Twitter. They call themselves fans but just want new music and that's it, mental health be damned.
 
i think the thing here is that firstly, this person is unfortunately obviously mentally ill. and im not trying to paint him in a negative light - just the facts. somehow his (and the family he's with) have this crazy detached lifestyle that encourages it and enables his odd behavior. im guilty too since the more press or spotlight we give these folks the worse its going to get. as a people it would be great (but naive) to expect us to honor regular hard working folks and values instead of reality shit shows that do nothing but make us believe we need to be more like that instead of ourselves. i mean shit; we have a fucking kanye thread for fucks sake, lol. as divided as this country is right now im hoping it leads to new brands of thinking, challenging authority positively, and practicing love and compassion. i really feel sorry for kanye instead of my knee jerk reaction. he seems to have everything anyone could want and its clearly not enough. and theres probably nothing but suck ups and sycophants encouring his behavior while he writes checks all day long. youll always see it from mike tyson, michael jackson, mc hammer etc. if the well dries up they'll leave his ass like roaches under a bright light.
 
the american system is so bizarre that you could definitely see a write-in candidate like kanye somehow garnering enough electoral college votes to command the presidency

quite frankly, after trump, nothing would surprise
 
you dont see anyone trying to show off or buy those hitler paintings. in kanyes case hes not obviously this bad. but hes current and im not in the habit of supporting someone financially when its clear his self-indulgent ideology is wacky at best.

whatwhatsaywhat said:
isn't it just a case of separating the art from the artist?

something that's required across the history of popular music, with paedophiles, murderers, and absolute reprobates making some fab music
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Benhawaii said:
you dont see anyone trying to show off or buy those hitler paintings. in kanyes case hes not obviously this bad. but hes current and im not in the habit of supporting someone financially when its clear his self-indulgent ideology is wacky at best.
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firstly, yr comparing crap paintings with an undoubted legend of music

secondly, godwin's law invoked; discussion OVER!! :p
 
Benhawaii said:
just out of curiosity and for context,

what are your top ten all time hip hop records?
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The question wasn't posed to me, but it made me think about how I would answer it because I agree with @whatwhatsaywhat here. And Kanye was involved on 5 of my top 10 and shows up in 9 of my top 20 albums. So yeah, Kanye does define hip-hop for me in a lot of ways haha What that says about me, I'm not too sure (maybe it's a generational thing?). I'm definitely one who separates the art from the artist. I'm sure my list doesn't line up with most others, but here's my top 10:

1. Nas - Illmatic
2. Common - Be
3. Kanye West - Late Registration
4. The Notorious B.I.G. - Ready to Die
5. Wu-Tang Clan - Enter the Wu-Tang (36 Chambers)
6. Lupe Fiasco - Lupe Fiasco’s The Cool
7. Jay-Z - The Blueprint
8. Mos Def - Black on Both Sides
9. The Game - The Documentary
10. Kanye West - My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy
 
Benhawaii said:
just out of curiosity and for context,

what are your top ten all time hip hop records?
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hmmmmmmmm, tough q.....it depends on what you consider hip-hop, i guess? cos for me, the likes of the avalanches, dj shadow, and massive attack etc. are part of the broad spectrum of what 'hip-hop' entails and so the likes of since i left you, endtroducing and mezzanine would be right up there

but limiting to 'rap' only, off the top of my head (more or less), i would definitely have these in the conversation in terms of from late 80s, when i first heard rap music, to nowish, as a top ten:

kendrick lamar - to pimp a butterfly
outkast - speakerboxxx / the love below
common - be
kanye west - my beautiful dark twisted fantasy
nas - illmatic
missy elliott - miss e
beastie boys - paul's boutique
public enemy - fear of a black planet
dr dre - the chronic
public enemy - it takes a nation of millions

plus i have a soft spot for the geto boys - we can't be stopped but it's more sentimental affection than recognising it as a straight-up piece of genius
 
Indymisanthrope said:
I was mostly kidding and don’t disagree. I just think “undoubted legend” is a big description for somebody who is barely halfway into their career. Not saying it won’t end up being true. It’s just early in the story to say that the legacy is cemented for good.
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It's a bit of hyperbole, but he's definitely a part of the cultural zeitgeist. I also think it's fair to say he has at least 5 certifiable classic albums at this point which is impressive no matter who you are.
 
Even if Kanye only ever made 808s & Heartbreak, he'd still be one of the most influential artists of the last two decades. The Weeknd, Drake and countless others have their careers thanks to that album, Kanye basically gave birth to a new generation of rappers with 808s alone, for better or worse. The man is a bad quotes factory, but his influence on music can't be understated.
 
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