jaycee
Well-Known Member
Fahim's rhyme scheme is so simplistic it's more out of 1971 than 1991... but it is over very different production and it works for me (sometimes). I'm not the biggest fan, but I might just not "get it"
Kanye
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Fahim's rhyme scheme is so simplistic it's more out of 1971 than 1991... but it is over very different production and it works for me (sometimes). I'm not the biggest fan, but I might just not "get it"
MikeH
Well-Known Member
Jonathan Y
Well-Known Member
Nahh 71 is right lmao sometimes Fahim has hands down the cringiest bars ever then sometimes he says some simple shit that is so powerful ur like god damnit this kid!!!
MikeH
Well-Known Member
I also think with Kanye, that his ability to completely switch things up is really really impressive. I can't think of a ton of rappers/producers who completely changed their sound so many times and released so many solid albums. The progression from College Dropout to Yeezus is pretty insane if you go back and listen to them one after another. Both are amazing albums, IMO, and couldn't be any more different. If you took Ye's voice off of them, you would have no idea they were from the same person's discography. While so many other rap producers are known for their "sound", I think it's really cool to see how Kanye re-invented himself so many times and was so good at so many different types of sounds.
Woob_woob
Well-Known Member
I mainly mean that there hasnt been another mainstream hip hop artist of the 00s and 10s that isnt afraid to change their sound and try new things. Kanye sounds different on the graduation trilogy than he does on 808 which is different than MBDTF which is different than Yeezus, etc... Eminem is a better mainstream technical rapper than Kanye, both from the same era, but Eminem never left his comfort zone and made an 808s, Jay Z doesnt have a Yeezus. Kanye never fell into a groove although he easily could have and had a successful career. To really move a genre forward the most popular artists have to take risks and try new things, and Kanye has always done that
jaycee
Well-Known Member
People used to say this about Madonna. Wait. Are Kanye and Madonna the same person? Oh boi.
Benhawaii
Active Member
id argue that the beasties did this first and much better than kanye ever has. and that was over thirty years ago. and i can list probably a dozen or more so that fit this bill. my point with manye isnt that hes talented - he obviously is. its just that hes had this tremendous luck to have the exposure and in our current climate with younger listeners that dont go far back into music like the old heads did - don't realize that a lot of the current stuff has been done before. i read somewhere above that hip hop back in the day didnt sample jazz, edm, etc. which is false. tribe literally had ron carter and most hip hip in the 90s is derived from jazz, soul, blues and funk. and there was a shit ton of techno in rap in the 90s.
MikeH
Well-Known Member
If you're gonna say that Kanye was just lucky, I think you are supremely underselling him and those that listen to and like his music. A) he hustled his ASS off to get noticed and B) luck is an element in anything. That's like saying well The Beatles were lucky that Brian Epstein happened to see them perform at the Cavern Club...
I never said he was the ONLY one to reinvent himself, just that it isn't that that common, seemingly, as a producer in hip hop. Lots of guys get well known for one thing, have a sound and stick with it. Dilla was an amazing producer. But you know a Dilla track as soon as the snare hits. Not saying there's anything wrong with that but Kanye bucked the trend at the time and he has some clear eras of sounds. He very easily could have flamed out.
I don't know that the Beasties made things quite as varied as Kanye's discography, but that could be coming from a place of ignorance as I'm not SUPER familiar with their entire catalogue. I have always thought a lot of their stuff sounds the same but maybe it's because their voices are so prominent and iconic hah.
As for people saying hip hop has never sampled other genres, that's just crazy talk. I didn't see anybody post that, but maybe I missed it. I also don't think anybody is calling him the best rapper or producer ever to exist. And I'm not saying he's the only person to ever re-invent themselves. But in terms of influence on his generation and the one that followed him, not sure who else had greater influence on the current crop of rappers.
Benhawaii
Active Member
it was hard for me to wrap my head around too. ive tattooed a lot of celebs, athletes etc. and dealing with the wealthy and famous one thing many said stuck out to me - they just happened to catch someones eye at the right time. in entertainment its funny to hear someone be humble and tell you that in the audition process there were more talented people in the hall etc. - just that someone saw them in a different light, or knew someone through a connection etc. same for most people - why they call it getting a break. im not shitting on kanye - thats not my point. im just tired of so many folks that crown this guy after hes crowned himself. the dudes talented but also mentally impaired and cant be helped. go listen to some tribe called quest. some de la soul. the difference in all the beasties albums. i can go on and on and on. and again - music and taste are subjective. id make the point that success and selling records shouldnt be any benchmark for genius. kanye found his niche and settled in. lots of listeners today take whats force fed and addictive consumerism is somethng that targets demographics into turning a profit.
and not to call you out @Jonathan Y but this is a falsehood:
"BUT to address the new age of hip hop part. Hip Hop today is way more technically savvy than in the past. Production wise, writing, rhyme schemes, flows, etc. Not to mention the incorporation of every other genre (country, edm, jazz, etc.) which was not around back then. "
hip hop in the 90s was still underground and had to fight its way into the collective conscious. even before gangster rap ironically became more successful. less tech and mostly homemade beats, less money invested means it really was homegrown.
in summary, kanye is over rated. hes a legend for sure - but much of that is his image and antics. hes a larger than life personality which is whats made him an undeniable commercial success. but dig from 60s be bop and to date and youll find a lot of what kanye does is simply repeated or stolen. yes, every artist is a thief and all that. but we have a thread devoted to kanye when there are so many other deserving artists today that could be seen his equals if you dont count exposure and sales as criteria.
and not to call you out @Jonathan Y but this is a falsehood:
"BUT to address the new age of hip hop part. Hip Hop today is way more technically savvy than in the past. Production wise, writing, rhyme schemes, flows, etc. Not to mention the incorporation of every other genre (country, edm, jazz, etc.) which was not around back then. "
hip hop in the 90s was still underground and had to fight its way into the collective conscious. even before gangster rap ironically became more successful. less tech and mostly homemade beats, less money invested means it really was homegrown.
in summary, kanye is over rated. hes a legend for sure - but much of that is his image and antics. hes a larger than life personality which is whats made him an undeniable commercial success. but dig from 60s be bop and to date and youll find a lot of what kanye does is simply repeated or stolen. yes, every artist is a thief and all that. but we have a thread devoted to kanye when there are so many other deserving artists today that could be seen his equals if you dont count exposure and sales as criteria.
MikeH
Well-Known Member
It comes across that his current antics and what he has become seem to be coloring your judgment of his entire discography and status, which is fine and understandable, but it becomes hard to have a good faith discussion about him then. You don't have to like Tribe OR Kanye, or De La OR Kanye...they are also from different generations. I don't think you'd have Kanye without Tribe, but you also wouldn't have a lot of the new generation of rappers without Kanye. Nobody is saying Kanye's album sales or success define his musical legacy, or at least I'm not. If you go purely on his music, he has left a big mark. There's no denying it really. His larger than life personality you speak of, that supposedly made him famous instead of his music talent, wasn't really on display early in his career either so I'm not buying that argument. The first thing I remember happening with him outside of music was when he said "George Bush doesn't care about Black people" which was well after he became famous.
And again, the luck thing is such a weird argument to make because it can be said about anybody in show biz, as you mentioned. If De La never meets Prince Paul--do they get popular? Do the Beastie Boys get popular if the never met Rick Rubin and Russell Simmons in college? The Beasties are a product of their time as much as Kanye is. MTV introduced the Beastie Boys to every household in America.
You say Kanye found his niche--which niche is that? It sure isn't his sound, which has evolved pretty drastically over time. I also think it's pretty unfair to generalize and say "lots of listeners today take what's force fed" as if people who like Kanye's music only like it because it was force fed to them...you think the Beastie Boys weren't force fed to young people on MTV? It's a strange double-standard you're operating with here...
There's a weird phenomenon lately (maybe I'm just noticing it) that in a lot of genres of music, old heads don't want to give any credit to newer people who are successful in different genres of music. This happens a ton in jazz too--someone said to me yesterday that Kamasi Washington, Robert Glasper and Terrace Martin aren't jazz musicians and don't make REAL jazz music because they have a hip hop influence instead of purely being influenced by jazz and that other, better jazz musicians deserve to be more famous than them. I simply do not understand why people have to tear some artists down to try to make a point that it used to be better in the olden days or that other people deserve success more.
I don't think Kanye really invented anything, just as I don't think any new music at this point is wholly original. There are trends in music. And maybe Kanye took elements from other musicians or acts, but nobody else in his generation really put together different elements together like he did at the time he was doing it. Look at the reviews of 808s when it first came out and how critically panned it was, and then look at how rap music changed within a year after Kanye released it.
I fully understand why it's hard to separate art from artist, especially in Kanye's case where his persona has become such a huge part of who he is...but if you can somehow look past his antics of the past few years, I do think it's very hard to argue against how influential he has been in hip hop from a purely musical standpoint.
Benhawaii
Active Member
@MikeH you make some totally valid points. im not trying or ever want to be the get of my lawn guy. and i think you see where im coming from too. my whole vibe is kanye doesnt need his own thread etc. and yes, he got big - but only when his exposure grew. he got shot in the face and made some dope stuff - but was a relatively shy unknown upper middle class chicago kid. he got put on by some bigger talent and came up. but hes supposedly this rap god now (i mean in here with all the serious music folks; we need a thread devoted to his greatness that seems to stay at the top of the forums for either how good he is or how much we can't stand him now). and thats the point - hes popular. popularity isnt inherent of talent. not that im saying hes talentless. i own the entire first half of his legacy on vinyl. all im saying is that yes, hes influential and popular. but that doesn't validate his influence objectively as amazing. someone will come and take the mantle and well debate their contributions. all im pointing out is that folks today dont want to acknowledge or educate themselves to what came prior. not just 90s hip hop but all the way back to delta blues and hymnals. hip hop comes from america and unfortunately slavery etc. i treat it with that kind of respect - and i do listen and like a lot of current artists. im just a naive ideologist that knows deep down in my bones that kanyes popularity and showmanship doesnt elevate him into the best there ever was - which is what most kanye lovers echo after kanye himself continually reminds us all of. maybe its his lack of humility or connection; thinking hes smarter or leading the way for everyone. for me, personally i judge the music based on how it makes me feel. kanye unfortunately has found a was to void other perspectives and is his own worst enemy as hes made it next to impossible to judge him objectively since his fame, production and wordplay are tied hand in hand to a lot of dumb shit he does. kanye for lack of better words is the hitler or trump of rap. he has talent. he has a legacy good and bad. but he also makes it difficult to seperate it all because of inherently who he is / what he does consistently.
that said, i blame the kardashians. look at all the men in relationships prior to and then with any of them ladies. total trainwrecks after. not that its the kardashians fault - its a nation of sycophantic uneducated tmz followers that made them famous and continue to feed that machine. so perhaps its us all along we should be blaming for creating the environment for all of this and not having the balls to break away.
you sound like a fun guy to talk to though. these forums quickly become hate and vitriol. i like hearing other perspectives and realize these are all opinions based upon many experiences over many years that have molded each of us into such interesting and defined creatures. thanks for sharing your views with me. we need more love, compassion and want of other knowledge on this planet. and thats something im sure kanye himself would benefit from greatly.
that said, i blame the kardashians. look at all the men in relationships prior to and then with any of them ladies. total trainwrecks after. not that its the kardashians fault - its a nation of sycophantic uneducated tmz followers that made them famous and continue to feed that machine. so perhaps its us all along we should be blaming for creating the environment for all of this and not having the balls to break away.
you sound like a fun guy to talk to though. these forums quickly become hate and vitriol. i like hearing other perspectives and realize these are all opinions based upon many experiences over many years that have molded each of us into such interesting and defined creatures. thanks for sharing your views with me. we need more love, compassion and want of other knowledge on this planet. and thats something im sure kanye himself would benefit from greatly.
whatwhatsaywhat
Well-Known Member
you and kanye both!
Jonathan Y
Well-Known Member
MikeH
Well-Known Member
I think we both agree he’s polarizing if nothing else haha. I agree that people do put him on too much of a pedestal. I personally think he’s always been a pretty bad rapper but think he’s a hell of a producer and I still stand by him being the most influential producer of his generation and there's a case for best hip hop producer as well but a lot of other people like Madlib are great competition for that title. I also agree with ya that a lot of people, especially younger folks, don’t tend to do their research on the origins of different types of music. Everything came from somewhere. I don't think Kanye is the best rap producer ever, nor is he my personal favorite. He's not my favorite rapper of his generation either. I find it to be kinda sad to see his personal life detract from his musical legacy but it happens to a lot of people.
Fandom is kinda crazy now with a lot of celebrities and there is unfortunately a lot of animosity sometimes, especially on the internet, when people don't agree. Everybody is entitled to their opinion and I'm always happy to discuss with people who actually put some thought into what they are saying and share their view points. I do appreciate the civil back and forth with ya, so cheers for that.
Now I'm gonna go bump some Tribe.
MikeH
Well-Known Member
Haha "It's a walk off!" I have the same general thoughts of ya about his fashion line. But I really had no idea how popular his Yeezy brand. I was reading about it yesterday as an article popped up on my feed about his deal with Gap. Adidas sold 1.3 billion in Yeezy merch last year. And his deal with Gap is pretty insane. If they hit certain benchmarks, he will receive 8.5 million shares of Gap which gives him a bigger equity in the company than Tom Ford for for collaborating with Gucci.
whatwhatsaywhat
Well-Known Member
yeah, the yeezy brand is ridiculously massive and profitable
helps when you sell a $5 plain white t for $85 i guess...
MikeH
Well-Known Member
and that wasn't even for his yeezy brand! I think the Gap partnership is really smart for all involved. Ye gets the factory and production infastructure to keep prices down (something he has said he wanted to do with Yeezy but didn't have the resources for) and Gap gets a much needed facelift. I doubt I'll buy any of the clothing if it's along the lines of his dere-licte stuff hah but it will be interesting to see what he comes up with...
I have nothing constructive to add to the Kanye talk, but I will not let you disrespect T-Pain like that.
Krampus' #1 Diaper Baby
Well-Known Diaper Baby
Lol. TBF, T-Pain was doing his thing before 808s and was probably more influential in its "creative" use among singers. I was also being purposely glib. One, I like 808s and, two, there are artists who have used it to great effect. However, there was definitely a moment in time where it seemed EVERY hip-hop song had it and it just needed to stop (or at least pump the brakes). Jay-z "Death of Auto-tune" was around this time of peak saturation.