Political Discussion

Sure. That is very unfortunate. I think people everywhere are learning as they go in the new world of elections in the Internet age. I certainly agree that I don't think acerbic wit or sarcasm, like perhaps the "If you don't like Corbyn you can fuck off and join the Tories" quip you mentioned, is constructive in terms of outreach.

Ahh, herein lies the rub. They weren't being sarcastic. And- it has to be said- neither are most of the most toxic online Sanders mob. Put it this way; I'm insulated from US political social media by an ocean, several timezones and a general desire to leave it well alone. Even allowing for this, I find Sanders supporters periodically arrive in reply threads for stuff I'm looking at more than any other cohort and many of them behave in a way that if they were on fire, I wouldn't piss on them to put them out. The similarities to the Corbyn accolytes are uncomfortable; especially given how the latter ended up performing once the population got to vote on it.
 
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There was for a time but there is no longer another progressive candidate to vote for. I don't disagree that most people don't vote for policy per se but on personality and other traits they think they can perceive. But I think the number of swayable Democratic primary voters who hadn't already made up their minds *and* are on Twitter is a lot lower than it's made out to be. Again, I'm not saying I think being aggressive and mean on the internet to supporters of other candidates is a good idea. The expectation that Bernie more than any other candidate should write an op-ed to denounce them or go on MSNBC, where his even addressing it would lead to two hours straight of "his supporters are toxic; he just can't win". More voters watch that shit than are on Twitter. Then that stays in the news cycle another few days until he's asked about it again, and it doesn't go away despite his being very clear about it.

Also he's made his case very plain to moderate voters, I would say. He's been clear that his campaign's goals are to increase the quality of life for people of all social classes, races, educations, etc. To tackle inequality, health care that leaves out the most vulnerable and still takes more money from your pocket than universal would, climate change, and neverending war. More than any other candidate it's been exceedingly clear what they're fighting for. If a moderate can see that message and not support it, what is he supposed to do? How much bigger does a tent get? Does he invite the person who brought the swastika flag to his rally last night, too?


Campaigns are not their most vocal, obnoxious supporters.


Sure. That is very unfortunate. I think people everywhere are learning as they go in the new world of elections in the Internet age. I certainly agree that I don't think acerbic wit or sarcasm, like perhaps the "If you don't like Corbyn you can fuck off and join the Tories" quip you mentioned, is constructive in terms of outreach. As mentioned earlier, I think the "Bernie bro" narrative is very easy for some people and certain media to latch onto and make it a story, especially in the absence of actual dirt or substantive criticism of the candidate or policy itself. I understand that this happens. It's frustrating. It's especially frustrating when, for example, Biden himself responds to a man asking about immigration with "You should go vote for Trump" before he's even done asking it. That's actively shooting down someone looking to improve a certain area of life or politics because they don't fall immediately into the camp the candidate is already in and he's not going to entertain listening or changing his mind. But that's not in the news cycle for four years. Decisions are made as to what's in the news and after a while it becomes "fact" to a lot of people, especially those who maybe don't have the time or energy to dig much deeper.

With all due respect I know Britain and I know the party I supported when I lived there. Corbyn was the architect of the the ideological purity, he didn’t deal with the antisemitism and did not, and never has, given a damn about the traditional northern worker. He completely empowered the rise of the angry arrogant ideologically pure men (and yes they were overwhelmingly men) who felt it was their duty to “purge” the party of less radical candidates, many of whom were women or minorities.
 
There was for a time but there is no longer another progressive candidate to vote for. I don't disagree that most people don't vote for policy per se but on personality and other traits they think they can perceive. But I think the number of swayable Democratic primary voters who hadn't already made up their minds *and* are on Twitter is a lot lower than it's made out to be. Again, I'm not saying I think being aggressive and mean on the internet to supporters of other candidates is a good idea. The expectation that Bernie more than any other candidate should write an op-ed to denounce them or go on MSNBC, where his even addressing it would lead to two hours straight of "his supporters are toxic; he just can't win". More voters watch that shit than are on Twitter. Then that stays in the news cycle another few days until he's asked about it again, and it doesn't go away despite his being very clear about it.

Also he's made his case very plain to moderate voters, I would say. He's been clear that his campaign's goals are to increase the quality of life for people of all social classes, races, educations, etc. To tackle inequality, health care that leaves out the most vulnerable and still takes more money from your pocket than universal would, climate change, and neverending war. More than any other candidate it's been exceedingly clear what they're fighting for. If a moderate can see that message and not support it, what is he supposed to do? How much bigger does a tent get? Does he invite the person who brought the swastika flag to his rally last night, too?

I thought we were discussing sort-of the whole history of the last 4 years and the 2020 campaign not just the last 24 hours.

I understand and think you are making good points.

My point about addressing it head on in the media and accepting a news cycle or two about his supporters are toxic would be more than worth it to marginalize those people. Calling it out wihtin your camp isn't good enough and doesn't tell the people who are not on social media counting the percentage of misogynistic toxic assholes as small and irrelevant that you care about them. Not addressing it in the media they pay attention to tells them that we don't think this is a big deal so it isn't even if it is a big deal to you. It was the wrong message and Bernie should've ate shit on it far earlier than after super Tuesday imo.

My thinking/argument is that while the case and value that Bernie has made has been clear to you and me it isn't clear to regular, less engaged, average, whatever you want to call it voters. Other engaged folks who were not convinced or afraid of progressive policies for various reasons were not engaged enough by the campaign such as the black moderate voting block in the South and elsewhere and the Sanders campaign needed those folks on board. That was a campaign failure.
 
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Hey, Alabama executed another person today. Great to be in the top 5 globally for capital punishment behind China, Iran, Saudia Arabia and Iraq.

Keep the government out of my health care but deciding executions? No questions asked.

This case is particularly disturbing to me. I am anti-death penalty. Our system is too broken for us to ensure that we are not ending the life of innocent people. And this case is just mind boggling. I am definitely arm chair quarterbacking because I don't have access to the exhibits and testimony. But it seems like this is a clear case of their being enough doubt to halt an execution. Ugh.

And the Supreme Court refused to halt it. We need to make sure we don't have a conservative majority on the court. This is just one of the hundreds of examples why.
 
why they went with him over the other Democrats running.

just my opinion:

Because Trump and the tacit if not vocal acceptance of white supremacy and racist ideology by the current administration is their #1 concern
progressive policies feel fringe to them
they are religious Christians
they don't trust white people to have their back
they don't see the white people who they know control politics and policies and the money supporting the progressive candidates
and maybe most importantly
Because Biden has cultivated a relationship with them over his political career and others/Sanders was unable to do so over the last 4 years
 
This case is particularly disturbing to me. I am anti-death penalty. Our system is too broken for us to ensure that we are not ending the life of innocent people. And this case is just mind boggling. I am definitely arm chair quarterbacking because I don't have access to the exhibits and testimony. But it seems like this is a clear case of their being enough doubt to halt an execution. Ugh.

And the Supreme Court refused to halt it. We need to make sure we don't have a conservative majority on the court. This is just one of the hundreds of examples why.
The next president seats the Supreme court. Guess which of the two remaining democratic candidates supports the death penalty?
 
I thought we were discussing sort-of the whole history of the last 4 years and the 2020 campaign not just the last 24 hours.

I understand and think you are making good points.

My point about addressing it head on in the media and accepting a news cycle or two about his supporters are toxic would be more than worth it to marginalize those people. Calling it out wihtin your camp isn't good enough and doesn't tell the people who are not on social media counting the percentage of misogynistic toxic assholes as small and irrelevant that you care about them. Not addressing it in the media they pay attention to tells them that we don't think this is a big deal so it isn't even if it is a big deal to you. It was the wrong message and Bernie should've ate shit on it far earlier than after super Tuesday imo.
In a debate in front of everybody: Sanders Addresses "Bernie Bro" Problem: "Disowns" The "Viciousness And Ugliness On The Internet"
 
Now, the "this isn't about me, it's about you" part is something all candidates share. #NotMeUs is a noble sentiment. Disowning viciousness and ugliness on the internet is an honorable position. I think Bernie Sanders is, personally, a man of some integrity who has a clear set of values and beliefs. But while he places enormous value on issues of justice, I don't find him to be a man, on a personal level, who exudes "empathy and kindness and generosity."

Now let me stop here and acknowledge that I have heard plenty of stories about Bernie personally driving people over the border to get healthcare in Canada. I've heard how he is a decent and ethical man. I'm not suggesting that he is a bad person, but that his leadership style is not constructed with WARMTH as one of its pillars. That's not a moral failing, it's just a characteristic of him. His attitude is more of a no-nonsense, driven focus on results. That's fine. He doesn't see the need to get touchy-feely about compassion, because to him the need for it is self-evident and not worth wasting the breath on when the real issues (to him) are economic ones, because that's what is inhibiting our society's ability to be compassionate in the first place.
Okay, man. I don't think I could disagree with you more on this but I respect your position.
 
He doesn't see the need to get touchy-feely about compassion, because to him the need for it is self-evident and not worth wasting the breath on when the real issues (to him) are economic ones, because that's what is inhibiting our society's ability to be compassionate in the first place.

Yep and sometimes a politician needs to genuinely express that compassion in a way that people can touch and feel.... that compassion has to be about their stories and their narratives in the language that they use. The connections between their stories and your world view needs to be made for them.

The failure to do so more holistically isn't limited to the Sanders campaign it's just one reason why more people are not see the link between progressive policies and their present and future well-being

You seem to find a way to sum up things i'm thinking and trying to express better than I ever could.
Thank you.
 


Now trump says we have shut down Coronavirus in the United Sates. Experts are saying that is simply not true.
 
Like Richard Thompson said, I'll always be a man who's open to persuasion.

I just gotta take a break first.
I understand what you're saying. I think there are probably differences in how we view empathy in this context and its usefulness, and definitely in how you and I and every individual is looking for different things from their representatives. There is no shortage of clips from town halls, meetings, etc., where Bernie's listened patiently to someone's heartbreaking story about how (to pick one example, the one I keep blatting on about) the health care system has failed them or someone they know. A mother's child dies from rationing insulin; she cries when retelling it, and he offers a hug or his shoulder to cry on. That, to me, is sympathy--like, the bare minimum a human being can offer when in this situation. That's obviously necessary. Some people want or need only that, and I get that, too. People need comfort in hard times and they get it from different sources. Driving someone to Canada to buy insulin, to me, is beyond that. That's being sorry for the situation a person is in, identifying the problem, identifying a quick and easy solution to it, but then coming back and trying to find a sustainable, long-term solution, too. That's empathy. That's someone who's not just willing to offer condolences or thoughts and prayers for someone's avoidable plight, but someone who will work to avoid it happening again to others. I can see how some would say he's too focussed on the nitty gritty of "why" things are the way they are by continuing to come back to economic reasons, and that coming across as cold. I don't see it that way, but again, I want and need different things from my politicians (and agree with most of his diagnoses for problems such as the above).

I keep trying to take breaks too but I keep sucking myself back in. I think most (or all) of us in here are on the same page in that we want a more just world where people can live with dignity but it's (obviously) very hard to come to a consensus as to how best to accomplish that.
 
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