Political Discussion

A lot of Sanders' supporters are pretty dumb, and are the vocal minority in a lot of the cases.
To be polite: not cool. The majority has been in favor of slavery, has been anti-abortion and anti-civil rights. Being in the minority does not mean being wrong.
Which option over the next 4 years will be worse?
IMO it will better for the country to have the incumbent as President for 4 more years. Things need to get worse in order to get better. Status quo gets us to a President in favor of progressive change faster than 8 years of a milquetoast President followed by 8 years of a Republican. Waiting 16+ years for progressive change is not acceptable. The long game matters.
 
To be polite: not cool. The majority has been in favor of slavery, has been anti-abortion and anti-civil rights. Being in the minority does not mean being wrong.

IMO it will better for the country to have the incumbent as President for 4 more years. Things need to get worse in order to get better. Status quo gets us to a President in favor of progressive change faster than 8 years of a milquetoast President followed by 8 years of a Republican. Waiting 16+ years for progressive change is not acceptable. The long game matters.
I respectfully disagree. There are a lot of folks out there that do not have the privilege to wait 4 more years under the current regime only to hope something better might comes along. Once this country goes full on Authoritarianism, it will much harder to get opposition leadership elected let alone a revolutionary.
 
IMO it will better for the country to have the incumbent as President for 4 more years. Things need to get worse in order to get better. Status quo gets us to a President in favor of progressive change faster than 8 years of a milquetoast President followed by 8 years of a Republican. Waiting 16+ years for progressive change is not acceptable. The long game matters.
You're going to be waiting a lot longer than 16 years for the Supreme Court to be anything close to moderate again if Trump gets another term, though.
 
To be polite: not cool. The majority has been in favor of slavery, has been anti-abortion and anti-civil rights. Being in the minority does not mean being wrong.

IMO it will better for the country to have the incumbent as President for 4 more years. Things need to get worse in order to get better. Status quo gets us to a President in favor of progressive change faster than 8 years of a milquetoast President followed by 8 years of a Republican. Waiting 16+ years for progressive change is not acceptable. The long game matters.
to clarify what I meant when I said pretty dumb meaning that Sanders supporters who won’t vote for Biden and will either vote 3rd/Trump/not vote are very dumb.

also the vocal minority are those who are saying loud and proud that they’re not voting Biden when a vast majority of Bernie supporters (like myself) will hold my nose and vote Biden. Minority/majority in relation to Bernie supporters not all voters. I’m not excited about voting Biden. but I’m going to do it because it means Supreme Court seats and basically what everyone said above.
 
I guess not. Can you explain to me how exactly every delegate makes a difference at this stage in the primary race? I genuinely do not understand.

It's somewhat nuanced but I'll try and be succinct.

Basically, hitting the 15% mark in every state matters for Bernie because it impacts whether his delegates attend state level conventions. Which means his progressive base gets shut out of policy AND rule making not only on a state (NY) level but even a county and district level in some states. Not only that, but it can impact what candidates or issues even get on the ballot in some cases via the way rules are implemented and definitely what leaders are elected within a state's party leadership.

So yeah, it's a very big deal (i.e. blow) as far as the ability to enact progressive change in NY on a local level. It also impacts the convention and negotiations that take place there. For example, it was the demands of Bernie delegates in 2016 that resulted in the removal of super delegates from the initial count. That's just one example of many. If the room is a bunch of Biden people? It could very easily swing back in the other direction.
 
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Purely from a political standpoint the Biden accusation is the fucking worst, the evidence is not rock solid but is plausible. If it was a slam dunk then Biden would resign in shame and there would be an open convention to determine the nominee or if it was some obvious Project Veritas type bullshit it could be rightfly ignored but as it stands now these accusations can’t be proven with any certainty but also not outright dismissed either. Leaving the electorate with an awful “he said, she said” conundrum which will allow the issue to linger on.
 
Purely from a political standpoint the Biden accusation is the fucking worst, the evidence is not rock solid but is plausible. If it was a slam dunk then Biden would resign in shame and there would be an open convention to determine the nominee or if it was some obvious Project Veritas type bullshit it could be rightfly ignored but as it stands now these accusations can’t be proven with any certainty but also not outright dismissed either. Leaving the electorate with an awful “he said, she said” conundrum which will allow the issue to linger on.
Once Trump did all he did with no repercussions then there’s no way Biden would back down. If it was Biden vs. Romney back in 2012 then it’d be so different. I still remember how “binders full of women” was such a major blow to Romney’s campaign. But if that were Trump it would barely make a line in the news.
 
Just so I understand you correctly, because I will be voting but not for Trump or Biden, I'm "very dumb"?
LOL! Amash or Ventura 2020!!! The race to be 2020’s Ralph Nader or Jill Stein is heating up. I am sure Trump will appreciate all their hard work.

Mr. Rant D you reside in Oregon good sir; thank god your vote for Prez won’t matter anyways (for the record; mine won’t either).
 
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Hey, let me chime in on what's going down today in poli-

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Ahhhhh, nope. No, nevermind, I'm fine...
 
IMO it will better for the country to have the incumbent as President for 4 more years. Things need to get worse in order to get better. Status quo gets us to a President in favor of progressive change faster than 8 years of a milquetoast President followed by 8 years of a Republican. Waiting 16+ years for progressive change is not acceptable. The long game matters.

There are some arguments for US exceptionalism in this but the international evidence runs completely counter to this approach. The opposition is not a static target and this argument can be framed by people to read as "we only have appeal when your life is in the shitter" which isn't the stirring message of hope that has people crossing over for.
 
There are some arguments for US exceptionalism in this but the international evidence runs completely counter to this approach. The opposition is not a static target and this argument can be framed by people to read as "we only have appeal when your life is in the shitter" which isn't the stirring message of hope that has people crossing over for.

The book “This is an uprising” looks at case studies in revolt throughout the world and determines that @High Rant District’s assertion is the correct one.

The problem is that if Trump gets any more Supreme Court noms, (to quote Metallica) nothing else matters
 
The book “This is an uprising” looks at case studies in revolt throughout the world and determines that @High Rant District’s assertion is the correct one.

Quite a bit has happened since 2016 when it was published for me to doubt that. It's not a revolt, it's an election and, unless you win it, you don't get to enact anything; the impetus lies with the people that do. The Supreme Ct business is a case in point. For years, across the world, right of centre parties have won elections because their methodology is utterly straightforward- they do what they need to win and work out the details later. That's it. It doesn't matter how noble your plans are. If you can't compromise to win, you will generally lose to people who can.

But what would I know. I only live in a country where the opposition has just spaffed five precious years in a self-congratulatory circle jerk around an idiot, allowing a selection of terrible people who's sole merit was coming across fractionally better than the idiot (and who enacted the electoral plan above) almost free reign.
 
Quite a bit has happened since 2016 when it was published for me to doubt that. It's not a revolt, it's an election and, unless you win it, you don't get to enact anything; the impetus lies with the people that do. The Supreme Ct business is a case in point. For years, across the world, right of centre parties have won elections because their methodology is utterly straightforward- they do what they need to win and work out the details later. That's it. It doesn't matter how noble your plans are. If you can't compromise to win, you will generally lose to people who can.

But what would I know. I only live in a country where the opposition has just spaffed five precious years in a self-congratulatory circle jerk around an idiot, allowing a selection of terrible people who's sole merit was coming across fractionally better than the idiot (and who enacted the electoral plan above) almost free reign.

Yeah, well the right is also mostly aligned in its agenda where as the center left continuously undermines the progressive left every chance it gets because they'd rather a loon right winger be in office that somebody who will actually fight for working people.


Also, I don't think post-2016 has done much of anything to challenge the assertions of "This is an Uprising". The reality is that the financial well being of the upper middle class has only improved during that time frame. It's part of why Bernie's campaign faltered and is almost case in point in regards to the books thesis.
 
Yeah, well the right is also mostly aligned in its agenda where as the center left continuously undermines the progressive left every chance it gets because they'd rather a loon right winger be in office that somebody who will actually fight for working people.


The 'report' (and I use the word in the loosest possible sense) is a farce. One of its most singular feats is to essentially ignore that Corbyn did (far) worse in 2019 with a loyal coterie surrounding him than he did in 2017 when he was supposedly being undermined right, left and centre.

Those two UK elections ought to the something that progressives across the world should be picking the data apart to avoid making the same mistakes. Anecdotes are not data but I can tell you that in 2017, I voted for Labour. I did so because I felt them winning overall was an impossibility but there was a chance that my constituency MP could be unseated. Across the UK, thousands of people- particularly those keen to try and halt or at least arrest Brexit- did the same. This phenomenon of Liberal Democrats and pro EU Tories going with the lesser of two evils, combined with the worst Conservative campaign in history, meant Labour came unusually close, far surpassing expectations.

Labour's leadership team proceeded to draw a huge series of wrong conclusions about 2017. My vote was loaned to them, they decided to bank it- and the thousands of others. As it became clear that their Brexit strategy made as much sense as an episode of Twin Peaks, the pro EU contingent left, while the pro Brexit side coalesced around the Conservatives (although, Labour were saved in some North Eastern seats by votes being split to the Brexit Party). Beyond Brexit, Labour was still a shitshow. I quote the right honorable @Joe Mac from earlier in this very thread;

With all due respect I know Britain and I know the party I supported when I lived there. Corbyn was the architect of the the ideological purity, he didn’t deal with the antisemitism and did not, and never has, given a damn about the traditional northern worker. He completely empowered the rise of the angry arrogant ideologically pure men (and yes they were overwhelmingly men) who felt it was their duty to “purge” the party of less radical candidates, many of whom were women or minorities.

Their manifesto was shite; a smorgasbord of committee thinking that promised the Earth but somehow maintained it didn't cost it. Throughout the run in, we were bombarded by the idea we were somehow obligated to vote Labour because their sandwich had less dogshit in it than the Conservative one did. On the day of the election, despite despairing that their leader had stumbled over searching questions like "what is a woman?", I voted for the Liberal Democrats. I have no guilt in this- such was the collapse in the Labour vote here, the Lib Dem vote added to the Labour one doesn't add up to the Conservative majority.

Now, as I said this morning, US exceptionalism grants you a two party system of unusual durability. There are no Liberal Democrats or Scottish or Welsh nationalists to muddy the waters for the DNC. A degree of compromise with those tedious centrists could see them over the line. Or, they can be the proverbial two bald men fighting over a comb while the ridiculously coiffured one takes another win. Letting him do so in the belief it will be easier to win next time strikes me as geniunely suicidal. The last ninety days alone should be enough to suggest the next four years are unknowable.
 
The 'report' (and I use the word in the loosest possible sense) is a farce. One of its most singular feats is to essentially ignore that Corbyn did (far) worse in 2019 with a loyal coterie surrounding him than he did in 2017 when he was supposedly being undermined right, left and centre.

Those two UK elections ought to the something that progressives across the world should be picking the data apart to avoid making the same mistakes. Anecdotes are not data but I can tell you that in 2017, I voted for Labour. I did so because I felt them winning overall was an impossibility but there was a chance that my constituency MP could be unseated. Across the UK, thousands of people- particularly those keen to try and halt or at least arrest Brexit- did the same. This phenomenon of Liberal Democrats and pro EU Tories going with the lesser of two evils, combined with the worst Conservative campaign in history, meant Labour came unusually close, far surpassing expectations.

Labour's leadership team proceeded to draw a huge series of wrong conclusions about 2017. My vote was loaned to them, they decided to bank it- and the thousands of others. As it became clear that their Brexit strategy made as much sense as an episode of Twin Peaks, the pro EU contingent left, while the pro Brexit side coalesced around the Conservatives (although, Labour were saved in some North Eastern seats by votes being split to the Brexit Party). Beyond Brexit, Labour was still a shitshow. I quote the right honorable @Joe Mac from earlier in this very thread;



Their manifesto was shite; a smorgasbord of committee thinking that promised the Earth but somehow maintained it didn't cost it. Throughout the run in, we were bombarded by the idea we were somehow obligated to vote Labour because their sandwich had less dogshit in it than the Conservative one did. On the day of the election, despite despairing that their leader had stumbled over searching questions like "what is a woman?", I voted for the Liberal Democrats. I have no guilt in this- such was the collapse in the Labour vote here, the Lib Dem vote added to the Labour one doesn't add up to the Conservative majority.

Now, as I said this morning, US exceptionalism grants you a two party system of unusual durability. There are no Liberal Democrats or Scottish or Welsh nationalists to muddy the waters for the DNC. A degree of compromise with those tedious centrists could see them over the line. Or, they can be the proverbial two bald men fighting over a comb while the ridiculously coiffured one takes another win. Letting him do so in the belief it will be easier to win next time strikes me as geniunely suicidal. The last ninety days alone should be enough to suggest the next four years are unknowable.

Yep, the rise of the SNP in Scotland and the radicalisation of the north of England by basically ignoring it means that anyone who believes that you can win a British general election with a set of policies written by the type of students who used to be in the Socialist Workers Party is genuinely out of their minds. The only way to push through a socialist agenda in the current British climate is through the centre left, not the hard left. I’m ideologically quite far to the left but I understand that compromise is the only way of getting the things that I believe in the most through.
 
The 'report' (and I use the word in the loosest possible sense) is a farce. One of its most singular feats is to essentially ignore that Corbyn did (far) worse in 2019 with a loyal coterie surrounding him than he did in 2017 when he was supposedly being undermined right, left and centre.

Those two UK elections ought to the something that progressives across the world should be picking the data apart to avoid making the same mistakes. Anecdotes are not data but I can tell you that in 2017, I voted for Labour. I did so because I felt them winning overall was an impossibility but there was a chance that my constituency MP could be unseated. Across the UK, thousands of people- particularly those keen to try and halt or at least arrest Brexit- did the same. This phenomenon of Liberal Democrats and pro EU Tories going with the lesser of two evils, combined with the worst Conservative campaign in history, meant Labour came unusually close, far surpassing expectations.

Labour's leadership team proceeded to draw a huge series of wrong conclusions about 2017. My vote was loaned to them, they decided to bank it- and the thousands of others. As it became clear that their Brexit strategy made as much sense as an episode of Twin Peaks, the pro EU contingent left, while the pro Brexit side coalesced around the Conservatives (although, Labour were saved in some North Eastern seats by votes being split to the Brexit Party). Beyond Brexit, Labour was still a shitshow. I quote the right honorable @Joe Mac from earlier in this very thread;



Their manifesto was shite; a smorgasbord of committee thinking that promised the Earth but somehow maintained it didn't cost it. Throughout the run in, we were bombarded by the idea we were somehow obligated to vote Labour because their sandwich had less dogshit in it than the Conservative one did. On the day of the election, despite despairing that their leader had stumbled over searching questions like "what is a woman?", I voted for the Liberal Democrats. I have no guilt in this- such was the collapse in the Labour vote here, the Lib Dem vote added to the Labour one doesn't add up to the Conservative majority.

Now, as I said this morning, US exceptionalism grants you a two party system of unusual durability. There are no Liberal Democrats or Scottish or Welsh nationalists to muddy the waters for the DNC. A degree of compromise with those tedious centrists could see them over the line. Or, they can be the proverbial two bald men fighting over a comb while the ridiculously coiffured one takes another win. Letting him do so in the belief it will be easier to win next time strikes me as geniunely suicidal. The last ninety days alone should be enough to suggest the next four years are unknowable.

It’s a farce because you say so? I in no way rebut most of what you are saying about Corbynn as a candidate. That does that take away from the fact that your media and many centrist figures spent substantial energy undermining him while knowing Johnson was the potential consequence. Same goes for Sanders (and it went into overdrive post-Neveda).

And frankly, your stance that your vote was a “loan” while chiding people who are livid that Democrats want our vote without even given us a seat at the table is another blatant example of the ways in which the center drowns us all in their hypocrisy.

Progressives have voted for the lesser of two evils for decades while economic equality, civil liberties and anti-trust laws were flushed down the toilet. Meanwhile, the same white suburbanites who are now angry that leftists want Biden to earn their vote are the same people who were threatening to stay at home if it was Trump versus Sanders.

I’ve said many time here that I’m voting Biden even though I don’t have to as somebody who lives in a solidly blue state. But damned if people like you don’t make that stance difficult.
 
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It’s a farce because you say so? I in no way rebut most of what you are saying about Corbynn as a candidate. That does that take away from the fact that your media and many centrist figures spent substantial energy undermining him while knowing Johnson was the potential consequence. Same goes for Sanders (and it went into overdrive post-Neveda) though he is far from as leftist as Corbyn.

The report is written by a group of people who are determinedly trying to distract from;

- Their party reaching the point where it's being investigated for institutional racism.
- That they presided over its worst defeat in nearly a century.

It's like Endgame- in re-writing the 2017 election, everyone ignores the 2019 one. It is not an unbiased take on the actions of the Labour party.

And frankly, your stance that your vote was a “loan” while chiding people who are livid that Democrats want our vote without even given us a seat at the table is another blatant example of the ways in which the center drowns us all in their hypocrisy.

Progressives have voted for the lesser of two evils for decades while economic equality, civil liberties and anti-trust laws were flushed down the toilet. Meanwhile, the same white suburbanites who are now angry that leftists want Biden to earn their vote are the same people who were threatening to stay at home if it was Trump versus Sanders.

I’ve said many time here that I’m voting Biden even though I don’t have to as somebody who lives in a solidly blue state. But damned if people like you don’t make that stance difficult

For clarity, I've voted in elections since 2001 (my first) thus;

2001 Labour
2005 Labour
2010 Lib Dem
2015 Lib Dem
2017 Labour
2019 Lib Dem

In that time, my views haven't significantly changed- the parties have. In all those elections bar one, I've gone for soft left, centrist policies. In 2017, I voted away from the centre on an unscheduled election fought on a single issue- the very definition of a loaned vote.

For further clarity, my original post was in response to this post, not one of yours.

IMO it will better for the country to have the incumbent as President for 4 more years. Things need to get worse in order to get better. Status quo gets us to a President in favor of progressive change faster than 8 years of a milquetoast President followed by 8 years of a Republican. Waiting 16+ years for progressive change is not acceptable. The long game matters.

This approach is palpably not the same as yours and, from the perspective of political results of late, it's all kinds of wrong. You're holding your nose and working for a win. That isn't.
 
Yep, the rise of the SNP in Scotland and the radicalisation of the north of England by basically ignoring it means that anyone who believes that you can win a British general election with a set of policies written by the type of students who used to be in the Socialist Workers Party is genuinely out of their minds. The only way to push through a socialist agenda in the current British climate is through the centre left, not the hard left. I’m ideologically quite far to the left but I understand that compromise is the only way of getting the things that I believe in the most through.


To frame it differently... Sanders is substantially to the right of Corbyn and much more my speed. But I have more in common with Corybn than Biden. You all need our votes too. And the center left has done jack shit to advance our causes over the past 40 years (whether that be in Britain or the US). So to say that the center is the route to progressive change... well I reject that thesis.

 
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