Political Discussion

[Twentytwo]

I'm not saying they are wrong, but I find a lot of reports on economic indicators to be hyperbolic. We will see though.

It is about time to repeat the cycle of the last 40 years. Republican destroy economy, democrats come into to clean up the Republicans shit.

 

[Dtknuckles]

It is about time to repeat the cycle of the last 40 years. Republican destroy economy, democrats come into to clean up the Republicans shit.

I've heard this before and it certainly seems to the pattern in my lifetime, but I wonder how much that holds up under more than just the typical pop analysis. I honestly haven't read anything that points one way or the other more than just a meme or someone repeating that pattern.

 

[Twentytwo]

I've heard this before and it certainly seems to the pattern in my lifetime, but I wonder how much that holds up under more than just the typical pop analysis. I honestly haven't read anything that points one way or the other more than just a meme or someone repeating that pattern.

I don’t have any statistical analysis, all I know is the last four recessions started under Republican presidents.

 

[Sonicpharmacist]

Funny story, when I was in high school I had a couple long guns behind the seat of my truck. Lots of other guys did too. I even recall the principal admiring a newly acquired rifle of a student in the parking lot one day. Nobody ever got shot or felt fear that such a thing would happen. I’m not sure if there were any guys who didn’t carry a pocket knife.

With experiences like that it is hard to convince me that guns are actually the problem.

Maybe this will help.

I’ve covered gun violence for years. The solutions aren’t a big mystery.

America can prevent shootings. But it has to come to grips with the problem.

www.vox.com

 

[Chucktshoes]

Maybe this will help.

I’ve covered gun violence for years. The solutions aren’t a big mystery.

America can prevent shootings. But it has to come to grips with the problem.

www.vox.com

Vox isn’t a legitimate news site. They’re Breitbart for the lefties.

 

[Melt Face Molly Drop]

What’s changed?

The more prominent presence of the internet, mostly.

 

[Chucktshoes]

The more prominent presence of the internet, mostly.

This is something that we absolutely agree on. I really do think that in the not too distant future we will come to view the way in which we currently interact with the internet in much the same way we viewed smoking prior to January of 1964.

The internet has provided wonderful things, but I’m just not sure the juice is worth the squeeze.

 

[Sonicpharmacist]

Vox isn’t a legitimate news site. They’re Breitbart for the lefties.

Maybe try arguing their points instead of proclaiming “fake news”.

 

[Melt Face Molly Drop]

This is something that we absolutely agree on. I really do think that in the not too distant future we will come to view the way in which we currently interact with the internet in much the same way we viewed smoking prior to January of 1964.

The internet has provided wonderful things, but I’m just not sure the juice is worth the squeeze.

Agreed. There's so much information to process nowadays. Our interactions with people are no longer limited to face to face or phone calls where you talk to the person you meant to call and nothing more. Previously you had to pick up a newspaper to get offended by a stranger. Even then the arguments were much more thought out.

And we are now living in a world with whole generations that truly don't understand each other because the gap was increased so much due to the internet, this invisible void that, when put in the wrong hands, can be used for evil.

The sad part is, many of those politicians are part of that gap, so they reach for the closest tangible thing: guns. And I don't blame them, because how do you cure something like the internet? It's scary as hell, and the greatest minds won't be able to figure it out for years, until we look back on this through a different lens, like you said.

 

[Dtknuckles]

Funny story, when I was in high school I had a couple long guns behind the seat of my truck. Lots of other guys did too. I even recall the principal admiring a newly acquired rifle of a student in the parking lot one day. Nobody ever got shot or felt fear that such a thing would happen. I’m not sure if there were any guys who didn’t carry a pocket knife.

With experiences like that it is hard to convince me that guns are actually the problem.

The argument that you are making, guns don’t kill people, people don’t kill people is a red herring. People who advocate for gun control do not think that. What they do believe is that common sense gun laws can mitigate the damage guns can to society.

 

[Chucktshoes]

Maybe try arguing their points instead of proclaiming “fake news”.

Maybe you should try using folks other than partisan hacks who repeat lies like “70% of guns in Mexico come from the US” to support your positions.

-Edited to add-

In the modern era of click driven media, journalistic standards have gone by the wayside in favor of choir preaching and partisan hackery. It’s reached a point where most “news” is 90 percent bullshit designed to keep the emotions high so folks stay engaged and increasing ad impressions. I hold sites like Vox and Breitbart in the same contempt. They don’t give anyone anything close to a semblance of truth, they just tickle ears by telling folks what they want to hear so that they can feel righteous and know that the folks on the other team are wrong.

There’s nothing of value to be gained there.

 

[Dtknuckles]

Maybe you should try using folks other than partisan hacks who repeat lies like “70% of guns in Mexico come from the US” to support your positions.

-Edited to add-

In the modern era of click driven media, journalistic standards have gone by the wayside in favor of choir preaching and partisan hackery. It’s reached a point where most “news” is 90 percent bullshit designed to keep the emotions high so folks stay engaged and increasing ad impressions. I hold sites like Vox and Breitbart in the same contempt. They don’t give anyone anything close to a semblance of truth, they just tickle ears by telling folks what they want to hear so that they can feel righteous and know that the folks on the other team are wrong.

There’s nothing of value to be gained there.

So where do the gun in Mexico come from? How is that factually inaccurate?

I just looked on Wikipedia and the number of arms manufacturers that are American companies dwarfs the others. I know that arms is a very broad category, but...

 

[Dtknuckles]

The more prominent presence of the internet, mostly.

Like I said about the economy stuff a little ways back. How do we even begin to prove that?

The whole back in the day argument doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Even if we could some now measure that, how the hell could we reverse engineer society a whole society to make guns ownership safer?

 

[Melt Face Molly Drop]

Like I said about the economy stuff a little ways back. How do we even begin to prove that?

The whole back in the day argument doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Even if we could some now measure that, how the hell could we reverse engineer society a whole society to make guns ownership safer?

You can't, but we really need to put all the cards on the table for a more accurate analysis. Because if we're talking about mass shootings since Columbine 20(!) years ago, not much headway has been made. It's only gotten worse. Is that because of an increase in access to guns, an increase in media's coverage of these tragedies, political parties getting in eachother's way or something else entirely?

For the record, I don't own nor have ever shot a gun (besides skeet once).

 

[Chucktshoes]

So where do the gun in Mexico come from? How is that factually inaccurate?

That figure comes from the number of guns submitted to the US government by Mexico for tracing, not the entire number of guns seized in crimes in Mexico. The Mexican government only submits guns to the ATF for tracing that have markings on them that indicate they possibly originated in the US. Of those submitted for eTrace, 70% +/- are positively traced to the US. The vast majority of the guns seized are never submitted to for tracing because the markings indicate they originated with Mexico’s police, armed forces or from other various points of origin. The actual number of seized guns that are positively identified as having a US origin is around 12%.

The “Iron Pipeline” isn’t real, but it sounds real good to folks already inclined to believe in it.

 

[Dtknuckles]

You can't, but we really need to put all the cards on the table for a more accurate analysis. Because if we're talking about mass shootings since Columbine 20(!) years ago, not much headway has been made. It's only gotten worse. Is that because of an increase in access to guns, an increase in media's coverage of these tragedies, political parties getting in eachother's way or something else entirely?

For the record, I don't own nor have ever shot a gun (besides skeet once).

The whole intervention would require a massively coordinated study where both of the sides of the debate acted in good faith. Yea I don’t see that happening.

Yea maybe it’s a mental health issue. Than maybe don’t sit on your thumbs when it’s time do something. Limit their access to weaponry.

Also I don’t limit the danger that guns pose to just mass shootings. The chance that you will get killed in one is very small even in America. There is just plain old murder, accidents, and one of the biggest categories suicide. All of these drop dramatically when access is limited in society.

 

[Melt Face Molly Drop]

The whole intervention would require a massively coordinated study where both of the sides of the debate acted in good faith. Yea I don’t see that happening.

Yea maybe it’s a mental health issue. Than maybe don’t sit on your thumbs when it’s time do something. Limit their access to weaponry.

Also I don’t limit the danger that guns pose to just mass shootings. The chance that you will get killed in one is very small even in America. There is just plain old murder, accidents, and one of the biggest categories suicide. All of these drop dramatically when access is limited in society.

Yeah, and when it feels like neither side wants to give an inch, it's a frustrating thing to experience in the present.

 

[Dtknuckles]

That figure comes from the number of guns submitted to the US government by Mexico for tracing, not the entire number of guns seized in crimes in Mexico. The Mexican government only submits guns to the ATF for tracing that have markings on them that indicate they possibly originated in the US. Of those submitted for eTrace, 70% +/- are positively traced to the US. The vast majority of the guns seized are never submitted to for tracing because the markings indicate they originated with Mexico’s police, armed forces or from other various points of origin. The actual number of seized guns that are positively identified as having a US origin is around 12%.

The “Iron Pipeline” isn’t real, but it sounds real good to folks already inclined to believe in it.

So where do those guns that aren’t traced get made? How did the Mexican police get a hold of arms? I’m assuming there are some pretty strict tracking regulation regarding the arm trade?

 

[Chucktshoes]

So where do those guns that aren’t traced get made? How did the Mexican police get a hold of arms? I’m assuming there are some pretty strict tracking regulation regarding the arm trade?

I imagine in various countries around the world. Guns are made all over the world, not just in the US. I personally own guns manufactured in several countries on multiple continents. My favorites come from Belgium, but I like the German, Italian, Israeli, Russian, Portuguese, Turkish, Czech and Brazilian ones I have as well. For the record, I have a bunch of US made ones too of course. There are a couple of British and French guns I want, but I haven’t gotten around to getting them yet.

Well, police in Mexico are routinely armed (for good reason) and once again, I imagine their weapons are bought on contract from potentially multiple places around the world. I honestly don’t know the ins and outs of how they source weapons for official government use. However, the availability of firearms to US civilians wouldn’t have anything to do with that as I don’t see the Federales sending someone up to Billy Bob’s Guns N Gear to buy gear for the station. Also, if the Mexican government buys AR-15s/M-16s on an importation contract and then corrupt individuals within it sell those guns to the cartels, I don’t see how that’s the fault of the US gun owner.

ITAR covers the exportation of arms out of the US, but those regulations are for the safeguarding of sensitive technologies to hopefully prevent our own troops from facing our own weapons. The international trade of arms doesn’t have a single effective governing body of regulations. So it’s a lot more open than you think.

 

[Sonicpharmacist]

Maybe you should try using folks other than partisan hacks who repeat lies like “70% of guns in Mexico come from the US” to support your positions.

-Edited to add-

In the modern era of click driven media, journalistic standards have gone by the wayside in favor of choir preaching and partisan hackery. It’s reached a point where most “news” is 90 percent bullshit designed to keep the emotions high so folks stay engaged and increasing ad impressions. I hold sites like Vox and Breitbart in the same contempt. They don’t give anyone anything close to a semblance of truth, they just tickle ears by telling folks what they want to hear so that they can feel righteous and know that the folks on the other team are wrong.

There’s nothing of value to be gained there.

There are actual links to actual data embedded in the site, Chuck. Your flippant attitude is pissing me off.