Political Discussion

[jaycee]

This backlash started, not with CRT, but with Common Core requirements.
When they saw how disastrous things like sight words were and as for common core math, well, here's a video to show some fun that parents deal with:


Not just the way common core requires math to be done, but the way they skip around from fractions to multiplication, all I see it doing is confusing my children. Sight words have been proven to be less effective than phonics especially in children with special needs and/or cognitive delay. And more often than not, we end up reteaching kids how to do the math that we learned. They understand the math that we learned much better than the math they are learning in school.

Like I said, I'm okay with us looking at our history book and pointing out that America was built on the backs of slaves that got nothing from it. I noticed that when my kiddo was quarantined that they really did a lot to beef up the curriculum around Native Americans, and I got to learn a lot more about the native groups that lived here prior to Europeans coming in. I think that is a really cool addition to the curriculum.
The problem I see is that while they are killing it in the social studies area, they don't even come close to effective math and reading curriculums. Most of the parents that I know have a much bigger problem with the way they are teaching math, than them teaching CRT. And this is where I get really cranky, because often times when people report that parents were seeing what their kids were being taught and they got upset, I really do wonder how many parents were getting upset over other aspects of the curriculum, but CRT makes a way better story than parents being mad about how kids are being taught to divide.

 

[RenegadeMonster]

So, apparently I learned Old Math in the 90's.

I never saw anything like New Math with all the 10's and 100's. And Common Core just boggles my mind. Isn't that teach people to be very inefficient with doing math by hand and could end up hurting productivity in the real world?

Edit:

Another thing I find horrifying about common core is the requirement to show your work. I have heard from co-workers whose kids didn't understand common core and that they taught them how to do the math the way they learned it.

And when their kids preformed the math and answered correctly using the "Old Math" method because they better understood it, their answers were marked wrong or only got partial credit for not showing their work in the common core method.

 

[Dtknuckles]

Remote learning during the pandemic is one of the main reasons critical race theory is such a hot button topic today. Parents were seeing what their children were being taught in school and it horrified many of them.

One example is the Rockwood School District in Missouri. They do not teach Critical Race Theory, but they due try to include diversity and inclusion in their lesson plans.

And when Republican parents saw what their kids were learning they accused to school of teaching Critical Race Theory, Marxism and Liberal Propaganda. Several very heated school board meetings ensured. Republican parents do not want their children "fed this propaganda" because they are young and impressionable. These heated school board meetings made it to the national spotlight and was what triggered Missouri's state legislature to pass a ban on teaching Critical Race Theory. Which severely handicapped teaching diversity and inclusions and things like Jim Crow Laws because that would be in violation of the vague language of the law the state passed to ban Critical Race Theory.

The school district was trying to include diversity and inclusion and not feed the whitewashed history many of the school children's parents learned. However, with the CRT ban and it's vague language, school curriculums unfortunately will shift to be more whitewashed than they were a generation ago.

And this is true for most Republican states rushing to pass through bans on CRT. Tennessee for example passed a law so vague that it pretty much bans them teaching any book by a black author. If suppression, slavery or anything of the like comes up the book is banned. Teaching about Jim Crow laws would also be illegal in Tennessee under the law they passed.

My wife and I had a talk yesterday that ended in a decision to look outside of our area because of the lack of diversity in the schools where we live. There is a complete lack of discussion of other cultures. It even took my son’s Chilean born Spanish speaking teacher a couple of weeks to recognize that a student in her class spoke no English. My wife and I knew it after observing a couple of classes.

 

[nolalady]

So, apparently I learned Old Math in the 90's.

I never saw anything like New Math with all the 10's and 100's. And Common Core just boggles my mind. Isn't that teach people to be very inefficient with doing math by hand and could end up hurting productivity in the real world?

This is the only objective that seems to align to the reality.

To give them credit, they did try to base this on how people who are really good at math think. When I think about math, I think in pictures. And I read that many people who do well in math, often think of it pictorially. But they are attempting to break down math problems and try to get people to think about them the way people with "math brains" think of it. The fallacy here being that regular people should think of math problems the way my weird ass brain sees them. It's like trying to force a square peg into a round hole.

 

[Dtknuckles]

My wife and I had a talk yesterday that ended in a decision to look outside of our area because of the lack of diversity in the schools where we live. There is a complete lack of discussion of other cultures. It even took my son’s Chilean born Spanish speaking teacher a couple of weeks to recognize that a student in her class spoke no English. My wife and I knew it after observing a couple of classes.

@nolalady youll like the fact that they wanted to put a kid in SDC class who had no English experience. My wife works as a contractor for the district and put a stop to it , but it took standing up to a bunch of people who don’t understand bilingual assessment.

 

[jaycee]

This backlash started, not with CRT, but with Common Core requirements.
When they saw how disastrous things like sight words were and as for common core math, well, here's a video to show some fun that parents deal with:


Not just the way common core requires math to be done, but the way they skip around from fractions to multiplication, all I see it doing is confusing my children. Sight words have been proven to be less effective than phonics especially in children with special needs and/or cognitive delay. And more often than not, we end up reteaching kids how to do the math that we learned. They understand the math that we learned much better than the math they are learning in school.

Like I said, I'm okay with us looking at our history book and pointing out that America was built on the backs of slaves that got nothing from it. I noticed that when my kiddo was quarantined that they really did a lot to beef up the curriculum around Native Americans, and I got to learn a lot more about the native groups that lived here prior to Europeans coming in. I think that is a really cool addition to the curriculum.
The problem I see is that while they are killing it in the social studies area, they don't even come close to effective math and reading curriculums. Most of the parents that I know have a much bigger problem with the way they are teaching math, than them teaching CRT. And this is where I get really cranky, because often times when people report that parents were seeing what their kids were being taught and they got upset, I really do wonder how many parents were getting upset over other aspects of the curriculum, but CRT makes a way better story than parents being mad about how kids are being taught to divide.

I wonder how many people are upset/bothered/angry with common core or any other change just because it isn't what they did in the past? The "it was good enough for me" and "I suffered so it's OK if you do too" syndromes are strong in our society.

I learned old math, but the common core version in the video makes equally as much sense and I can see it being more straightforward for people.

Part of the problem with how we teach anything is that it isn't experiential. I find the amount of memorization that is done just to pass exams is an issue. Maybe it's better now but my experience, both as a student and a teacher of college students, was that students have trouble expressing their thoughts, forming arguments, making judgements, doing anything that has to do with writing, but can memorize to make sure they get a grade.

The weight we put on grades is also problematic, but maybe that's another discussion.

 

[TenderLovingKiller®]

This backlash started, not with CRT, but with Common Core requirements.
When they saw how disastrous things like sight words were and as for common core math, well, here's a video to show some fun that parents deal with:


Not just the way common core requires math to be done, but the way they skip around from fractions to multiplication, all I see it doing is confusing my children. Sight words have been proven to be less effective than phonics especially in children with special needs and/or cognitive delay. And more often than not, we end up reteaching kids how to do the math that we learned. They understand the math that we learned much better than the math they are learning in school.

Like I said, I'm okay with us looking at our history book and pointing out that America was built on the backs of slaves that got nothing from it. I noticed that when my kiddo was quarantined that they really did a lot to beef up the curriculum around Native Americans, and I got to learn a lot more about the native groups that lived here prior to Europeans coming in. I think that is a really cool addition to the curriculum.
The problem I see is that while they are killing it in the social studies area, they don't even come close to effective math and reading curriculums. Most of the parents that I know have a much bigger problem with the way they are teaching math, than them teaching CRT. And this is where I get really cranky, because often times when people report that parents were seeing what their kids were being taught and they got upset, I really do wonder how many parents were getting upset over other aspects of the curriculum, but CRT makes a way better story than parents being mad about how kids are being taught to divide.

The fuck!?!! I learned the “borrow/payback” method in the 90s. Why is it bad for kids to learn an algorithm to understand math? Seems like you would want to teach the easiest thing for kids to process. If a kid has a tough time wrapping their head around math maybe then come up with some alternative methods but it seems like common core overly complicates things for the sake of better understanding. All they should want kids to understand is if you input two sets of numbers int the equation you will receive the correct output. That video makes me mad and I don’t even have kids.

 

[TenderLovingKiller®]

This is the only objective that seems to align to the reality.

To give them credit, they did try to base this on how people who are really good at math think. When I think about math, I think in pictures. And I read that many people who do well in math, often think of it pictorially. But they are attempting to break down math problems and try to get people to think about them the way people with "math brains" think of it. The fallacy here being that regular people should think of math problems the way my weird ass brain sees them. It's like trying to force a square peg into a round hole.

Yeah, I use some bastardized version of common core when adding up lots of numbers in my head but you get be me paper and a pen, I will do the borrow method faster and likely more accurate.

 

[Max Sterling]

I just sing that Inch Worm song from Hans Christian Andersen and guess the rest.

 

[RenegadeMonster]

Most major metropolitan areas have become more racially segregated, study shows

Some of the nation's largest metropolitan regions have become increasingly segregated in the last 30 years, underscoring racial inequalities that have led to poorer life outcomes in Black and brown neighborhoods, according to a study released Monday by the University of California Berkeley's...

www.cnn.com

The study found that 81% of regions with more than 200,000 residents were more segregated in 2019 than they were in 1990, despite fair housing laws and policies created to promote integration.

Some of the most segregated areas included Chicago, Milwaukee and Detroit in the Midwest and New York, northern New Jersey and Philadelphia in the mid-Atlantic.

Conversely, large metropolitan regions that saw the biggest decrease in segregation included Savannah, Georgia, San Antonio and Miami.

Wage inequality is what is leading to these increases in segregation. It's not just race that leads to inequality, but more so the environment you grow up in.

"The takeaway from these findings is that race itself appears not to be the determining factor in an individual's life outcomes," the institute said in a news release. "Rather, the more consequential factor for life outcomes is the environment in which that individual is immersed."

 

[nolalady]

I wonder how many people are upset/bothered/angry with common core or any other change just because it isn't what they did in the past? The "it was good enough for me" and "I suffered so it's OK if you do too" syndromes are strong in our society.

I learned old math, but the common core version in the video makes equally as much sense and I can see it being more straightforward for people.

Part of the problem with how we teach anything is that it isn't experiential. I find the amount of memorization that is done just to pass exams is an issue. Maybe it's better now but my experience, both as a student and a teacher of college students, was that students have trouble expressing their thoughts, forming arguments, making judgements, doing anything that has to do with writing, but can memorize to make sure they get a grade.

The weight we put on grades is also problematic, but maybe that's another discussion.

The fuck!?!! I learned the “borrow/payback” method in the 90s. Why is it bad for kids to learn an algorithm to understand math? Seems like you would want to teach the easiest thing for kids to process. If a kid has a tough time wrapping their head around math maybe then come up with some alternative methods but it seems like common core overly complicates things for the sake of better understanding. All they should want kids to understand is if you input two sets of numbers int the equation you will receive the correct output. That video makes me mad and I don’t even have kids.

It's fun to see takes on common core math from people who newly experience it.

Ultimately, there is rote memorization in math. You don't want all of your math to be rote memorization, but it's extremely useful for basic math facts. If a kid doesn't know what 7x7 is then you can't really go any further with any other piece of the problem until you know your "math facts". I think what curriculum writers fail at is that a person with really good math abilities isn't a person that eschews all rote learning or algorithmic tasks, it's that a person with really good math abilities often writes their own algorithm for different math tasks. You can't expect a kid to spontaneously come up with their own algorithm, which is why it's good to teach them how they work by showing them basic algorithms. To create independent thinkers, you need to give them basic tools first. What I find in common core is that they put the cart before the horse. They try to make the student create algorithms for solving problems before they are shown the algorithms that solve the problem efficiently.

 

[jaycee]

It's fun to see takes on common core math from people who newly experience it.

Ultimately, there is rote memorization in math. You don't want all of your math to be rote memorization, but it's extremely useful for basic math facts. If a kid doesn't know what 7x7 is then you can't really go any further with any other piece of the problem until you know your "math facts". I think what curriculum writers fail at is that a person with really good math abilities isn't a person that eschews all rote learning or algorithmic tasks, it's that a person with really good math abilities often writes their own algorithm for different math tasks. You can't expect a kid to spontaneously come up with their own algorithm, which is why it's good to teach them how they work by showing them basic algorithms. To create independent thinkers, you need to give them basic tools first. What I find in common core is that they put the cart before the horse. They try to make the student create algorithms for solving problems before they are shown the algorithms that solve the problem efficiently.

I didn't mean people didn't need to memorize or that math could be taught w/o it. I meant that experiential learning in all disciplines (including math) can be really useful and help people grasp concepts better than simply memorizing.

 

[TenderLovingKiller®]

My parental observation is that it’s important to remember the new/CC math isn’t meant to replace old math. It’s meant to give students a better foundation for visualizing numbers and understanding concepts *before* introducing arbitrary algorithms. The idea is to understand the concept of numbers before you teach the shortcut formula for arriving at the right answer. I can do a lot of math in my head based on formulas I remember, but it doesn’t mean I have a good head for math or a strong understanding of math concepts.

I witnessed a lot a lot a LOT of tears over these CC principles when my older one was in first grade. We didn’t understand the lessons or how the work was supposed to be done, which frustrated us as parents. The teacher was new to a curriculum that had been handed down from on high, which frustrated her. And the kiddos didn’t know why everyone kept saying “I DON’T KNOW WHY WE HAVE TO TEACH YOU THE WAY THAT SUCKS,” which frustrated them especially.

And now she does geometry in her head.

All of which is to say, I don’t like it either, and I wouldn’t want to be made to use it at this point in my life, and I’m dreading doing it again with the next kid.

But when THESE kids, who grew up learning it this way, grow into the parents and teachers who are passing this down like it’s second nature, will our feelings about it be outdated?

Not sure, I just keep thinking about that asshole Twitter Dad with the can opener. The guy who had his kid suffer through hours figuring out how a goddamn can opener works. I think of basic math as a tool and if I had a child, I would want to show them how to effectively operate the tool as opposed to understanding the concept of how the tool works. There is time later once they’ve been taught how to do basic math that teachers could circle back and explore the concept further (if they really feel like that is a useful). I like to think I have a quizzical mind but I’ve never really worried too much about the concept of a can opener. I am just happy to know I can open cans with them when I need to.

I just googled “has common core been effective” and the results reveal a bunch of articles from the likes of the New York Times and NPR that say 10 years in Common core testing results have been pretty flat. Which doesn’t sound great. Do other countries use common core principles to teach math?

Also, how come we can completely change the concept of math TWICE over the last 20 years but still haven’t managed to make the switch to the metric system?

 

[Dtknuckles]

This backlash started, not with CRT, but with Common Core requirements.
When they saw how disastrous things like sight words were and as for common core math, well, here's a video to show some fun that parents deal with:


Not just the way common core requires math to be done, but the way they skip around from fractions to multiplication, all I see it doing is confusing my children. Sight words have been proven to be less effective than phonics especially in children with special needs and/or cognitive delay. And more often than not, we end up reteaching kids how to do the math that we learned. They understand the math that we learned much better than the math they are learning in school.

Like I said, I'm okay with us looking at our history book and pointing out that America was built on the backs of slaves that got nothing from it. I noticed that when my kiddo was quarantined that they really did a lot to beef up the curriculum around Native Americans, and I got to learn a lot more about the native groups that lived here prior to Europeans coming in. I think that is a really cool addition to the curriculum.
The problem I see is that while they are killing it in the social studies area, they don't even come close to effective math and reading curriculums. Most of the parents that I know have a much bigger problem with the way they are teaching math, than them teaching CRT. And this is where I get really cranky, because often times when people report that parents were seeing what their kids were being taught and they got upset, I really do wonder how many parents were getting upset over other aspects of the curriculum, but CRT makes a way better story than parents being mad about how kids are being taught to divide.

Wait I have to add up long strings of single digits for my work sometimes and I use that common core method.

 

[Joe Mac]

Wait I have to add up long strings of single digits for my work sometimes and I use that common core method.

Yeah that common core subtraction demo is exactly how I do mental arithmetic and I used to be quite good at that back in the days when I actually did it regularly!

 

[RenegadeMonster]

RIP to vorter reform.

There is not even enough republican support to allow debate on the senate floor. Actually, there is no republican support to be honest.

Republicans don't even want to talk about voter reform. They are acting like they have something to hide. The bill will not make it ot the senate floor because it does not have the 60's votes it needs to override the filibuster to allow debate.

Mitch McConnell says that the voter reform bill is all about creating the unfair advantage for one party and that it is extremely dangerous to our democracy.

Excuse me Mitch Weasel McConnell, but exactly what have Republican controlled states been doing the last 6 months?

Talk about a hypocrite.

The democrats bill is not at all about creating an unfair advantage. It's about protecting our democracy so a party can't create an unfair advantage.

 

[RenegadeMonster]

According to the the straw poll as well as some other national polling, Trump is no longer the preferred choice for President in 2024. Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis is starting to edge Trump for the lead in some polls.

Is Ron DeSantis even considering running?

And if he did, I trust him to lead our country just as much as Trump, so it's not really an improvement.

 

[nolalady]

My parental observation is that it’s important to remember the new/CC math isn’t meant to replace old math. It’s meant to give students a better foundation for visualizing numbers and understanding concepts *before* introducing arbitrary algorithms. The idea is to understand the concept of numbers before you teach the shortcut formula for arriving at the right answer. I can do a lot of math in my head based on formulas I remember, but it doesn’t mean I have a good head for math or a strong understanding of math concepts.

I witnessed a lot a lot a LOT of tears over these CC principles when my older one was in first grade. We didn’t understand the lessons or how the work was supposed to be done, which frustrated us as parents. The teacher was new to a curriculum that had been handed down from on high, which frustrated her. And the kiddos didn’t know why everyone kept saying “I DON’T KNOW WHY WE HAVE TO TEACH YOU THE WAY THAT SUCKS,” which frustrated them especially.

And now she does geometry in her head.

All of which is to say, I don’t like it either, and I wouldn’t want to be made to use it at this point in my life, and I’m dreading doing it again with the next kid.

But when THESE kids, who grew up learning it this way, grow into the parents and teachers who are passing this down like it’s second nature, will our feelings about it be outdated?

To @TenderLovingKiller® 's point, this seems like a sound principle, and it is based on mathematical thinking, but I find real pitfalls when the child has cognitive issues. Yes, it works well for a person with a high IQ and some decently cemented in logic skills, but try to teach this to a child with cognitive delay, and you get my son who has no real idea how to do basic problems because he has to know the theory behind it too, which is a non-starter.

Not sure, I just keep thinking about that asshole Twitter Dad with the can opener. The guy who had his kid suffer through hours figuring out how a goddamn can opener works. I think of basic math as a tool and if I had a child, I would want to show them how to effectively operate the tool as opposed to understanding the concept of how the tool works. There is time later once they’ve been taught how to do basic math that teachers could circle back and explore the concept further (if they really feel like that is a useful). I like to think I have a quizzical mind but I’ve never really worried too much about the concept of a can opener. I am just happy to know I can open cans with them when I need to.

I just googled “has common core been effective” and the results reveal a bunch of articles from the likes of the New York Times and NPR that say 10 years in Common core testing results have been pretty flat. Which doesn’t sound great. Do other countries use common core principles to teach math?

Also, how come we can completely change the concept of math TWICE over the last 20 years but still haven’t managed to make the switch to the metric system?

The reason it is flat is because it works well for those without special needs or cognitive delay, but those kids that are already at a disadvantage in school, are put at more of one than previously thought. I ran into an article a few years ago that talked about how kids that weren't on the smart side of the IQ curve were testing lower with common core than without.

 

[Dtknuckles]

Yeah that common core subtraction demo is exactly how I do mental arithmetic and I used to be quite good at that back in the days when I actually did it regularly!

My bad working memory just forced me to add up so things make groups of 10.

 

[Dtknuckles]

To @TenderLovingKiller® 's point, this seems like a sound principle, and it is based on mathematical thinking, but I find real pitfalls when the child has cognitive issues. Yes, it works well for a person with a high IQ and some decently cemented in logic skills, but try to teach this to a child with cognitive delay, and you get my son who has no real idea how to do basic problems because he has to know the theory behind it too, which is a non-starter.

The reason it is flat is because it works well for those without special needs or cognitive delay, but those kids that are already at a disadvantage in school, are put at more of one than previously thought. I ran into an article a few years ago that talked about how kids that weren't on the smart side of the IQ curve were testing lower with common core than without.

This type of math requires good conceptual processing, or the ability to assemble, define and manipulate the boundaries of ideas using language to represent them. It’s a big ask for kids with Autism since abstract language is usually their deficit.