Political Discussion

Chucktshoes said:
/rant on/
Also, want to touch on something in your last sentence that is not directly aimed at you, but the rhetoric in general. Labeling every right wing group or viewpoint as Nazis or white nationalists doesn’t help anything at all. One, it’s demonstrably false. An example is the Proud Boys. Not defending them at all (I think they’re mostly idiots) but a multiracial group headed by a dark completed Puerto Rican is a hard sell to me as being white nationalists. Two, the more you call folks something that they aren’t, the more you push them towards that thing. It’s a pretty well understood phenomenon and I t helps nothing at all.
/rant off/
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While I don’t necessarily disagree with your sentiment here in a larger sense. I think The Proud Boys aren’t the best example. While the group presents itself as a quasi men’s rights organization, the groups founder, Gavin McGinnis, definitely speaks the language of white supremacy, lots of talk of race purity and things of that nature. Also, regardless of the roles that they place some minorities within their organizational structure, I would argue that their actions give off strong white supremacy vibes. Lots of black and gold Fred Perry polos at the “Unite The Right” rally in Charlottesville, chanting, “The Jews will not replace us”. Lots of Proud Boys riding through Portland in the back pick up trucks harassing BLM protestors, etc, etc. The Proud Boys claiming they are not a white supremacy organization because they have a few minority members is like someone saying “but some of my best friends are black” after they say something racist.

I think it goes without saying but still I want to stress, I don’t think you are remotely defending The Proud Boys. I just think that The Proud Boys probably aren’t a great example for making your point.
 
Chucktshoes said:
/rant on/
Also, want to touch on something in your last sentence that is not directly aimed at you, but the rhetoric in general. Labeling every right wing group or viewpoint as Nazis or white nationalists doesn’t help anything at all. One, it’s demonstrably false. An example is the Proud Boys. Not defending them at all (I think they’re mostly idiots) but a multiracial group headed by a dark completed Puerto Rican is a hard sell to me as being white nationalists. Two, the more you call folks something that they aren’t, the more you push them towards that thing. It’s a pretty well understood phenomenon and I t helps nothing at all.
/rant off/
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I agree and I think the problem you're describing is one of he reasons we are where we are. Labeling someone's identity something it isn't is problematic. Also there are plenty of people claiming their ideology isn't something that it is (from all political angels). I have a weird, poorly formed theory about the blowback from the left's labeling of people on the right. Of course this works both ways and has everything to do with people's identities being tied to their political affiliation. These identities and judgements seem to be defining many people's thoughts and approaches.

One addition to your comment: White nationalism / supremacy is baked-in, and I don't think a person's ethnicity or race precludes them from endorsing or promoting it.
 
Chucktshoes said:
/rant on/
Also, want to touch on something in your last sentence that is not directly aimed at you, but the rhetoric in general. Labeling every right wing group or viewpoint as Nazis or white nationalists doesn’t help anything at all. One, it’s demonstrably false. An example is the Proud Boys. Not defending them at all (I think they’re mostly idiots) but a multiracial group headed by a dark completed Puerto Rican is a hard sell to me as being white nationalists. Two, the more you call folks something that they aren’t, the more you push them towards that thing. It’s a pretty well understood phenomenon and I t helps nothing at all.
/rant off/
Click to expand...

jaycee said:
I agree and I think the problem you're describing is one of he reasons we are where we are. Labeling someone's identity something it isn't is problematic. Also there are plenty of people claiming their ideology isn't something that it is (from all political angels). I have a weird, poorly formed theory about the blowback from the left's labeling of people on the right. Of course this works both ways and has everything to do with people's identities being tied to their political affiliation. These identities and judgements seem to be defining many people's thoughts and approaches.

One addition to your comment: White nationalism / supremacy is baked-in, and I don't think a person's ethnicity or race precludes them from endorsing or promoting it.
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So first, let's address the elephant in the room. Many of these men's groups are just that, groups of men for men which means a lot of these groups are also very anti-feminism. Women are supposed to serve men. This wave of anit-feminism, especially among young men, I see this as the direct result of them not being able to earn a decent living. They have trouble attracting women because many women want a stable man who isn't a bum. If she's looking to settle down and have kids, she needs to know that this guy can provide for her and kids. With housing, education, and medical costs being what they are, many young people have very few options when they leave high school and they end up really bitter, really fast. They can't even start their lives because they've already been priced out of basics like rent and transportation. So what do they do? They get online and find a bunch of pissed off young men and get together. While your race may or may not be an issue for any one of these groups, they are definitely not big on women joining up--unless it's in a servile role.

I find it really stupid when the news organizations try to label these as white nationalist or anything else but what they are, young men pissed off that they have no real future prospects. They might end up with Swastika tattoos but they started as a guy who couldn't find a job that affords him a place to live and something to get around in. Why do they hate the Jews? Because they think that's who has the jobs and who's hoarding the money. Why do they hate immigrants? Because they are making it possible for employers to pay people a lot less, and undocumented workers are part of the wage race to the bottom. Are these guys wrong to spew hate? Yes, absolutely. Should they understand that being mad at a group of people is not okay? Yes, yes. But the reason they feel disenfranchised is because they are. We did not carve out a place for them in society, so they are carving out their own. If you give enough young men enough idle time and no prospects, you're going to get groups of young, angry men.
 
nolalady said:
So first, let's address the elephant in the room. Many of these men's groups are just that, groups of men for men which means a lot of these groups are also very anti-feminism. Women are supposed to serve men. This wave of anit-feminism, especially among young men, I see this as the direct result of them not being able to earn a decent living. They have trouble attracting women because many women want a stable man who isn't a bum. If she's looking to settle down and have kids, she needs to know that this guy can provide for her and kids. With housing, education, and medical costs being what they are, many young people have very few options when they leave high school and they end up really bitter, really fast. They can't even start their lives because they've already been priced out of basics like rent and transportation. So what do they do? They get online and find a bunch of pissed off young men and get together. While your race may or may not be an issue for any one of these groups, they are definitely not big on women joining up--unless it's in a servile role.

I find it really stupid when the news organizations try to label these as white nationalist or anything else but what they are, young men pissed off that they have no real future prospects. They might end up with Swastika tattoos but they started as a guy who couldn't find a job that affords him a place to live and something to get around in. Why do they hate the Jews? Because they think that's who has the jobs and who's hoarding the money. Why do they hate immigrants? Because they are making it possible for employers to pay people a lot less, and undocumented workers are part of the wage race to the bottom. Are these guys wrong to spew hate? Yes, absolutely. Should they understand that being mad at a group of people is not okay? Yes, yes. But the reason they feel disenfranchised is because they are. We did not carve out a place for them in society, so they are carving out their own. If you give enough young men enough idle time and no prospects, you're going to get groups of young, angry men.
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I agree to some extent but this almost paints a picture of there being no other option. Young men of all races join gangs for a multitude of reasons, including many for the reasons you state here. Understanding what causes the behavior is important but it’s also important not to make excuses for people when poor decisions are made on their part. Many on the Right are more than happy to apply this rationale to excuse the acts of predominantly white gangs (Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, etc…) but would not apply the same reasoning to a minority gang. Gangs are an outgrowth of a much larger societal problem for sure and just as you can’t assume all Muslims as terrorist you can’t paint all Trump Supporters as White Nationalists but if a Muslim is a Terrorist or a Trump Supporter is a white nationalist society should accurately describe them as what they are.
 
nolalady said:
So first, let's address the elephant in the room. Many of these men's groups are just that, groups of men for men which means a lot of these groups are also very anti-feminism. Women are supposed to serve men. This wave of anit-feminism, especially among young men, I see this as the direct result of them not being able to earn a decent living. They have trouble attracting women because many women want a stable man who isn't a bum. If she's looking to settle down and have kids, she needs to know that this guy can provide for her and kids. With housing, education, and medical costs being what they are, many young people have very few options when they leave high school and they end up really bitter, really fast. They can't even start their lives because they've already been priced out of basics like rent and transportation. So what do they do? They get online and find a bunch of pissed off young men and get together. While your race may or may not be an issue for any one of these groups, they are definitely not big on women joining up--unless it's in a servile role.

I find it really stupid when the news organizations try to label these as white nationalist or anything else but what they are, young men pissed off that they have no real future prospects. They might end up with Swastika tattoos but they started as a guy who couldn't find a job that affords him a place to live and something to get around in. Why do they hate the Jews? Because they think that's who has the jobs and who's hoarding the money. Why do they hate immigrants? Because they are making it possible for employers to pay people a lot less, and undocumented workers are part of the wage race to the bottom. Are these guys wrong to spew hate? Yes, absolutely. Should they understand that being mad at a group of people is not okay? Yes, yes. But the reason they feel disenfranchised is because they are. We did not carve out a place for them in society, so they are carving out their own. If you give enough young men enough idle time and no prospects, you're going to get groups of young, angry men.
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Disenfranchisement is certainly a factor in gang membership, but the people chanting "you will not replace us" are spewing racist ideologies. Does that make them white-nationalists? No - not necessarily. Does it make them supremacists? Yes - absolutely, whether they understand the ramifications of the narratives their spewing or not. Ignorance about your own ideology doesn't mean you don't believe in the ideology.

Any white person in America has a tailwind regardless of how disenfranchised they may be. I think about the people in Appalachia, who were betrayed by the Fed, by their employers, by the "free" market. Those are some of the most disenfranchised people in the western hemisphere and still they are not on the lowest rung of our caste system.

So yes, some of these men have some legitimate gripes. Yes some are probably ignorant to some extent of the ramifications of their actions. Yes some of them are being taken-advantaged of / manipulated by people with political motivations, but they belong to and participate in groups that clearly state their race-based intentions, and yes some of them do actively promote a race-based state.

Where does their hate come from? It's something that's taught, it's something that's conditioned, and it's directed at castes different than their own. I don't believe it's solely motivated by economics. I believe it's also motivated by unmet expectations of their tailwind, by social and political construction, and by belief systems that for millenia have conditioned white people to believe that they (and they alone) were made in the image of God. So that anybody who doesn't "resemble" God, as they do, is lesser. So that Christian white-men can then place themselves above all others and expect that is the order of the world. That order is threatened by us non-believers.
 
TenderLovingKiller® said:
I agree to some extent but this almost paints a picture of there being no other option. Young men of all races join gangs for a multitude of reasons, including many for the reasons you state here. Understanding what causes the behavior is important but it’s also important not to make excuses for people when poor decisions are made on their part. Many on the Right are more than happy to apply this rationale to excuse the acts of predominantly white gangs (Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, etc…) but would not apply the same reasoning to a minority gang. Gangs are an outgrowth of a much larger societal problem for sure and just as you can’t assume all Muslims as terrorist you can’t paint all Trump Supporters as White Nationalists but if a Muslim is a Terrorist or a Trump Supporter is a white nationalist society should accurately describe them as what they are.
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Oh, this as an issue that is known in the Black community. I've talked about this with some of my black friends and many of them understand that the reason young Black men join gangs is because they have very little other option. If they aren't good at school and they aren't great at sports, gangs are a viable option for money and protection. If they could grab a job that afforded them a place where they didn't need the protection, I'm sure a lot more people would choose this. If you look at the employment numbers of black males, it's not surprising that gangs were first considered a problem in this cohort. When living wages aren't available, you get a lot of angry, young men. This is the same reason there are tons of gang related issues in central America. I am not naïve enough to think that this only happens in isolated groups of white men.

As for "individual choice", I argue that sometimes all you are given in life is a handful of really bad choices. My SIL used to work at a high school with a lot of low income kids. She would tell me that there were several kids she was flexible with because they were good students, but they often couldn't get homework done because they worked to support their family. Some kids had parents that were on drugs and didn't work, and some kids that were living between houses because they were on the oust with their caregiver. When you see a kid who is working after school to have money for food for him and his little sister because his mom is not working, you realize that this kid is exceptional, and will make it, but if you were put in that same situation, could you step up like this kid did?? Could you imagine if you had to worry about supporting siblings while also trying to get a diploma? To say that everyone has a path out and to say that they need to pay for their bad decisions, I don't argue that. Yes, there is a possibility that these kids could make it out of a bad situation through hard work and smart decision making, but really, how many people do you know that never make a mistake or bad decision? How many people do you know are this savvy?
 
jaycee said:
Where does their hate come from? It's something that's taught, it's something that's conditioned, and it's directed at castes different than their own. I don't believe it's solely motivated by economics. I believe it's also motivated by unmet expectations of their tailwind, by social and political construction, and by belief systems that for millenia have conditioned white people to believe that they (and they alone) were made in the image of God. So that anybody who doesn't "resemble" God, as they do, is lesser. So that Christian white-men can then place themselves above all others and expect that is the order of the world. That order is threatened by us non-believers.
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I was making a blanket statement that any young man with enough time on his hands can get bitter and disenfranchised very quickly if you don't give him a means to make a living.

You are right. Though black and brown young men have been grist for our prison system, white young men were promised "manifest destiny". It's not a new promise, but it's one that is getting harder and harder for us to fulfill. I have seen the form of education you are referencing in action. It's easier not to care about people if they are lesser. So if there are prisons full of lesser people and factories full of lesser people that are being inhumanely treated, we can act like it's not so bad. It's the price we pay for our current (capitalist) system.

But what do we do with this knowledge?? Okay, so they were conditioned to hate by their church and their family. So where do we go from here? The only way to change a world view is to give someone the means to have a new world view. And that requires them to leave their comfortable places and experience different, but that can only happen if they have that option.
 
nolalady said:
Oh, this as an issue that is known in the Black community. I've talked about this with some of my black friends and many of them understand that the reason young Black men join gangs is because they have very little other option. If they aren't good at school and they aren't great at sports, gangs are a viable option for money and protection. If they could grab a job that afforded them a place where they didn't need the protection, I'm sure a lot more people would choose this. If you look at the employment numbers of black males, it's not surprising that gangs were first considered a problem in this cohort. When living wages aren't available, you get a lot of angry, young men. This is the same reason there are tons of gang related issues in central America. I am not naïve enough to think that this only happens in isolated groups of white men.

As for "individual choice", I argue that sometimes all you are given in life is a handful of really bad choices. My SIL used to work at a high school with a lot of low income kids. She would tell me that there were several kids she was flexible with because they were good students, but they often couldn't get homework done because they worked to support their family. Some kids had parents that were on drugs and didn't work, and some kids that were living between houses because they were on the oust with their caregiver. When you see a kid who is working after school to have money for food for him and his little sister because his mom is not working, you realize that this kid is exceptional, and will make it, but if you were put in that same situation, could you step up like this kid did?? Could you imagine if you had to worry about supporting siblings while also trying to get a diploma? To say that everyone has a path out and to say that they need to pay for their bad decisions, I don't argue that. Yes, there is a possibility that these kids could make it out of a bad situation through hard work and smart decision making, but really, how many people do you know that never make a mistake or bad decision? How many people do you know are this savvy?
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Yeah, I agree with all of this. Society certainly needs to do more to address the underlying issues that push people down a bad path but society also shouldn’t completely write of ones own personal responsibility either. It’s a delicate balance between the two. We have to acknowledge both to really address the issue. The majority of unemployed, underemployed, or disenfranchised people are probably to some extent angry and unhappy (also a big driver behind the ever growing opioid addiction and suicide rates) but most are not joining gangs or jihad groups or White Nationalists organizations so while these groups are certainly full of angry young men, they’re is some personal responsibility in allowing oneself to be swept up into those groups.
 
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TenderLovingKiller® said:
Yeah, I agree with all of this. Society certainly needs to do more to address the underlying issues that push people down a bad path but society also shouldn’t completely write of ones own personal responsibility either. It’s a delicate balance between the two. We have to acknowledge both to really address the issue. The majority of unemployed, underemployed, or disenfranchised people are probably to some extent angry and unhappy (also a big driver behind the ever growing opioid addiction and suicide rates) but most are not joining gangs or jihad groups or White Nationalists organizations so while these groups are certainly full of angry young men, they’re is some personal responsibility in allowing oneself to be swept up into those groups.
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It really is a delicate balance. I realize that I'm asking people to have sympathy for the devil, but I believe that the only way we move forward as a species is for us to become radically compassionate. Realize that we all make mistakes and understand that though it might manifest as anger, what you are seeing is a person in pain.
 
nolalady said:
But what do we do with this knowledge?? Okay, so they were conditioned to hate by their church and their family. So where do we go from here? The only way to change a world view is to give someone the means to have a new world view. And that requires them to leave their comfortable places and experience different, but that can only happen if they have that option.
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I don't think most people were necessarily conditioned to hate by their religion or their family, just to differentiate, just to put yourself one notch above another. Combine that with the ties to politics and therefore economics of many religions and you have a recipe for caste and a breeding ground for people to use hate as political and social capital.

I would agree that providing people with economic opportunity is essential. I don't think educating people about alternatives is particularly useful. Once people believe something it's very hard to undue that through anything other that creating the space for them to realize the alternative on their own. Particularly if you consider that the folks that are pro the current version of American democratic capitalism are also the people who blame their disenfranchisement on something other than the economic and governing system their identity is tied to (I know I'm generalizing). I've always been confused why people vote against their best economic interests but they usually do.

Like any recovery, any injury, any change in behavior, it takes some upheaval but mostly time and practice. There also has to be a want for something to change. I think the want is already there and it's being preyed upon by politicians, the media, and the leadership of these groups. One of the little things we can stop doing as individuals and as a society is normalizing the role of religion in government and education. We can also stop the hypocritical act of forcing youth to "pledge allegiance" in the classroom. Another thing is to focus education on scientific learning and decision-making. Those practices condition people to take in different types of information to reach judgements. It also conditions people to understand the limitations of their judgements. It's not perfect and it isn't meant to be, which is the point. I also tthink people do need to accept that the current practice of capitalism is founded on cheap labor for the benefit of the few - not the many. It's why (in-part) globalization is a thing. In some ways it's been in practice ever since homosapiens figured out how to grow things and stay in one place. Without doing so capitalism can't be reformed and/or a different practice put into place. Humans have become the natural resource to be extracted as the stuff we used to get from the earth has become harder and harder to access and profit off of.
 
www.cnn.com

FBI says it got more than 4,500 tips on Kavanaugh, providing 'relevant' ones to White House

The FBI disclosed that it received more than 4,500 tips on a phone line in 2018 as part of a background investigation into then-Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh and provided "relevant" ones to former President Donald Trump's White House counsel.
www.cnn.com www.cnn.com

The TL/DR:

The FBI received numerous credible tips of sexual misconduct by Kavanaugh, including by Dr. Ford on a tip line that was setup. They did not investigate any tips stating they didn't have the authority. They just turned over the tips to the White House which falsely claimed the FBI found no wrongdoing by Kavanaugh.
 
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RenegadeMonster said:
www.cnn.com

FBI says it got more than 4,500 tips on Kavanaugh, providing 'relevant' ones to White House

The FBI disclosed that it received more than 4,500 tips on a phone line in 2018 as part of a background investigation into then-Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh and provided "relevant" ones to former President Donald Trump's White House counsel.
www.cnn.com www.cnn.com

The TL/DR:

The FBI received numerous credible tips of sexual misconduct by Kavanaugh, including by Dr. Ford on a tip line setup. They did not investigate any tips staging they didn't have the authority. They just turned over the tips to the White House which falsely claimed the FBI found no wrong doing by Kavanaugh.
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Institutional sexist politics, nothing changed since Thomas got seated.
 
Reading through the twitter thread on the above tweet, it amazes me how much people will argue against this, when it's in their own best interests.

Basically, one guy was stating that there should be a flat rate. Someone making 15k a year should pay an equal amount of taxes that the rich also pay. That increasing percentage brackets for taxes are illegal under the 14th amendment. When people argued back about percent of income those taxes would then be composed for those living in poverty and how it would impact them much more than the rich, this is what they had to say about it.

Meeting basic needs are a personal responsibility and taxes are only required for what the law says at the local, state, and federal level, the federal is governed by the constitution and is supposed to be equal under the law 14th amendment
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The thread only further goes on to anger me when the guy further goes on to say these people aren't disadvantage, they are lazy and unmotivated. That it's easy enough to to learn a new skill set, whether through education or learning a trade to make more money. As if they all can afford to do so, have proper childcare and enough jobs exist for everyone to do that.
 
Teacher shortages are a big issue post pandemic and that doesn't appear to be changing anytime soon. Probably getting worse as many current teachers retire. One state, Illinois is now hiring international teachers.

Multiple factors contribute to the shortage​

The Frontline study shows multiple reasons for the national teacher shortage. It sites a limited pool of qualified applicants; salary and benefits are lacking compared to other careers; and a shrinking number of new education school graduates.
Wrobleski said he hasn't hired anyone from other countries but is working with colleges and universities to help fill the jobs. And he's already concerned about the school years ahead.
"I'm worried though. And as I look at my own staff and see a population that is getting near retirement," he said. "It's a challenge."
If his current opening is still vacant by the start of the school year, Wrobleski said some teachers on staff will have to teach five classes instead of six. That creates another challenge: teachers doing more with less.
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www.cnn.com

Illinois schools struggle to fill teaching vacancies. 1 district hires international teachers to meet the needs | CNN

As another school year approaches, administrators nationwide are facing teacher shortages.
www.cnn.com www.cnn.com
 
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