Political Discussion

waruv said:
I'm not disagreeing that I think it's inefficient and a poor use of money. I'm just explaining why I think it's there - two thirds of Americans think loan forgiveness should happen but half of those people think it should be need based as opposed to all loans. I say this as someone who barely has any student debt and makes under 125k a year and, similarly, doesn't have a notable dog in this hunt.
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I just wish Americans would stop thinking this way. We're only hurting ourselves.
 
nolalady said:
Means testing is part of the neoliberal order. It's designed to dole out contractor dollars, create unnecessary bureaucracy, and make a system that is difficult to navigate in hopes that people that actually do qualify cannot access the money they were promised due to "bugs" in the system. It's a good way to create jobs for political allies and give out money to companies, without giving out money to actual people that the money is supposed to help. Most means testing for government programs should be done away with because it is usually just a large waste of money. For instance, very few people think that those individuals making over $125K/year should be barred from the library, but that's a completely publicly funded entity.

Also, I do not make over $125K/year nor do I owe student loans anymore, and I think it's stupid for us to means test in order for people to get this money.
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There’s also the political blowback of headlines about millionaires getting government handouts. That never plays well. At least over here, I’m not sure on your side of the pond.

But yeah even if you bought the reasons for means testing it’s messy, labour intensive and generally ends up costing more than its purported that it saves.
 
nolalady said:
I just wish Americans would stop thinking this way. We're only hurting ourselves.
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I'm not sure Americans think that way. Most of us don't respond to polls and poll takers are targeting who they talk to to get the results they want. I assume most people would be for a blanket forgiveness plan as either a percentage of what was owed or flat numbers like here. Most of us don't want that to be tied up to endless bureaucracy.

The amount of loans I have left is small enough that I just won't worry about it. In hindsight I probably should have just kept paying during the forgiveness period and I'd probably be done now. OH well, I've never been smart with my money anyhow... stares at the thousands of records on his wall.
 
nolalady said:
Means testing is part of the neoliberal order. It's designed to dole out contractor dollars, create unnecessary bureaucracy, and make a system that is difficult to navigate in hopes that people that actually do qualify cannot access the money they were promised due to "bugs" in the system. It's a good way to create jobs for political allies and give out money to companies, without giving out money to actual people that the money is supposed to help. Most means testing for government programs should be done away with because it is usually just a large waste of money. For instance, very few people think that those individuals making over $125K/year should be barred from the library, but that's a completely publicly funded entity.

Also, I do not make over $125K/year nor do I owe student loans anymore, and I think it's stupid for us to means test in order for people to get this money.
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That’s an interesting point.

As for the forgiveness package itself, I’m glad some people are getting all or most of their debt wiped. Unfortunately for my family this announcement barely dents our balances. My wife and I both graduated from law school almost 10 years ago and together we make about $100,000, and our combined pre-forgiveness, with-interest debt is about $200,000. The solace is that we both work nonprofit jobs so we at least have a shot at PSLF by the end of the decade.
 
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Very happy for my friends whose lives are being helped by Biden's student debt tweaks. A lot of them are first generation college students from working class families. But I needed somewhere to express frustration that the caps on interest rates and shift to a 5% income based repayment plan only apply to undergraduate loans.

First of all, that means teachers and social workers are still fairly screwed and are gonna have to keep their fingers crossed that a Democrat is in office when they hit the 10 year marker of public service. But also, interest rates on Grad loans are nuts. I had no idea the implications of a 6-8% rate when I got into an elite grad program (that raised their tuition rates every year of my 3 year program). 110k pulled had ballooned to 200k within 3 years of me graduating... and 5 years is the standard time to get stable within the industry afterwards. So even my friends from school that make good $$$ (which is a solid % of them) are largely just chipping away at the principle considering that same industry requires them to live and work in California

And in my case, a series of health problems that I will forever have to manage, forced me to shift careers and in the interim of getting healthy those loans continued to balloon. A shift to 5% would have been life changing and a capping the interest would have meant a chance to at least chip away at the principle. Instead, I get 10k... which is a drop in a pond that interest will quickly accrue back AND you've pissed off the right by giving grad students $ instead of just reforming their payments which would have caused a lot less anger. Doesn't make sense to me.

Side note, I don't mind the means testing @ the number of 125k for the 10k handout or in general. Simply because it provides an easy to explain counter point to all the right wingers going nuts. I wish it's that number is how they had approached grad loans. That said, it's dumb not to cap those people's interest levels too. For example my friends who are assistant editors and make 150k in Los Angeles are having to pay a premium to live there, and meanwhile their interest rates are 6-8% on their student loans.
 
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waruv said:
I am assuming means testing is a political call. Polling on the topic in very broad strokes is pretty supportive of some degree of loan forgiveness but that support dries up a lot without means testing. This is a baldly political decision (IMO) by Biden here so I'm not surprised he's aiming for that.

I am wondering what the angle taken on an SC challenge would be. The federal government guaranteed the loans for ages, went direct in the 90s, and there is a long history of loan forgiveness. In 2019 Donald Trump forgave all student loan debt for disabled veterans via an EO using the same law that Biden is likely using to support this EO. There has also been various over loan forgiveness EOs, mostly to students who went to for-profit or fraudulent schools. This isn't to say a lawsuit won't come and it won't reach SCOTUS, but the cat may be out of the bag and there is precedent to this - just not at the scale Biden is doing it.
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You presume the Supreme Court is doing anything in good faith at this point.
 
DownIsTheNewUp said:
You presume the Supreme Court is doing anything in good faith at this point.
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Not really - I said as much in a later reply that SCOTUS may find a new rationale to try and deem this unconstituonal. I just don't think the contexts are comparable in this case.

Biden's justification for this is turning out to be the Republican passed HEROES act to justify it - any dispute against it would likely require an aim that Biden is either not falling within the textual guidleines of the law or some other condition isn't met. Totally possible but it's a different thing than Abortion or the EPA judgments (as terrible as they are IMO) in that this was a legislative item as opposed to a departmental regulation or interpretation of constitutional law.
 
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