Political Discussion

I find this whole pardoning business distasteful, whoever has done it. Seems like Presidents on their way out have felt obliged to do it. If some miscarriage of justice has occurred, point it out and let the courts decide on a remedy. This stuff trump is pulling is banana republic type shit.
 
LeeVing said:
Curious how the commutation of Blagojevich will go over with the rural republicans in Illinois.

They HATED the guy - He was a democrat and from Chicago.

Now to see him get out is a slap in their face. I don't see Trump winning over anyone here.
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Trump was a Democrat from New York City...

TBH, most MAGA’s I know from back home will love it because it a thumb in the eye to liberals. Pardon the corrupt democratic governor to own the libs. Owning the libs is more important than any abject policy.
 
DownIsTheNewUp said:
Except, again, Bernie’s base in actually made up mostly of young people of color / young females. White men are the least likely to be supporting him of people under 40. Or so says the data. So perhaps the interpretation should be that there is a huge generational gap that has to do with the plethora of issues facing young people that older whites are insulated from.

www.salon.com

“Bernie Bro” myth persists because pundits don’t understand Twitter

A misunderstanding of social media psychology is driving media elites to keep pushing an easily disprovable stereotype
www.salon.com www.salon.com
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Yeah, I don't know how that could possibly be completely factual. I'm sure the base is there as you describe but given the wide support of the campaign (Bernie is ahead if we're talking about some polling data) that the "base" could be primarily POC seems not to be true. The numbers just wouldn't add up... but I do hope I'm wrong about those assumptions....

Maybe it's equally valid to say that the noisiest people who are often online and being eschewed forward by the media are the bullying progressive white males I'm describing. Either way. It's turned people off.

I was just getting coffee with a very progressive female colleague who is 31, who was discussing this very issue and how she has been completely turned off of supporting Sanders because of it. She is an undecided voter who would probably vote for Liz if Liz were on the ballot. So regardless of the "majority" argument the noise that has been made evident to people is something that is negative and imo Bernie would do well to speak out against forcefully and often.... but maybe he doesn't have to or want to.

Also Salon is not a reputable journalism outlet. Nor is USAToday.
The Bernie Bro myth is true if people believe it.... and they do.
 
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LeeVing said:
We vote by mail here in Oregon...I love it compared to when I lived in Illinois.
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TenderLovingKiller® said:
Same in Washington State, way better than IL. You get time to actually read and research what and who you are voting for. Though, I miss the “I Voted” sticker. I like to proudly display the completion of my civic duty.
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These are better systems. I lived in Oregon and miss the way they do it. Someone here made an argument about fraud and mail in ballots which I'm sure has some validity but I would argue that mail in makes it far more difficult to suppress the vote and the effort required to have a widespread mail in voter fraud campaign seems very unlikely when you think about the steps necessary to have a single or even 100 persons vote counted in multiple municipalities.

Voters might be more informed on average in mail in states too.
 
Ear Wax said:
I find this whole pardoning business distasteful, whoever has done it. Seems like Presidents on their way out have felt obliged to do it. If some miscarriage of justice has occurred, point it out and let the courts decide on a remedy. This stuff trump is pulling is banana republic type shit.
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I'm not against it. For example, when people had their sentences communed for minor drug infractions and got life in jail.

When used properly and to fix wrongs I support it. Trump is not doing this. And I don't support his pardons and communes what so ever.
 
DownIsTheNewUp said:
Except, again, Bernie’s base in actually made up mostly of young people of color / young females. White, straight men are the least likely to be supporting him of people under 40. Or so says the data. So perhaps the interpretation should be that there is a huge generational gap that has to do with the plethora of issues facing young people that older whites are insulated from.

www.salon.com

“Bernie Bro” myth persists because pundits don’t understand Twitter

A misunderstanding of social media psychology is driving media elites to keep pushing an easily disprovable stereotype
www.salon.com www.salon.com
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Thanks for sharing the article. I didn't realize BernieBros was sticking around as much as it is. Never really looking into the meaning behind the name either.

Also, can't say I'm surprised they like to picture Bernies base as entitled white millennials.
 
jaycee said:
Yeah, I don't know how that could possibly be completely factual. I'm sure the base is there as you describe but given the wide support of the campaign (Bernie is ahead if we're talking about some polling data) that the "base" could be primarily POC seems not to be true. The numbers just wouldn't add up... but I do hope I'm wrong about those assumptions....

Maybe it's equally valid to say that the noisiest people who are often online and being eschewed forward by the media are the bullying progressive white males I'm describing. Either way. It's turned people off.

I was just getting coffee with a very progressive female colleague who is 31, who was discussing this very issue and how she has been completely turned off of supporting Sanders because of it. She is an undecided voter who would probably vote for Liz if Liz were on the ballot. So regardless of the "majority" argument the noise that has been made evident to people is something that is negative and imo Bernie would do well to speak out against forcefully and often.... but maybe he doesn't have to or want to.

Also Salon is not a reputable journalism outlet. Nor is USAToday.
The Bernie Bro myth is true if people believe it.... and they do.
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jaycee said:
Yeah, I don't know how that could possibly be completely factual. I'm sure the base is there as you describe but given the wide support of the campaign (Bernie is ahead if we're talking about some polling data) that the "base" could be primarily POC seems not to be true. The numbers just wouldn't add up... but I do hope I'm wrong about those assumptions....

Maybe it's equally valid to say that the noisiest people who are often online and being eschewed forward by the media are the bullying progressive white males I'm describing. Either way. It's turned people off.

I was just getting coffee with a very progressive female colleague who is 31, who was discussing this very issue and how she has been completely turned off of supporting Sanders because of it. She is an undecided voter who would probably vote for Liz if Liz were on the ballot. So regardless of the "majority" argument the noise that has been made evident to people is something that is negative and imo Bernie would do well to speak out against forcefully and often.... but maybe he doesn't have to or want to.

Also Salon is not a reputable journalism outlet. Nor is USAToday.
The Bernie Bro myth is true if people believe it.... and they do.
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How about you read the article with actual data before whole sale dismissing it. I’ll pull more articles supporting it. It’s actually an excellent article too.

People believe it specifically because institutions you would likely deem more reputable than Salon have been pushing it as a narrative for 5 years. Look at how easy it was for you to dismiss what the data says— that white, straight men make up less of Bernie’s base in 2020 than young women and POC.

As to the Liz thing- it’s real but I’d argue (and so would many of my Warren supporting friends who are switching over to Bernie) that has more to do with frustration over the fact she is losing and her posioning the well with the “Bernie said a women can’t win” accusation.
 
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Vox and Vice are also problematic news outlets.

Like I said I hope what you're saying is accurate but given the number of people that support Bernie, let's just say it's a lot, it's hard to imagine how the "base" whatever that means is comprised of majority minority groups but this isn't the point anyway.

The angry crybaby white male identity associated with the Sanders campaign is real because people believe it and the campaign can point to whatever data they want about it being a conspiracy or a false narrative but people are still going to believe it... therefore it is real.

I think anyone that has ever gone onto reddit has seen examples of Bernie bullying and while it may not be fair to characterize Bernie's base as those jackasses they do exist and they have had a negative impact on the perception of Bernie and the Sanders campaign.

It may hurt the campaign to look in the mirror but it really really should
 
Indymisanthrope said:
I think the article makes a mistake by conflating the concept that “Bernie Bros” don’t make up the majority of the base with the conclusion that therefore they don’t exist.
One need look no further than the Chapo Trap House dudes and their Twitter interactions to see just one example of this phenomenon. Supporters of leftist candidates don’t get much more caustic than that.
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I agree that they exist here or there but a) the articles point is that the term Bernie Bro, by its very essence, erases his high support from both young females and young POC. It perpetuates the myth that the majority of his support comes from white men.

Furthermore- it pretends like other candidates don’t have toxic supporters. Or that Clinton didn’t have an army of venomous Twitter users.

Also, it is correct that the perception largely comes from Twitter. But that the demographics of Twitter are deeply skewed in a way that isn’t representative of the US, and essentially white wash his support to the eyes of pundants (who likely don’t know many Bernie supporters in the wealthy, elitist circles they often run in).

Lastly, is Shaun King a Bernie Bro? Or is he a BLM activist first and foremost who turned into a vocal supporter of Sanders? And if he is vocal about, say, his hatred of Bloomberg... does that hatred come from his place as a BLM leader or a Sanders supporter or both?

In other words, this shit isn’t black and white but the phrase Bernie Bro denotes a world painted only in those colors. More importantly, its function is as a weapon of the corporate media in combating Sanders momentum which means they don’t really care about where the truth of the matter lies.
 
jaycee said:
Vox and Vice are also problematic news outlets.

Like I said I hope what you're saying is accurate but given the number of people that support Bernie, let's just say it's a lot, it's hard to imagine how the "base" whatever that means is comprised of majority minority groups but this isn't the point anyway.

The angry crybaby white male identity associated with the Sanders campaign is real because people believe it and the campaign can point to whatever data they want about it being a conspiracy or a false narrative but people are still going to believe it... therefore it is real.

I think anyone that has ever gone onto reddit has seen examples of Bernie bullying and while it may not be fair to characterize Bernie's base as those jackasses they do exist and they have had a negative impact on the perception of Bernie and the Sanders campaign.

It may hurt the campaign to look in the mirror but it really really should
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Disregarding sources like Vice and Vox (which are no more problematic that WaPo) and the data within because it doesn’t fit the narrative you have grown to believe makes you no different than a Trump supporter. One can easily point to his polls numbers among Latinos and the numerous pieces published by places like NPR and Pod Saves America btw.

We agree that perception is more important than reality though.
 
DownIsTheNewUp said:
Disregarding sources like Vice and Vox (which are no more problematic that WaPo) and the data within because it doesn’t fit the narrative you have grown to believe makes you no different than a Trump supporter. One can easily point to his polls numbers among Latinos and the numerous pieces published by places like NPR and Pod Saves America btw.

We agree that perception is more important than reality though.
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smh

I never defended the WaPo (so stop putting words in my mouth) but I do think there is a journalistic integrity at the New York Times that outlets like Vox or Vice or Salon are not putting into their quips for clicks. I also think you have a faith in polling data that I do not share.

You can get as bent out of shape about the reality as you want but toxic progressive white maleism (or Bernie Broness or whatever it's called) is real because people (at minimum) perceive it. Pretending like there aren't people out there shouting down anyone that says something negative about Bernie is a failure of the campaign and the candidate imo. I wish it didn't exist but it does and the campaign and especially the candidate would do better with the people that need convincing if it aggressively dismissed the toxic people that are making the most noise.

Your anger about this has been a point of contention here and I don't need to keep rehashing it with you. You're entitled to whatever your beliefs are. I've been trying to relay that the working class folks in the Midwest in my circle have an experience that is being dismissed (even by the good guys) and I suspect their votes are going to be needed in the general by whomever the Dem candidate is. I don't need a media outlet to tell me what I'm hearing from people is wrong.

Continuing to dismiss their experience and their perceptions is a mistake.
 
jaycee said:
smh

I never defended the WaPo (so stop putting words in my mouth) but I do think there is a journalistic integrity at the New York Times that outlets like Vox or Vice or Salon are not putting into their quips for clicks. I also think you have a faith in polling data that I do not share.

You can get as bent out of shape about the reality as you want but toxic progressive white maleism (or Bernie Broness or whatever it's called) is real because people (at minimum) perceive it. Pretending like there aren't people out there shouting down anyone that says something negative about Bernie is a failure of the campaign and the candidate imo. I wish it didn't exist but it does and the campaign and especially the candidate would do better with the people that need convincing if it aggressively dismissed the toxic people that are making the most noise.

Your anger about this has been a point of contention here and I don't need to keep rehashing it with you. You're entitled to whatever your beliefs are. I've been trying to relay that the working class folks in the Midwest in my circle have an experience that is being dismissed (even by the good guys) and I suspect their votes are going to be needed in the general by whomever the Dem candidate is. I don't need a media outlet to tell me what I'm hearing from people is wrong.

Continuing to dismiss their experience and their perceptions is a mistake.
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All fair. But I would also say that, I as an East LAer who has spent a ton of time in the ground in Neveda have seen first hand how his ground game is HEAVILY and proudly Latino. And that it’s only become more so that way since 2016. So again, I’m not dismissing that Bernie Bros exist. I’m annoyed by the denialism related to the diversity of his young base. And that my Latino friends (which constitutes probably 50% of my social circle) have a deep and building resentment in regards to that.

We can leave it at that until after Nevada which will provide hard, indisputable data.
 
DownIsTheNewUp said:
All fair. But I would also say that, I as an East LAer who has spent a ton of time in the ground in Neveda have seen first hand how his ground game is HEAVILY and proudly Latino. And that it’s only become more so that way since 2016. So again, I’m not dismissing that Bernie Bros exist. I’m annoyed by the denialism related to the diversity of his young base. And that my Latino friends (which constitutes probably 50% of my social circle) have a deep and building resentment in regards to that.

We can leave it at that until after Nevada which will provide hard, indisputable data.
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Yeah I get that but I don't understand comparing Nevada with any state that borders the Great Lakes.

I wasn't denying the diversity of his "young base" I think those are significant numbers of people but the young base in East LA or NV is not the same as the "young base" everywhere and the "base" (I legit do not fully understand what that means or if it means anything) where I'm at is going to need to be more inclusive come general election time.

I've also been saying there must be a lot of white people who support Sanders given the percentage of the electorate that seems to be supporting him. There are not more black and latino voters than white voters in the U.S. The number of latino voters in the districts you are in might be outnumbering white voters. That is obviously not the case for much of America.

I'm just cautioning that the swath of land from MN to PA is not NV and in many of these places there is a strong cultural component of pragmatism. I would argue that the pragmatism of Minnesotans is actually not all that pragmatic and rooted in inequality but the people here perceive themselves as pragmatic, get along types, that are not interested in drama. I think you can see how that self-identity could be in conflict with portrayals of the Sanders campaign. Further, the progressive selling points of diversity, multicultrualism, and social inclusion of a campaign matter less to white blue collar voters in the Midwest than it might in other places. Call it racism, or ignorance, or privilege or whatever but POC and other social minorities are not what most voters focus on in this part of the world. Those are often secondary or tertiary concerns for liberal folk.

At some point, there will need to be some collaboration / interaction with these local and regional cultural narratives if social ideals are going to become federal policies. I hate to label it this way but for lack of a better term at the moment "coastal ideals" do not match up well with how people (elsewhere) perceive themselves and their needs in other parts of the country, and that's something that regardless of the candidate and how progressive they are the Dems will need to contend with.
 
Dtknuckles said:
Careful now. You better not be considering Echo Park East LA. ;)
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I mean, historically it sort of is? Training Day literally takes place in West Lake / Silverlake. And Echo Park home owners are still predominantly Latino on my side. That said, no... I was more referring to my communities in Downey, Whittier and Commerce.

It’s also worth noting that I work for a vendor in the natural foods industry. And so my work life is heavily Latino too because they literally run that scene out here (particularity Whole Foods).
 
DownIsTheNewUp said:
I mean, historically it sort of is? Training Day literally takes place in West Lake / Silverlake. And Echo Park home owners are still predominantly Latino on my side. That said, no... I was more referring to my communities in Downey, Whittier and Commerce.

It’s also worth noting that I work for a vendor in the natural foods industry. And so my work life is heavily Latino too because they literally run that scene out here (particularity Whole Foods).
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btw I lived in Upland, CA for 4 months a little over 20 years ago.

not anywhere near E. LA but on the far east side

Indymisanthrope said:
When I say "revolution!" You say "in moderation!"
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It's funny because it's true. smh. ;)
 
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