Political Discussion

yukbon said:
I mean, he's not arguing against the air here, Lee's post here

can be taken as a "fuck Biden's bullshit"

Anyone willing to not vote for Biden just because of principles or because Biden gives them the sads or whatever either doesn't remember or wasn't around for the absolute shitshow that was Ralph Nader and Bernie Sanders acting as spoilers during those Bush-the-Lesser and Trump v Hillary elections. Bush the Lesser now looks like a fucking paragon of goddamned presidential virtue against the absolute literaly fascist racist rapist foreign spy and grifter that is Donald fucking Trump, but without Nader muddying the water for Gore, he wouldn't have been president during 9/11 and everything that followed. Likewise, although Hillary did herself no favors by being Hillary (ie, unlikeable and unelectable,) Sanders absolutely kneecapped her campaign just by not being Hillary.

However you feel about Biden's policies, he's not out there literally promising to dismantle voting rights, women's rights and install himself as president for life and use his office for revenge and abuse.
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Hard disagree with this. Hillary kneecaped her own campaign. Sanders ran in the primary and did exactly what a healthy democracy should do by giving us options. When he lost, he went full on in his support of her and campaigned for her harder in many places than she did herself. Her strategy was terrible and she was not a likeable candidate. But nearly all of Sanders supporters voted for her. She lost more Obama voters to Trump than Sanders voters and the data is very clear on that. She never had the Sanders voters who didn't vote for her in the first place and never would have. No one is owed a vote. Sanders didn't run a third party campaign against her. And to blame Trump on him is ignorant of the actual facts.
 
yukbon said:
I mean, he's not arguing against the air here, Lee's post here

can be taken as a "fuck Biden's bullshit"

Anyone willing to not vote for Biden just because of principles or because Biden gives them the sads or whatever either doesn't remember or wasn't around for the absolute shitshow that was Ralph Nader and Bernie Sanders acting as spoilers during those Bush-the-Lesser and Trump v Hillary elections. Bush the Lesser now looks like a fucking paragon of goddamned presidential virtue against the absolute literaly fascist racist rapist foreign spy and grifter that is Donald fucking Trump, but without Nader muddying the water for Gore, he wouldn't have been president during 9/11 and everything that followed. Likewise, although Hillary did herself no favors by being Hillary (ie, unlikeable and unelectable,) Sanders absolutely kneecapped her campaign just by not being Hillary.

However you feel about Biden's policies, he's not out there literally promising to dismantle voting rights, women's rights and install himself as president for life and use his office for revenge and abuse.
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My comment is about Trump. I actually am of a minority opinion that given the massive struggle his presidency has been Biden has actually gotten a surprising amount of shit done.
 
Hemotep said:
Hard disagree with this. Hillary kneecaped her own campaign. Sanders ran in the primary and did exactly what a healthy democracy should do by giving us options. When he lost, he went full on in his support of her and campaigned for her harder in many places than she did herself. Her strategy was terrible and she was not a likeable candidate. But nearly all of Sanders supporters voted for her. She lost more Obama voters to Trump than Sanders voters and the data is very clear on that. She never had the Sanders voters who didn't vote for her in the first place and never would have. No one is owed a vote. Sanders didn't run a third party campaign against her. And to blame Trump on him is ignorant of the actual facts.
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100%

Hillary could have run against Mussolini, Stalin and Hitler and still would have lost. There was never any way she was winning that election and it was very obvious long before she won the Democratic nomination. Bernie was the only shot at beating Trump, but it was very clear the status quo wanted Hillary. The whole thing was like a slow motion trainwreck.
 
I also think it's worth pushing our politicians in ways that doesn't just feed into the death spiral of cynicism. Trump is a clear and present danger, and yes even Bush Jr would be better than him. That doesn't mean that Bush Jr wasn't also a nightmare. Likewise Obama needed to do better and ignored a lot of the growing social issues that were fueling this kind of resent sadomasochistic reactionary politics from taking root. Hilary to her credit actually tried to move a little bit to the left (at least campaign Hilary did) and recognized that there was some value there. Biden instead moved to the right and hasn't worked at all to try and head off the resentment that makes people turn to authoritarianism and destruction. He fuels the fire that Trump rides. Don't forget that one of the ways that Hitler came to power was by blaming the Communists. The West was only too happy to have the Fascists emerge with the same enemy. Only when Hitler turned on them did they realize that they needed to work with the Communists to beat the Fascists. And without them they never would have won. Of course the moment the war ended Churchill gives his iron curtain speech and immediately labels them the enemy again isolating them and pushing for a Cold War. Stalin was a massive piece of shit too, but that fueled his paranoia and led to even more isolationism and extreme tactics to try and maintain the system for fear of what the West would do. The outcome was tragedy and more authoritarianism. We should learn from history.
 
Hemotep said:
Hard disagree with this. Hillary kneecaped her own campaign. Sanders ran in the primary and did exactly what a healthy democracy should do by giving us options. When he lost, he went full on in his support of her and campaigned for her harder in many places than she did herself. Her strategy was terrible and she was not a likeable candidate. But nearly all of Sanders supporters voted for her. She lost more Obama voters to Trump than Sanders voters and the data is very clear on that. She never had the Sanders voters who didn't vote for her in the first place and never would have. No one is owed a vote. Sanders didn't run a third party campaign against her. And to blame Trump on him is ignorant of the actual facts.
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oh no argument that hilary lost her own campaign, on the strength of she's terrible in every fucking way that matters for people who are not brainwashed maga cultists; but to say her early campaign wasn't kneecapped by Bernie Bros (because she sucks, to be clear,) and also she and that evil crank Debbie Wasserman in the DNC did their level best to fuck Bernie is like prima facie true.
 
avecigrec said:
100%

Hillary could have run against Mussolini, Stalin and Hitler and still would have lost. There was never any way she was winning that election and it was very obvious long before she won the Democratic nomination. Bernie was the only shot at beating Trump, but it was very clear the status quo wanted Hillary. The whole thing was like a slow motion trainwreck.
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agreed, no notes
 
yukbon said:
oh no argument that hilary lost her own campaign, on the strength of she's terrible in every fucking way that matters for people who are not brainwashed maga cultists; but to say her early campaign wasn't kneecapped by Bernie Bros (because she sucks, to be clear,) and also she and that evil crank Debbie Wasserman in the DNC did their level best to fuck Bernie is like prima facie true.
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I guess I just don't buy into the Bernie Bro narrative from what I've researched on it or experienced during the campaign, but there were way more moving parts to that then I feel like typing out right now. But I do agree that it did hurt her to have someone talk about improving things for the poor in the primaries and having someone run from her left, no doubt. She's not a woman of the people. Bernie actually pulled in some non-voters and a few politically ignorant folks who jumped to Trump after Bernie was out just because he was an outsider and they saw the whole political party system as corrupt. They were ill informed voters and didn't pay any attention to the actual content of what either was really saying.

I'm in the minority in this, I suspect, but I would have taken Hillary any day over Biden and think she would have been loads better for domestic issues than him. I'd even think she'd be way better than Harris if Biden drops out. Problem is that they are both very unlikable to a big part of the electorate. The only mainstream Dem that would actually excite me a little bit these days is Whitmer. The whole party needs to learn from what's happened in Michigan. There's still problems there of course, but it's been many more steps in the right direction than any other state I can think of. And I just don't care for Newsom, he's too much like Buttigieg, in that they seem like clones from a Democrat factory programmed by McKinsey.

The problem will always be that the people who would be the best presidents would never run and those who do run want power in a way that makes them have the worst qualities to be president.
I still think that the rule should be that every president faces trial for all the crimes they committed in office after their term is up. We get to review and hold them accountable after it's over. Bush doesn't get to be a bad painter. Obama doesn't get to make Netflix series. Trump goes in a pit. Etc. That threat of post-term accountability would force them to consider the harms they inflict. I'd even be fine if we turn it over to the international courts and that just become a standard for all leaders around the globe.

I also think it would prevent some of the worst from running
 
Hemotep said:
I'm in the minority in this, I suspect, but I would have taken Hillary any day over Biden and think she would have been loads better for domestic issues than him. I'd even think she'd be way better than Harris if Biden drops out.
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Ehhhhh, I think it could've gone either way. Biden was always going to be center-right, but Hillary's approach to domestic issues is completely unknown, aside from her involvement w/ Bill in the healthcare bill they put up that was eventually killed by Gingrich et al. Which was a bullshit half-measure. I really wish the democratic party would stop trying to appease the republicans. They will never like democrats and will find fault with anything they come up with.
 
Hemotep said:
I also think it's worth pushing our politicians in ways that doesn't just feed into the death spiral of cynicism. Trump is a clear and present danger, and yes even Bush Jr would be better than him. That doesn't mean that Bush Jr wasn't also a nightmare. Likewise Obama needed to do better and ignored a lot of the growing social issues that were fueling this kind of resent sadomasochistic reactionary politics from taking root. Hilary to her credit actually tried to move a little bit to the left (at least campaign Hilary did) and recognized that there was some value there. Biden instead moved to the right and hasn't worked at all to try and head off the resentment that makes people turn to authoritarianism and destruction. He fuels the fire that Trump rides. Don't forget that one of the ways that Hitler came to power was by blaming the Communists. The West was only too happy to have the Fascists emerge with the same enemy. Only when Hitler turned on them did they realize that they needed to work with the Communists to beat the Fascists. And without them they never would have won. Of course the moment the war ended Churchill gives his iron curtain speech and immediately labels them the enemy again isolating them and pushing for a Cold War. Stalin was a massive piece of shit too, but that fueled his paranoia and led to even more isolationism and extreme tactics to try and maintain the system for fear of what the West would do. The outcome was tragedy and more authoritarianism. We should learn from history.
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Yes but let’s be clear Churchill was a bastard. A complete and utter hard right piece of shit in that sort of historically acceptable upper crust English mannered way. In a way I suppose he had to be to beat the Nazi’s but his elevation to some kind of paragon of heroism makes me physically sick.
 
Joe Mac said:
Yes but let’s be clear Churchill was a bastard. A complete and utter hard right piece of shit in that sort of historically acceptable upper crust English mannered way. In a way I suppose he had to be to beat the Nazi’s but his elevation to some kind of paragon of heroism makes me physically sick.
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Granted in comparison to Stalin he was a saint but then Stalin is one of the biggest maniacs to have ever walked the face of this earth.
 
yukbon said:
Honestly I’d seriously start looking at emigrating. Canada for preference or Spain.
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I had a meeting with several colleague yesterday to discuss. Given what we teach, we're going to be high on the target list for any educational purges, which means we won't be able to help our most vulnerable students when they need it. It's really past time that defensive strategies need to be developed to protect vulnerable people. He's already said he'll build the camps.
 
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