Political Discussion

BjorgenFjorgen said:
Long-term, yes. Care to actually dispute that?
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Sure go ahead but you're going to die on this hill

if you are willing to sacrifice lives now for some theoretical better future then again you have the privilege to avoid being sacrificed
if you are actually going out and putting your body on the line for people less privileged than you then please share your upstanding example
 
jaycee said:
Sure go ahead but you're going to die on this hill

if you are willing to sacrifice lives now for some theoretical better future then again you have the privilege to do avoid being sacrificed
if you are actually going out and putting your body on the line for people less privileged than you then please share your upstanding example
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How many lives are sacrificed to the god of private insurance in the USA every day, jaycee? How will that change under Biden?
 
BjorgenFjorgen said:
How many lives are sacrificed to the god of private insurance in the USA every day, jaycee? How will that change under Biden?
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I don't know. You tell me? It's your argument.

Is private insurance promoting white supremacy, or building internment camps, or putting people on the supreme court that want to abolish human rights and remove the ability of women to control their own bodies? Is private health insurance militarizing the police to kill more black and brown folk?

I'm not going to turn your statement about Biden causing more death than Trump into something that's besides the point. If you want to argue for the downfall of the American version of capitalism, neo-liberalism, globalism, etc. and the result sof those principles then by all means, but the fact is that the insurance companies exist with Trump or Biden and maybe even with Bernie because the president has very little power to actually alter these things by himself - so how again is Biden causing more death to people than Trump? and how is that not the ultimate in white privilege?
 
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The problem Bernie has and this is a more general problem for the left everywhere is that when push comes to shove liberals would rather someone like Trump is in charge than a democratic socialist. They like to talk shit about how terrible Trump is because it makes them feel virtuous but he is less of a threat to them because they like the status quo.

But liberals can't beat Trump, they can't beat the alt right in the new politics. Only the left can do it, but the left can only do it with support of the liberals.

Basically everything is fucked.

If Biden wins you've got no chance of defeating Trump. IMO.
 
Indymisanthrope said:
How is it going to change under Bernie though?
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Oh, I dunno. Possibly pushing for universal healthcare might help with that. Seems pretty straightfoward, indy.

jaycee said:
I don't know. You tell me? It's your argument.

Is private insurance promoting white supremacy, or building internment camps, or putting people on the supreme court that want to abolish human rights and remove the ability of women to control their own bodies? Is private health insurance militarizing the police to kill more black and brown folk?

I'm not going to turn your statement about Biden causing more death than Trump into something that's besides the point. If you want to argue for the downfall of the American version of capitalism, neo-liberalism, globalism, etc. and the result sof those principles then by all means, but the fact is that the insurance companies exist with Trump or Biden and maybe even with Bernie because the president has very little power to actually alter these things by himself - so how again is Biden causing more death to people than Trump? and how is that not the ultimate in white privilege?
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Once again, I feel like you're missing where I said "long term". Is private insurance doing those things? No. Certainly not explicitly. The structure it exists in certainly disproportionately affects people of colour and low-income people, so I'm not sure how that is better. When it costs several thousand dollars to even get tested for coronavirus in this system, and minimum-wage workers don't get sick days, who bears that brunt? How are structural inequalities built into the healthcare system going to get better, for those people or for everyone?
 
BjorgenFjorgen said:
How many lives are sacrificed to the god of private insurance in the USA every day, jaycee? How will that change under Biden?
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@jaycee and @Indymisanthrope


Presidents have most of the power concentrated in foreign policy and law enforcement. This is where they can do the most good and them most damage.

Yea Berine isn't going to get up MFA in a single term, but he will push for more progressive policies in all areas that the whole world will benefit from.
 
You know, all this talk of who the Dems are gonna get behind with a side order of the main agenda of beating Trump, I gotta say, at one point I was like, screw it, if he wins, he wins, we made it through the first 4, we can make it through the second 4 and be done with it. BUT, now I'm more worried that if he does win, him and the rest of the Republican ass-hats are going to try and change the government as we know it and push for the long term, indefinite position of having "King" Trump sitting in what used to be the White House, now renamed Trump Castle.
 
Dtknuckles said:
@jaycee and @Indymisanthrope


Presidents have most of the power concentrated in foreign policy and law enforcement. This is where they can do the most good and them most damage.

Yea Berine isn't going to get up MFA in a single term, but he will push for more progressive policies in all areas that the whole world will benefit from.
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Yes,
I don't want to speak for Indy but neither one of us have been arguing against Bernie or the good that Bernie might do but when people say things like Biden will kill more people than Trump it's incredibly problematic and short-sighted imo

BjorgenFjorgen said:
Oh, I dunno. Possibly pushing for universal healthcare might help with that. Seems pretty straightfoward, indy.


Once again, I feel like you're missing where I said "long term". Is private insurance doing those things? No. Certainly not explicitly. The structure it exists in certainly disproportionately affects people of colour and low-income people, so I'm not sure how that is better. When it costs several thousand dollars to even get tested for coronavirus in this system, and minimum-wage workers don't get sick days, who bears that brunt? How are structural inequalities built into the healthcare system going to get better, for those people or for everyone?
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Because you didn't say long-term to begin with so I'm not going to go back and qualify your statement with it
Because sacrificing people who you could protect now for an unsure better future is proving my privilege point
Because not voting for Biden because he isn't Bernie is allowing the immediate harm to go unchecked and further entrench itself

I agree 100% with everything else you are saying. The inequality isn't going to get better under Biden. The fundamentals of the system that creates the inequality that harms people isn't going away. Maybe Bernie can do something about that. I am hopeful about the possibility of that change... but ignoring the damage the present administration is implementing, which is above and beyond the basic systemic harm that has always existed, is absolute folly
 
jaycee said:
Because you didn't say long-term to begin with so I'm not going to go back and qualify your statement with it
Because sacrificing people who you could protect now for an unsure better future is proving my privilege point
Because not voting for Biden because he isn't Bernie is allowing the immediate harm to go unchecked and further entrench itself
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Since I objectively did say long term to begin with and it doesn't seem that you want to engage in good faith, I'm gonna check out here.
BjorgenFjorgen said:
Voting for a party who has continually told you that your concerns don't matter to them, but that they're the lesser of two evils for you, implicitly gives them permission to continue ignoring you. Long-term, running another moderate Dem candidate like Biden will result in more damage and death than another four years of Trump because it would mean ignoring the circumstances that led to Trump, inviting them to rise up and win again four or eight or twelve years later, whenever. It shouldn't take another moderate Dem loss in the federal to show that the status quo is not good enough.
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I just want to state for the record that while I don't agree with things people are saying and am expressing that I don't like it or am frustrated by it or stating what I think that has nothing to do with how I view anybody here as a human being.

Like I said I might get frustrated as you do with me because we disagree or are not seeing things the same way but I do think that is sort-of the nature of voicing political opinions. We all just want this to be better, we want our country(ies) to do better

I know it might feel like when I'm arguing for people to vote against Trump if that's what they have to do that I'm choosing to ignore the baseline inequality and injustice in the world. I'm not and maybe this is coming from my own place of privilege but my belief and personal experience has lead me to a place of deep cynicism about the ability to change what I see as the fundamentals of the power structure in the U.S. Maybe I'm attempting to be overly practical or something.

I do feel a moral obligation to vote to remove the Trump administration from office. If you don't I disagree but I understand where that point of view comes from.
 
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Indymisanthrope said:
Well yeah, for sure, but...him and what congress? That's what I meant by a moderate potentially finding a more willing coalition to work with in government. Not that the opposing party will suddenly be cooperative, but that one's own caucus might be more willing to play. Bernie will have several progressive allies in Congress, but not enough. Not enough to pass the sweeping overhaul legislation that will be required. We all remember how the ACA got passed, right?

Barely.

@jaycee is right, I'm not arguing against Bernie, but his election won't be a cure-all for the ills of centrism, either.
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Obviously, but you might as well start working from the most aggressive, progressive position available.
 
As someone with one foot in the white-passing privileged world and one foot in the non-white less privileged world, I've found a good rule to be to listen twice as much (or twice as hard) as you speak. I have a lot of friends on Facebook and Twitter who are fighting with each other because they aren't following this helpful communication/empathy tool. I don't want to say listening (real listening) more than you speak will solve all our problems but I think it would seriously alleviate a lot of the problems around how we discuss politics with people who we are mostly aligned with. With that said, back to listening for me. :)
 
Indymisanthrope said:
Well yeah, for sure, but...him and what congress? That's what I meant by a moderate potentially finding a more willing coalition to work with in government. Not that the opposing party will suddenly be cooperative, but that one's own caucus might be more willing to play. Bernie will have several progressive allies in Congress, but not enough. Not enough to pass the sweeping overhaul legislation that will be required. We all remember how the ACA got passed, right?

Barely.

@jaycee is right, I'm not arguing against Bernie, but his election won't be a cure-all for the ills of centrism, either.
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Here's the thing: is ANY democratic president going to have an easy time with a republican congress? I'd much rather have someone like Sanders or Warren who will swing for the fences in terms of legislation, whereas somebody like Joe will undoubtedly try to meet them in the middle.
 
ayayrawn said:
Here's the thing: is ANY democratic president going to have an easy time with a republican congress? I'd much rather have someone like Sanders of Warren who will swing for the fences in terms of legislation, whereas somebody like Joe will undoubtedly try to meet them in the middle.
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and it would at least bring more people into the fight, with Sanders re-enfranchised voters. It would open up the door to more progressive candidates in all offices.
 
The number of Bernie bros in my timeline who switched from shitting on non-Bernie-first-choicers to attempting to court them away from Biden is pretty remarkable. Deleting posts, trolls, and memes, etc. Whoof. I'd rather have a progressive than Biden, but the whole purity gatekeeping thing they have a hard-on for is pretty frustrating to watch.
 
BjorgenFjorgen said:
Obviously, but you might as well start working from the most aggressive, progressive position available.
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Wholeheartedly agree with this but I also think you shouldn’t cut off your nose in spite of your face. The system is corrupt AND Trump is a threat to many Americans wellbeing. You should vote to try to fix the corrupt system but if we fail you should still do your best to make things good as you can even if it’s not ideal.
 
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