Political Discussion

ayayrawn said:
An add to this: this strategy at this point in time risks alienating an entire generation of voters. By having their votes "left on the table" not once, but twice, a lot of enthusiastic, progressive first-time voters aged 18-35 are going to feel really burned and jaded after all is said and done.
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This is bogus.

It implies that this generation is somehow different than every other generation that has felt left out and alienated by our system.
It implies that people just join in and vote to promote the system because they agree with it.
It fails to recognize that there are a lot of people that have been trying to change things for a long time.
It also is the "if I don't get my way" thinking that is at the heart of my previous privilege comments.

If you can check out of the system that means you have the ability top do so
If you are going to live in the U.S. and not vote then it means you are privileged enough to avoid the worst of the abuse the power structure imposes on the weakest members of our society.

I've been burned and jaded for... let's see now... 7 elections.
It's not about me or you and these threats by the 18-35 (mostly white male) crowd is just as shitty imo as people who say I won't vote my principles because I'm afraid Bernie isn't electable.
 
jaycee said:
This is bogus.

It implies that this generation is somehow different than every other generation that has felt left out and alienated by our system.
It implies that people just join in and vote to promote the system because they agree with it.
It fails to recognize that there are a lot of people that have been trying to change things for a long time.
It also is the "if I don't get my way" thinking that is at the heart of my previous privilege comments.

If you can check out of the system that means you have the ability top do so
If you are going to live in the U.S. and not vote then it means you are privileged enough to avoid the worst of the abuse the power structure imposes on the weakest members of our society.

I've been burned and jaded for... let's see now... 7 elections.
It's not about me or you and these threats by the 18-35 (mostly white male) crowd is just as shitty imo as people who say I won't vote my principles because I'm afraid Bernie isn't electable.
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Is it possible for you to talk about this stuff without being condescending?
 
ayayrawn said:
Is it possible for you to talk about this stuff without being condescending?
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Not my intention. Sorry it was taken that way.

I guess I would retort is it possible for you to talk about this without saying you're going to bail out of the system if you don't get your way?
Also is it possible for you to view this election beyond your personal wants and needs?
 
ayayrawn said:
I won't be surprised when he starts trying to meet the republican congress halfway like "the good ole days" and we end up even further right than we are now.
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Here's the thing, back in the "good ole days" when everyone worked together, everyone's views were closer than they are now. Mid-20th century and before Democrats and Republicans were more or less the same. Social issues, marriage equality, voting rights, abortion, foreign policy, environmental issues? all the same. The progressive wing of the Democrat party has slowly made progress for the mainstream platform to involve a lot of those issues. That's why we can't compromise and meet halfway, because too much is at stake now.
 
jaycee said:
This is bogus.

It implies that this generation is somehow different than every other generation that has felt left out and alienated by our system.
It implies that people just join in and vote to promote the system because they agree with it.
It fails to recognize that there are a lot of people that have been trying to change things for a long time.
It also is the "if I don't get my way" thinking that is at the heart of my previous privilege comments.

If you can check out of the system that means you have the ability top do so
If you are going to live in the U.S. and not vote then it means you are privileged enough to avoid the worst of the abuse the power structure imposes on the weakest members of our society.

I've been burned and jaded for... let's see now... 7 elections.
It's not about me or you and these threats by the 18-35 (mostly white male) crowd is just as shitty imo as people who say I won't vote my principles because I'm afraid Bernie isn't electable.
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I get what you're saying about checking out of the system on a privileged side, but there are plenty of people checked out of the system on the opposite side. Many people are so fucked over by the system on a regular basis they they see absolutely no value in participating, as I'm sure you know.

So, I'm confused that you seem to imply that those privileged white kids not wanting to vote anymore are the only ones who will stop voting, because they can afford to do so. Many marginalized people don't believe it is worth participating in a system that they have a hard time imagining benefitting them.
 
jaycee said:
Not my intention. Sorry it was taken that way.

I guess I would retort is it possible for you to talk about this without saying you're going to bail out of the system if you don't get your way?
Also is it possible for you to view this election beyond your personal wants and needs?
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I'm not going to bail out of the system, as garbage as it is, that wasn't my implication. There will be people who do, though.
 
dhodo said:
I get what your saying about checking out of the system on a privileged side, but there are plenty of people checked out of the system on the opposite side. Many people are so fucked over by the system on a regular basis they they see absolutely no value in participating, as I'm sure you know.

So, I'm confused that you seem to imply that those privileged white kids not wanting to vote anymore are the only ones who will stop voting, because they can afford to do so.
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Those people on the other side were checked-out

Then Trump

Trump had a lot of disenfranchised white folks who similarly feel alienated by the system get out and vote for something different and
While I do feel that the comparison is a little unfair because a lot of those folks weren't just voting for Trump on economic issues (they're hatred of the other other has been on full display), the point stands because they are going to be voting for Trump again

Edit:
Also I totally agree that Bernie is similarly engaging people that are marginalized that are likely to continue being checked-out with a Biden or other moderate nominee
 
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Couple things I would like to interject. First, I think there is more than one way to skin an orange buffoon. I think all the hand-wringing by first the moderate and now by the progressive wing of the party is for naught. Let’s let the system play out. In my opinion, I think either group can pull together the coalition needed to beat Trump in November. That being said, I think Candidate’s matter more than policies for the majority of American voters. Joe Biden is not a good candidate, he has never excited the electorate. Bernie would generate more enthusiasm than Biden. People vote for Biden out of fear of losing to Trump they vote for Bernie because he excites and energizes this supporters.

My opinion is either can ultimately beat one of the most historically unpopular incumbent Presidents in this countries history I just think the path is narrower with Biden and it is with Bernie.

Also, while battleground States polling matters more than National Polling you can’t write off completely National polling as momentum is all connected and if candidate wins Nationally by 7-10% they would also likely win many (if not all) the battleground States.
 
Voting for a party who has continually told you that your concerns don't matter to them, but that they're the lesser of two evils for you, implicitly gives them permission to continue ignoring you. Long-term, running another moderate Dem candidate like Biden will result in more damage and death than another four years of Trump because it would mean ignoring the circumstances that led to Trump, inviting them to rise up and win again four or eight or twelve years later, whenever. It shouldn't take another moderate Dem loss in the federal to show that the status quo is not good enough.
 
Btsvinylfarm said:
I try not to be overtly political online, and really try to keep my views to myself. But I do have anxiety about this election.

I REALLY wish we could keep the DNC-conspiracy-against-Bernie shit down. As if they are the ones who are pulling strings to get Pete and Klobuchar to drop, after each had disastrously bad results in South Carolina (after poor showings in NV) - it was the right call to drop out, and certainly the Biden camp was lobbying them to do so before today; as Bernie should be doing for Warren. Also, the poster above who mentioned that delegates pledged to dropped candidates automatically go to whoever they endorse - that's simply not true and not how it works. Please don't spread disinformation to further a conspiracy theory. There's no "last ditch effort" to screw Bernie - everyone is playing by the same rules and there's nothing odd about candidates dropping days after a bad performance and endorsing a candidate they closely align with.

With that said, I'll be clear that I am truly "blue no matter who". I will gladly vote for Bernie if he wins a majority of delegates or is nominated in a brokered convention. I'd also vote for Biden, or Warren, or even (gags) Bloomberg.

But I have far more electability concerns with Bernie than others. Mainly, I'm not convinced Bernie can win on the suburbs. I don't foresee him moderating his platform for the general, so that means he's going to tell millions of Americans who are lucky enough to have good employer backed HC (like myself) that we can't keep it. He's going to tell thousands of Pennsylvania workers in the fracking industry that he would work to ensure their jobs don't exist. Me, personally? I think a universal HC system is a good idea and a benefit to American society, and I think fracking is dangerous and harmful to the environment. But I don't like his proposed ways of achieving the goals, and I worry it will turn off moderates and suburban voters that were the sole cause of the 2018 blue wave. Yes, he will bring in a lot of younger voters, but the numbers I've seen aren't enough to offset what he might lose in the 'burbs.

So I need someone from the Bernie camp to really start defending his electability, backed with data, to ease my anxiety about this. Because the primary goal in 2020 - like it or not - should be to remove Donald Trump from office. Policy goals are going to be secondary. That may suck to hear, but it's reality. 4 more years of Donald Trump is far worse to the goals of the folks in the Bernie camp than a Biden centrist Presidency.

Okay, I've expended my political discourse capital here for the year and I'll shut up and listen now.
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I too have grown somewhat worried about the suburbs as those are the exact communities that feel the benefits of Trump’s economy (high stocks and property values) that have had close to zero impact on millennials.

That said, the idea that Biden is a safe choice is wacky. A) a lot of the things that plagued Clinton record wise are true of Biden too and Trump will point right at them B) he is very clearly going senile C) he literally finished in 4th and 5th place in Iowa / NH D) he is to the right of even Clinton at a time that the majority of people under 45 consider themselves to the left of Obama (which is why Bernie was winning the under 45 vote @54% going into S.C, Warren was the overwhelming 2nd choice of that same demographic and Biden is polling at like 5%) E) the Ukraine thing

www.nytimes.com

Opinion | Bernie Sanders Can Beat Trump. Here’s the Math. (Published 2020)

Most available evidence points in the direction of a popular vote and Electoral College victory.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

open.spotify.com

Weeds 2020: The Bernie electability debate

Episode · The Weeds · Welcome to Weeds 2020! Every other Saturday Ezra and Matt will be exploring a wide range of topics related to the 2020 race. Since the Nevada caucuses, Bernie Sanders has become the clear frontrunner in the 2020 Democratic primary, spurring lots of debate over whether he...
open.spotify.com open.spotify.com

www.google.com

Why Younger Democrats Are Overwhelmingly Rejecting Biden

Do all younger Democrats have an Uncle Joe that they hate or something? Because there’s a good chance that Democrats under the age of 45 will prove crucial in p…
www.google.com www.google.com

theintercept.com

Joe Biden Is Hillary Clinton 2.0 — Democrats Would Be Mad to Nominate Him

Joe Biden backed the Iraq War, is friendly with Wall Street, supported mass incarceration, and has twice run for president unsuccessfully.
theintercept.com theintercept.com
 
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BjorgenFjorgen said:
Voting for a party who has continually told you that your concerns don't matter to them, but that they're the lesser of two evils for you, implicitly gives them permission to continue ignoring you.
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Sure does

BjorgenFjorgen said:
Long-term, running another moderate Dem candidate like Biden will result in more damage and death than another four years of Trump because it would mean ignoring the circumstances that led to Trump, inviting them to rise up and win again four or eight or twelve years later, whenever. It shouldn't take another moderate Dem loss in the federal to show that the status quo is not good enough.
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While I get that you are implying that the economic policies of moderate Dems are at the root of the problem (and they are), I think that you are ignoring the real daily damage being done to black and brown bodies, women's bodies, because of Trump.

This is what I mean about privilege.
 
Today sucks because we'll really find out what will happen in November. If Biden gets even a little bit close to Bernie in delegate counts it’s over. Bernie needs to win big in Texas, California and do very well in states like Oklahoma, Tennessee, Virginia where he isn’t expected to do well. I’m not hopeful.
 
wokeupnew said:
Today sucks because we'll really find out what will happen in November. If Biden gets even a little bit close to Bernie in delegate counts it’s over. Bernie needs to win big in Texas, California and do very well in states like Oklahoma, Tennessee, Virginia where he isn’t expected to do well. I’m not hopeful.
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I'm still trying to be hopeful. I don't think a resurgent Biden equals the end of Bernie and I think that Bloomberg is making a difficult Biden path even more difficult... at least I hope so.
 
I haven't voted since 1996 (and even then only because I was 18 and felt I should). I haven't voted because there has yet to be a candidate who represents anything remotely resembling my interests. I've matured over the years to understand that my interests are not the only ones worth considering. Still, I regret nothing. This year I voted and felt fairly energized and compelled about it. Mine and many others' interests are represented possibly for the first and last time in our lives.

If Biden gets the nomination those same interests are no longer represented. I may or may not vote in November if Biden takes the nomination. I can't imagine any degree of enthusiasm for it. I may feel compelled by the blue no matter who paradigm but it still fells like the same false dichotomy like it has always been.
 
jaycee said:
While I get that you are implying that the economic policies of moderate Dems are at the root of the problem (and they are), I think that you are ignoring the real daily damage being done to black and brown bodies, women's bodies, because of Trump.

This is what I mean about privilege.
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That famously privileged group of *checks notes* incredibly diverse Bernie supporters.
 
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