The Blue Note Thread

Was Scorpio actually grey market? I didn't know that. I think I have one or two and remember them not sounding great but don't know that i realized they were grey market releases!

Yeah, they're Grey.
They're also the ones that do the majority of old Sun Ra albums as well, so I have a bunch of Scorpios that I'll just upgrade as I go when/if they see proper reissues. And, given the haphazard nature of many Ra recordings, their lesser quality is less of an issue for his catalogue at least.
 
Yeah, they're Grey.
They're also the ones that do the majority of old Sun Ra albums as well, so I have a bunch of Scorpios that I'll just upgrade as I go when/if they see proper reissues. And, given the haphazard nature of many Ra recordings, their lesser quality is less of an issue for his catalogue at least.
hmm strange! i have a bunch of stuff marked Scorpio but they are manufactured by Rhino but that's different to the stuff that Scorpio manufactured themselves.

But I did find this article . Looks like Dave Cheppa (whose work I'm not really a fan of) cut a lot of the Scorpio stuff and says they are not grey market and Scorpio did pay to license the titles:

So, the mystery is mostly solved. Rhino and Scorpio both had reissue programs, with Scorpio being the distributor for both. Scorpio, on the other hand, reissued music from lots of different labels, including, most importantly, Blue Note, which led to speculation that Scorpio reissues might be are bootlegs or unofficial releases. David Cheppa assured me that is not the case. He told me that Scorpio paid for the rights to all its releases. Which makes sense, because otherwise, they would've been sued into oblivion by now.
I don't doubt they use digital sources and don't think they sound very good from what I remember. Think I sold any of the Scorpio BN reissues I had awhile ago.
 
Ah nice, I didnt realise that Elemental had picked this up. I imagine its really good, I have a few of their release and they're really good.
Yeah, I am listening to it again now. It looks like a GZ pressing. Standard jacket. Has some light crackle in spots, but otherwise sounds really clean. Bass goes surprisingly deep on a few tracks.

I don't know anything about this series or Elemental. Looks like there is a thread about it on SHF with some saying they are grey releases. Looks legit to me though. Regardless, album sounds good, so I'm happy with it.
 
Yeah, I am listening to it again now. It looks like a GZ pressing. Standard jacket. Has some light crackle in spots, but otherwise sounds really clean. Bass goes surprisingly deep on a few tracks.

I don't know anything about this series or Elemental. Looks like there is a thread about it on SHF with some saying they are grey releases. Looks legit to me though. Regardless, album sounds good, so I'm happy with it.
A classic Hoffman conspiracy! Zev Feldman is one of the main guys at Elemental and he literally works (or worked) for Blue Note as an archival producer. I really doubt he's hustling on the side to do grey market releases of BN albums while working for Don Was haha.
 
Discogs says Scorpio is legit and they work with both Rhino and Rainbo. Being based in NJ, I have a hard time believing they could capitalize on world copyright laws.
 
Discogs says Scorpio is legit and they work with both Rhino and Rainbo. Being based in NJ, I have a hard time believing they could capitalize on world copyright laws.
They likely used needledrops and not AAA sources in most cases, but they aren't like Waxtime or anything as far as I know.

My rule of thumb with grey market is usually if they don't have the label logos or original album artwork, it's probably a boot/grey market. If they have the BN logo and original artwork (and are located in the US) they likely aren't putting bootlegs out there.
 
They likely used needledrops and not AAA sources in most cases, but they aren't like Waxtime or anything as far as I know.

My rule of thumb with grey market is usually if they don't have the label logos or original album artwork, it's probably a boot/grey market. If they have the BN logo and original artwork (and are located in the US) they likely aren't putting bootlegs out there.
I don’t equate grey market with bootleg. The difference in copyright laws allow grey market to happen which means the rights owners aren’t being compensated the way we would expect.

Bootleg means it’s unauthorized and the rights owners were never compensated.

I wish rights owners wasn’t the way I have to phrase it. I could give two shits about Blue note
Making more money off of every album, but if the artists were getting proper compensation, I would be happy.
 
I don’t equate grey market with bootleg. The difference in copyright laws allow grey market to happen which means the rights owners aren’t being compensated the way we would expect.

Bootleg means it’s unauthorized and the rights owners were never compensated.

I wish rights owners wasn’t the way I have to phrase it. I could give two shits about Blue note
Making more money off of every album, but if the artists were getting proper compensation, I would be happy.
yea--they are different levels of legal/illegal but still kinda in the same camp for me. neither bootlegs nor grey market releases give any kind of compensation to the original rights owners. AFAIK grey market just take advantage of lax copyright laws overseas and use CDs whose rights have expired as sources. maybe they pay rights to SOMEONE but just not really sure who...
 
yea--they are different levels of legal/illegal but still kinda in the same camp for me. neither bootlegs nor grey market releases give any kind of compensation to the original rights owners. AFAIK grey market just take advantage of lax copyright laws overseas and use CDs whose rights have expired as sources. maybe they pay rights to SOMEONE but just not really sure who...
I meant more in the sense that the rights owners were compensated at some point whereas with an actual boot, not so much.

Reminds me of that Neil video where walks into a record shop finds a boot and tells the store clerk he’s taking it and the owner can call him about the fact that he ain’t paying for it.
 
A classic Hoffman conspiracy! Zev Feldman is one of the main guys at Elemental and he literally works (or worked) for Blue Note as an archival producer. I really doubt he's hustling on the side to do grey market releases of BN albums while working for Don Was haha.
Just to add, Feldman is also behind those archival Jazz reissues each year on RSD on Resonance Records. Although they are usually ridiculously priced imo, they do definitely try their best to put out a premium product from the best sources.

For the price Elemental Music is definitely recommend.
 
Just to add, Feldman is also behind those archival Jazz reissues each year on RSD on Resonance Records. Although they are usually ridiculously priced imo, they do definitely try their best to put out a premium product from the best sources.

For the price Elemental Music is definitely recommend.
good to know - thanks for the info, had no idea these were legit...

too much product flooding the market at premium prices these days so I 'try' to limit to TP or other premium reissues, but good to know for a must have title...
 
Because today is his birthday and he's synonymous with Blue Note.

Lee Morgan’s wishes on page 179 in Pannonica de Koenigswarter’s “Three Wishes” book, followed by a full page portrait of a sleeping Morgan on page 180.

1. “To be held in high esteem by my fellow jazzmen, as well as by the audiences—I mean the jazz public.”

2. “To make oodles of money, and use it wisely.”

3. “To make a wonderful husband and father.”

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good to know - thanks for the info, had no idea these were legit...

too much product flooding the market at premium prices these days so I 'try' to limit to TP or other premium reissues, but good to know for a must have title...
They are legit, but not all that good. Digital sources, pretty much BN75 quality.
 
I don’t equate grey market with bootleg. The difference in copyright laws allow grey market to happen which means the rights owners aren’t being compensated the way we would expect.

Bootleg means it’s unauthorized and the rights owners were never compensated.

I wish rights owners wasn’t the way I have to phrase it. I could give two shits about Blue note
Making more money off of every album, but if the artists were getting proper compensation, I would be happy.
In practice, the difference is not very relevant.

Grey market means you have a recording that has lapsed into public domain. Neither the artist nor label, or music publisher, gets a dime.

It should be noted that a recording may be public domain, but the master is owned by the label/rights holder and always will be.

Also, a 'remaster' renews copyright, as it is not the same work that was originally issued.

To make it easy, there was a legal case a few years back over Beatles CDs that were being sold in Walmart which were 'grey market', the contention being that they were public domain. In fact, the company that pressed those CDs won the case, because they used needle drops of the original vinyl - which are public domain. The later CD reissues are not, and had they used those, they would have lost. They did have to pay the publishing company, though, and song copyright is different and longer that recording copyright.

Either way, neither the artist nor the record label have authorized it.

Bootleg is generally the publishing of a performance that has been obtained or recorded without permission, or an unauthorized publishing of a work that is still under copyright. Again, the artist, label and publisher get nothing.

Most bootlegs are illegal pressings taken from a CD still under copyright protection. Labels like Waxtime operate in countries where prosecution is lax.

I also don't give a rat's ass about BN making more money. Bear in mind that the artists on BN were paid session fees and get no royalties from the recordings. Never did. That is why songwriting credit was so important back in the day, that was the only long term revenue stream.
 
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