The NBA Thread

[MikeH]

I doubt it will happen but I'm hoping the Wolves can lure D'Angello Rusell to MN (and dump Wiggins somewhere). The franchise will still be trash with trash ownership but at least they could be fun with some potential with a KAT - Russell core

DLo just got maxed by the Warriors. How are the Wolves gonna get him? Supposedly the Warriors will trade DLo at some point soon but not sure the Wolves have any assets that the Warriors want....

Taylor and Dolan should trade notes on their awful NBA ownership moves haha. We're both pretty sorry franchises at this point but somehow we don't have any bad long-term contracts on our books anymore and we are in a weaker conference. If Rosas can trade Wiggins without taking anybody awful back, I'd be ready to give him the Executive of the Year award.

 

[MikeH]

Sure.... but how the team, ownership, mgmt, fanbase, whatever didn't realize they were in rebuild mode when Amare Stoudamire was the lead act is their own fault.

Amare was an absolute beast when he first got here. Everyone forgets how good he was. People said the same things about Amare as they are saying now with us not wanting to offer KD a max offer..."he'll bring legitimacy to the Knicks and other superstars will want to follow!" And then his injuries caught up to him and all our cap space was tied up in his awful contract and trying to win now with Melo. Looking at things in hindsight is very different than being there at the time. The Nets/Brooklyn trade was widely regarded as a good move for Brooklyn when it first happened. Now it's one of the worst trades in the history of the NBA...

The Knicks tried to win now for the past decade. It didn't work. Now we have one of the youngest teams in the NBA, flexible cap space, finally have a top 3 pick and some other promising young players, and the most future 1st round picks that I have ever seen us have in my lifetime. It's actually a rebuild now.

 

[jaycee]

DLo just got maxed by the Warriors. How are the Wolves gonna get him? Supposedly the Warriors will trade DLo at some point soon but not sure the Wolves have any assets that the Warriors want....

Taylor and Dolan should trade notes on their awful NBA ownership moves haha. We're both pretty sorry franchises at this point but somehow we don't have any bad long-term contracts on our books anymore and we are in a weaker conference. If Rosas can trade Wiggins without taking anybody awful back, I'd be ready to give him the Executive of the Year award.

easy tiger - i didn't see the latest Woj update

 

[MikeH]

easy tiger - i didn't see the latest Woj update

Ah it happened last night. There has been so much craziness in free agency this year, hard to keep up with. Supposedly Wiggins is furious now that the Wolves have been trying to trade him. And Marc Stein says the Warriors will try to trade DLo. Just not sure where he'd go now and who has the assets for him.

 

[jaycee]

Amare was an absolute beast when he first got here. Everyone forgets how good he was. People said the same things about Amare as they are saying now with us not wanting to offer KD a max offer..."he'll bring legitimacy to the Knicks and other superstars will want to follow!" And then his injuries caught up to him and all our cap space was tied up in his awful contract and trying to win now with Melo. Looking at things in hindsight is very different than being there at the time. The Nets/Brooklyn trade was widely regarded as a good move for Brooklyn when it first happened. Now it's one of the worst trades in the history of the NBA...

The Knicks tried to win now for the past decade. It didn't work. Now we have one of the youngest teams in the NBA, flexible cap space, finally have a top 3 pick and some other promising young players, and the most future 1st round picks that I have ever seen us have in my lifetime. It's actually a rebuild now.

They signed Amare only because they lost out on Lebron. I get it - Melo was there.

 

[Space Wanderer]

I think as soon as KD tore his achilles, KD lost all leverage in what team him and Kyrie were going to team up on.

This is the part that doesn't make sense to me. Why did KD have to team up with Kyrie? Why would he have lost any "leverage" when he had a 5 year max offer to stay in Golden State? Before Durant got injured most people though that Kyrie was going to the Nets and that KD was fine going to the Knicks without him, how did the injury change that calculus for Durant (in a way that wouldn't suggest just staying with the Warriors)? Why couldn't Durant have chosen another max player to come to the Knicks with him? I haven't yet been able to connect the dots (or heard anyone else connect them) between the injury and the logic behind Nets over Knicks/Warriors/Clippers/whatever.

Again, I'm willing to assume that, at the time of the Porzingis trade, the Knicks were justified in believing that they could sign both of those guys (although we must not lose sight of the fact that the reason they had to do that was to get rid of the horrible Hardaway contract that Mills himself signed, and which even at the time was obviously a terrible mistake). That doesn't change the fact that it ended up as a disaster. The most charitable you can be to the Knicks as an organization is to believe everything they say about the KP situation, and believe that if not for Durant's injury he (and perhaps Kyrie or another max player) would have joined this team. Based on their track record I don't think they deserve the benefit of the doubt on the first point, and for the life of my I can't see any reason to believe that the second point is true. Moreover, they could potentially have had one max slot without trading KP, and been entering this offseason with Robinson, a returning KP, Knox and Barrett looking for a star player, maybe a point guard. Would Kyrie have thought that was a better situation than the Nets?

The Knicks aren't being laughed at here because they're choosing to draft and develop young players instead of chasing name-brand free agents. They're being laughed at because they already drafted a superstar, then aggravated and alienated him before trading him away to chase name-brand free agents, and the whole thing blew up in their face so horribly that their GM issued an apology to the entire fan base hours into free agency.

 

[MikeH]

They signed Amare only because they lost out on Lebron. I get it - Melo was there.

They signed Amare to try to convince Bron to sign here actually. The Cavs tried to trade for Stat because Bron wanted him in Cleveland. The injuries were the big thing to potentially hold Amare back but when his contract was uninsurable because of his injury concerns, Knicks never should have signed him. It's fairly similar to the KD situation...Amare was a beast though until his injuries shut him down. Melo wanted to come to NY because Amare was here. When Melo came here, Stoudemire was 2nd in the league in ppg.

 

[tvham]

Resident Warriors fan checking in...our best case scenario was going to be sign KD and Klay to the max, punt on 2019-20 as they rehabbed and the rest of the team rested from five straight finals runs.

With KD gone, I like the D-Lo move in the short term. They are probably still a top 5-6 team in the West and will go to the playoffs next year. From there, who knows? I feel ownership wasn't ready to give up on the first season at the Chase Center without the hope of KD and Klay being there for year 2. Now losing Iggy, this one stings.

 

[jaycee]

They signed Amare to try to convince Bron to sign here actually. The Cavs tried to trade for Stat because Bron wanted him in Cleveland. The injuries were the big thing to potentially hold Amare back but when his contract was uninsurable because of his injury concerns, Knicks never should have signed him. It's fairly similar to the KD situation...Amare was a beast though until his injuries shut him down. Melo wanted to come to NY because Amare was here. When Melo came here, Stoudemire was 2nd in the league in ppg.

I mean believe what you want. I don't care. The Amare signing was bad. Lebron never wanted to play there and Amare was a consulation prize. Isaiah Thomas was a terrible decision. Phil Jackson was a terrible decision. KD never wanted to play there. The top players don't want to play for organizations that have screwy ownership and/or are stingy with funds.

The organization will continue to fail until Dolan is forced out and that won't happen until he starts losing money.

 

[MikeH]

This is the part that doesn't make sense to me. Why did KD have to team up with Kyrie? Why would he have lost any "leverage" when he had a 5 year max offer to stay in Golden State? Before Durant got injured most people though that Kyrie was going to the Nets and that KD was fine going to the Knicks without him, how did the injury change that calculus for Durant (in a way that wouldn't suggest just staying with the Warriors)? Why couldn't Durant have chosen another max player to come to the Knicks with him? I haven't yet been able to connect the dots (or heard anyone else connect them) between the injury and the logic behind Nets over Knicks/Warriors/Clippers/whatever.

Again, I'm willing to assume that, at the time of the Porzingis trade, the Knicks were justified in believing that they could sign both of those guys (although we must not lose sight of the fact that the reason they had to do that was to get rid of the horrible Hardaway contract that Mills himself signed, and which even at the time was obviously a terrible mistake). That doesn't change the fact that it ended up as a disaster. The most charitable you can be to the Knicks as an organization is to believe everything they say about the KP situation, and believe that if not for Durant's injury he (and perhaps Kyrie or another max player) would have joined this team. Based on their track record I don't think they deserve the benefit of the doubt on the first point, and for the life of my I can't see any reason to believe that the second point is true. Moreover, they could potentially have had one max slot without trading KP, and been entering this offseason with Robinson, a returning KP, Knox and Barrett looking for a star player, maybe a point guard. Would Kyrie have thought that was a better situation than the Nets?

The Knicks aren't being laughed at here because they're choosing to draft and develop young players instead of chasing name-brand free agents. They're being laughed at because they already drafted a superstar, then aggravated and alienated him before trading him away to chase name-brand free agents, and the whole thing blew up in their face so horribly that their GM issued an apology to the entire fan base hours into free agency.

KD wanted to team up with Kyrie and he wanted to leave Golden State because they were never going to be his team. They were always Steph's team and there was nowhere else to go with that team. It was no longer a challenge, and I still think that Draymond blow up made KD leave. It made zero sense for him to go to a team with no other all star help, so he was always going to try to team up with another free agent star and he's really close with Kyrie. Look at the teams that were rumored on KD's list. It was all teams that had 2 max spots open or could get to 2 max spots. A healthy KD would have been able to recruit anybody he wanted. A post-achilles KD lost that leverage because guys aren't sure if he would return to full strength and a maxed out injured KD prevents most teams from adding more star talent.

The Knicks could have gotten to 1 max space even without trading Timmy I believe. They had to move Lee and renounce a bunch of other cap holds. The Nets had to trade 2 1st rounders to get rid of Crabbe's awful contract to get to 2 max slots. Knicks would have done the same if KD was 100% coming here. There were rumors too that KP didn't want to play with KD because KP wanted to be the face of the franchise. When you look at the teams he had on his short list of "demanded" teams he would accept trades to, they were all teams that would have made him the face of the franchise.

And again, people are severely overestimating the value of KP post acl-tear. The Kings wouldn't trade us Fox or Bagley for KP. Whatever team traded for KP would have had to max him for 5 years without having seen him ever play a game in their uniform.

 

[jaycee]

Happy for Portland. I hope Lillard gets a chance to play for a title at some point

Wonder if the Curry deal has anything to do with the Miami - Philly - Butler -Dragic not quite yet deal?

 

[MikeH]

I mean believe what you want. I don't care. The Amare signing was bad. Lebron never wanted to play there and Amare was a consulation prize. Isaiah Thomas was a terrible decision. Phil Jackson was a terrible decision. KD never wanted to play there. The top players don't want to play for organizations that have screwy ownership and/or are stingy with funds.

The organization will continue to fail until Dolan is forced out and that won't happen until he starts losing money.

Amare was signed before Bron...so he wasn't a consolation prize. He was signed to try to convince Bron to sign here. It failed. Yes, the signing was bad because of injuries. Nobody is disputing that. I'm saying people said the Amar'e signing was the sign that big name FA wanted to play in NY. It's 100% the same situation as the KD situation was this summer so it's just funny to see people criticize us for signing an injured superstar in Amare but also criticizing us for NOT signing an injured superstar.

If Dolan is anything, it's not stingy. He's an idiot. Nobody is disputing that. And he was way too involved as an owner, just as Taylor is for the Wolves. It's why we had such a bad span of 20 years with Dolan at the helm. I'm happy that we are finally trying to build through youth and the draft and it seems like we have a plan finally for once and are sticking with it despite shiny objects being dangled at us like Jimmy Butler or other guys who wanted trades and were set to become FA. There's nothing worse than someone who knows nothing about basketball trying to run a franchise as we both know full well haha. Hoping that both the Wolves and Knicks turn things around. I love KAT and would hate to see him want out in the near future.

Wonder if the Curry deal has anything to do with the Miami - Philly - Butler -Dragic not quite yet deal?

I'm surprised Curry signed for so low. I believe the Miami/Dallas trade was dead because they didn't want to take Dragic. Curry eats into Dallas' cap more and I don't think they can afford to take back Dragic now even if Miami sweetened the deal. I think trading Whiteside gets Miami closer to being able to keep Dragic and still getting Jimmy Butler.

 

[Woob_woob]

Do you disagree that KD winning a championship in a Knicks uniform would have completely changed his legacy? Top 5 is a bit hyperbolic, but it would have completely gotten rid of the whole snake/hardest road meme about him.

I think that happens no matter what uniform he is wearing. Even with the snake storyline hes still a top 25ish player of all time.

 

[Woob_woob]

Amare was an absolute beast when he first got here. Everyone forgets how good he was. People said the same things about Amare as they are saying now with us not wanting to offer KD a max offer..."he'll bring legitimacy to the Knicks and other superstars will want to follow!" And then his injuries caught up to him and all our cap space was tied up in his awful contract and trying to win now with Melo. Looking at things in hindsight is very different than being there at the time. The Nets/Brooklyn trade was widely regarded as a good move for Brooklyn when it first happened. Now it's one of the worst trades in the history of the NBA...

The Knicks tried to win now for the past decade. It didn't work. Now we have one of the youngest teams in the NBA, flexible cap space, finally have a top 3 pick and some other promising young players, and the most future 1st round picks that I have ever seen us have in my lifetime. It's actually a rebuild now.

Signing Amare is nowhere near the same importance as signing KD. One was a nice allstar, the other was the greatest player in the world while healthy.

 

[Space Wanderer]

KD wanted to team up with Kyrie and he wanted to leave Golden State because they were never going to be his team. They were always Steph's team and there was nowhere else to go with that team. It was no longer a challenge, and I still think that Draymond blow up made KD leave. It made zero sense for him to go to a team with no other all star help, so he was always going to try to team up with another free agent star and he's really close with Kyrie. Look at the teams that were rumored on KD's list. It was all teams that had 2 max spots open or could get to 2 max spots. A healthy KD would have been able to recruit anybody he wanted. A post-achilles KD lost that leverage because guys aren't sure if he would return to full strength and a maxed out injured KD prevents most teams from adding more star talent.

There are a lot of arguably contradictory premises in this paragraph. KD wanted to team up with Kyrie because they're close, but if he was healthy he would/could recruit anyone else if Kyrie wanted to go elsewhere. KD wanted to be on a team that would be "his" team, but wouldn't want to be on a team without another all-star free agent. And again, to me none of them add up to the injury being a sufficient factor to make him change his mind on the Knicks. He wants wherever he goes to be "his" team, but now that he's injured he has no choice but to follow Kyrie wherever Kyrie wants to go? This doesn't make sense to me; I find it impossible to start from the premise that pre-injury Durant was a near-lock to sign with the Knicks and end up with the conclusion that post-injury Durant went to the Nets instead. It seems far more likely to me that he was never as sold on the Knicks as we wanted to think he was, and that he (and Kyrie) see the Brooklyn franchise as a better platform from which to launch the next phase of their careers, and if they see it that way now it's hard for me to fathom why they would see it differently if Durant hadn't gotten hurt. The Knicks ownership and management is a laughingstock, and players absolutely do care about it.

 

[MikeH]

while healthy.

He suffered the worst injury a basketball player can suffer. And I'm not comparing Amar'e to KD as players. But the narrative is awfully similar. I don't think an achilles torn KD would have gotten other FA to come here until he proved he was healthy (so 2 years from now most likely). The rest of our team is too young and currently not good enough for any other one max FA to want to come here and be able to make a playoff push. The Nets proved that their team can win without a superstar, so Kyrie, perhaps rightfully, thought that even if KD doesn't come back to 100%, he can still win here. My guess is that the Nets win a similar amount of games this year as they did last and don't get past the 1st round if they even make the playoffs.

The Knicks are in year 2 of a very similar rebuild to the Nets. I understand why people shit on the Knicks...I really do. But I am happy that we seem to have a plan and are sticking to it for the first time in 20 years. Sign young players to short term deals where we still get their rights. Acquire draft picks. Build through that and go from there. We don't have the assets to make pushing for the 8th seed worth it right now.

 

[MikeH]

There are a lot of arguably contradictory premises in this paragraph. KD wanted to team up with Kyrie because they're close, but if he was healthy he would/could recruit anyone else if Kyrie wanted to go elsewhere. KD wanted to be on a team that would be "his" team, but wouldn't want to be on a team without another all-star free agent. And again, to me none of them add up to the injury being a sufficient factor to make him change his mind on the Knicks. He wants wherever he goes to be "his" team, but now that he's injured he has no choice but to follow Kyrie wherever Kyrie wants to go? This doesn't make sense to me; I find it impossible to start from the premise that pre-injury Durant was a near-lock to sign with the Knicks and end up with the conclusion that post-injury Durant went to the Nets instead. It seems far more likely to me that he was never as sold on the Knicks as we wanted to think he was, and that he (and Kyrie) see the Brooklyn franchise as a better platform from which to launch the next phase of their careers, and if they see it that way now it's hard for me to fathom why they would see it differently if Durant hadn't gotten hurt. The Knicks ownership and management is a laughingstock, and players absolutely do care about it.

KD would have been in the drivers seat had he been healthy because he's the better player. If healthy KD and Kyrie came to the Knicks, it would 100% have been KD's team, just like how the Cavs were Bron's team and not Kyrie's. The Nets are a win now team that proved they can win without a superstar player. Kyrie going to the Nets with KD out this year is more likely to go to the playoffs than the Knicks would be without healthy KD. The Knicks with only Kyrie probably wouldn't have made the playoffs this year. We are too early in transition. Nobody wanted to go to the Nets either 1 year into their rebuild. It makes a ton of sense to me...Had KD been healthy and wanted to go to the Knicks, Kyrie likely would have joined because the Knicks had enough assets to try to trade for a 3rd superstar or potentially run with the young squad for a year and they still would have made the playoffs in year 1 with KD healthy.

Knicks ownership is a laughing stock. You won't find me arguing with that. Their management is actually respected around the league believe it or not with Perry. Zach Lowe and others people who are plugged into the NBA have all said that players really don't care about Dolan one way or another. Players want to go to teams where the owners aren't afraid to open their checkbooks to help the team win. It's the only thing Dolan is good for. If the Thunder hadn't been so stingy that they didn't want to pay Harden the difference of 4 million or whatever it was, I doubt KD would have left.

Anywho, I'm not sure we'll ever agree on this and I know I'm more optimistic for the Knicks than anybody on here...but that's fine. I want Dolan to sell as much as the next Knicks fan. It isn't happening. In the meantime, I don't mind that we are now trying to build the right way and if we strike out on injured FA, it's fine.

 

[Woob_woob]

He suffered the worst injury a basketball player can suffer

Agreed, but it's also not a NBA death sentence like it used to be.

And I'm not comparing Amar'e to KD as players. But the narrative is awfully similar.

Not even close imo.

I don't think an achilles torn KD would have gotten other FA to come here until he proved he was healthy (so 2 years from now most likely). The rest of our team is too young and currently not good enough for any other one max FA to want to come here and be able to make a playoff push.

That's the point. Youd have KD locked in and would still be bad for two years, meaning youd get high lottery picks that would help KD when hes healthy.

The Nets proved that their team can win without a superstar,

Getting bounced in the first round isnt winning and they had an Allstar this year.

My guess is that the Nets win a similar amount of games this year as they did last and don't get past the 1st round if they even make the playoffs.

It's better to not make the playoffs than get bounced in the first round.

 

[MikeH]

Agreed, but it's also not a NBA death sentence like it used to be.

Not even close imo.


That's the point. Youd have KD locked in and would still be bad for two years, meaning youd get high lottery picks that would help KD when hes healthy.

Getting bounced in the first round isnt winning and they had an Allstar this year.

It's better to not make the playoffs than get bounced in the first round.

It is still an NBA death sentence though...maybe not quite as bad as it was in the future but Dominique Wilkins is the only guy in the history of the NBA to come back to close to full strength after an achilles tear. People are saying "if anybody can come back from it, it's KD!" which is just not true. It has nothing to do with KD.

KD was never going to come here alone. We would have also tried to sign Kyrie or another max player at which point we likely would have gotten closer to the playoffs while KD was out and either just missed or gotten an 8th seed and gotten knocked out in the first round.

The Nets do not have their own pick next season, so their record does not affect their team going forward. Them getting knocked out in the first round gives their players more playoff experience and there is no downside for them.

Also, Woj is saying today that the Knicks not wanting to offer KD the max didn't affect his decision to go to BK and his injury and Kyrie deciding on going to Brooklyn was more of a deciding factor.

 

[Woob_woob]

The Nets do not have their own pick next season, so their record does not affect their team going forward. Them getting knocked out in the first round gives their players more playoff experience and there is no downside for them.

Damn they are still bleeding picks to Boston? That has to be the worst trade in sports history.