Vinyl Me Please Classics

Turbo said:
Ironic that RAM is being derided because it allegedly sounds like a copy of an earlier era while at the same time deriding a jazz album that embraced the modern sounds of the time.

For the record, RAM is an amazing album IMO. If I compare it to DP's discography, I rate it behind Discovery but pretty much on par (although very different from) Homework.
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Random Access Memories is a great album but Discovery is definitely their masterpiece/best album! 💯❤️💎

It would be amazing if VMP made Discovery an Essentials ROTM! It will probably never happen but I would be blown and away and incredibly happy if Discover was an Essentials ROTM!!!
 
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MadLucas said:
You know what else doesn't sound like "80's" jazz? Most of the albums released by ECM. For reference, check out Bill Frisell, Gary Burton, Marc Johnson...

...but not Pat Metheny. For some people it falls under that category, but, for me, it's an extension of what he was doing in as early as '75.
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Clint Howard said:
I have some ECM titles from the 80s and have to agree with you but pointing out exceptions to the rule really just further proves the rule.

I mean I could make some more wildly contentious statements that for the most part ring true despite the exceptions like.. 80s rap is generally some super basic shit. Like nursery rhyme scheme shit over the most basic of beats, and as a result.. a lot of it does nothing for me other than seeing where it's come from. Does that mean there's not amazing 80s rap? No, not at all.. but the blanket statement generally rings true. And I hate all blanket statements.
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Sorry, I mis-spoke.
My intended argument was that people tend to lazily lump what PMG was doing in the 80's with other 80's jazz trends, but the fact is all the pieces were there far earlier, particularly the heavy use of synthesizers combined with decidedly and intentionally non-swing feels and rhythms: Carribean, Brazilian, straight-4 feels...
Some people I have spoken with tend to hear an album like Still Life (Talking) or Letter From Home and say "yup, 80's jazz" without going back and listening to Pat Metheny Group, Watercolors, American Garage, or some of what he was doing with Eberhard Weber for any context of what his music evolved into. It wasn't trendy, though he did use technology, and it certainly wasn't as sudden and specific to the era, but a natural evolution of a blueprint.
My point is that I didn't say avoid PM or PMG because it proves a rule, but instead is coincidental and parallel to the rule. I don't think those records should be lumped in with shit like Dave Koz, Miles 80's albums (which decidedly DID pander to trend), or most of what GRP was releasing (as least from what I have heard).
 
Turbo said:
Ironic that RAM is being derided because it allegedly sounds like a copy of an earlier era while at the same time deriding a jazz album that embraced the modern sounds of the time.

For the record, RAM is an amazing album IMO. If I compare it to DP's discography, I rate it behind Discovery but pretty much on par (although very different from) Homework.
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Yeah, good point — but keep in mind the 80s is fetishized in most forms of pop culture, particularly cinema and even politics (sadly) but for some reason derided in music. Being "80s" musically is considered tantamount to lameness, which I don't really agree with. In jazz circles it seems anything post late 60s is considered lame which I never really got.

As for my RAM take, it's their best album as far as songwriting and sequencing, it's really the first time they tried to make a proper album not just an electronic album. I do prefer Discovery overall which was much more groundbreaking but I have to respect the craft of RAM.
 
zombie.modernist said:
Yeah, good point — but keep in mind the 80s is fetishized in most forms of pop culture, particularly cinema and even politics (sadly) but for some reason derided in music. Being "80s" musically is considered tantamount to lameness, which I don't really agree with. In jazz circles it seems anything post late 60s is considered lame which I never really got.

As for my RAM take, it's their best album as far as songwriting and sequencing, it's really the first time they tried to make a proper album not just an electronic album. I do prefer Discovery overall which was much more groundbreaking but I have to respect the craft of RAM.
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Can only speak for myself, but I don't dislike most 80's music because it's "lame". I think I don't like how most of the newer (at the time) processing sounded. This is true across multiple genres for me, even gospel. There are many exceptions to that. In any case a lot of the times its just that I didn't like the sound. Perhaps that's phycological? Perhaps because I grew up through it and it was my parents' music? I don't think so though, cause there is a lot I like as well.

Also, as far as Mr. Hands, I didn't get it because I listened and didn't like it. That's all. My reference to being an 80's jazz album was more because I was thrown by idea of 80's music of any kind fitting into what the classics catalogue has generally included. It's simply not what I signed up for. I'm still relatively young and I remember hearing most of it the first time. I don't consider that classic at all. I also referenced the processing. It just has a sound that tons music across that time has and I simply don't like it. Hard to put my finger on.
 
VMPKJ said:
Can only speak for myself, but I don't dislike most 80's music because it's "lame". I think I don't like how most of the newer (at the time) processing sounded. This is true across multiple genres for me, even gospel. There are many exceptions to that. In any case a lot of the times its just that I didn't like the sound. Perhaps that's phycological? Perhaps because I grew up through it and it was my parents' music? I don't think so though, cause there is a lot I like as well.

Also, as far as Mr. Hands, I didn't get it because I listened and didn't like it. That's all. My reference to being an 80's jazz album was more because I was thrown by idea of 80's music of any kind fitting into what the classics catalogue has generally included. It's simply not what I signed up for. I'm still relatively young and I remember hearing most of it the first time. I don't consider that classic at all. I also referenced the processing. It just has a sound that tons music across that time has and I simply don't like it. Hard to put my finger on.
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80s music can also a hard pill to swallow for me as well, despite not being alive in the decade. Part of my aversion to the 80s sound can sometimes be in the production / mastering / engineering that leaned towards bright and thin. Still, sometimes it takes a bit of pushing through to like stuff, and I think lots of the corny synths and such that need to be tolerated in 80s music are just generally mocked instead of being accepted as products of their time. It's just particularly ironic to me as lots of 80s visual media is readily accepted flaws and all. I'll admit I didn't care too much that Mr. Hands was sold out last month, but my biggest problem is I just don't find enough to grab onto, feeling more like a light salad than a full meal.
 
zombie.modernist said:
80s music can also a hard pill to swallow for me as well, despite not being alive in the decade. Part of my aversion to the 80s sound can sometimes be in the production / mastering / engineering that leaned towards bright and thin. ...
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Also a lot of techniques and or equipment for effecting sound was either new or being changed around a lot. In some ways I suppose a lot of advances happened, but the result is that too often the execution is just not great, or the equipment not yet producing a great result. There were some really great and some really bad reverb and delay sounds in that decade. Also (like any time period) it gets too trendy and gets overdone. Dubbing vocals for example was way overdone in some genres and often very unmusical in execution. It was like the auto-tune of today. When it's done well it's cool, but it's way to easy to just do that cause that's what everyone is doing.
 
VMPKJ said:
Also a lot of techniques and or equipment for effecting sound was either new or being changed around a lot. In some ways I suppose a lot of advances happened, but the result is that too often the execution is just not great, or the equipment not yet producing a great result. There were some really great and some really bad reverb and delay sounds in that decade. Also (like any time period) it gets too trendy and gets overdone. Dubbing vocals for example was way overdone in some genres and often very unmusical in execution. It was like the auto-tune of today. When it's done well it's cool, but it's way to easy to just do that cause that's what everyone is doing.
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But remember, this was all hot shit for the time. Everyone wanted to be new and futuristic now that synths were starting to take off. Look at the damn gated drum sound - how many of me and my other drummer pals purchased equipment based on Sir Phil's sound? It was also the Reagan era and we were all worried every five minutes that we were all going to die in a nuclear holocaust. Be glad you were dead then, Mr. Zombie.

The autotune analogy is apt.

I forgot to add my two cents on Metheny. His "sound" was already there on Watercolors. But as I said above, there are a crap load of excellent records from the 80s in the jazz realm that are not smooth jazz. I feel like we are all agreeing with this maxim, no?
 
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VMPKJ said:
Also a lot of techniques and or equipment for effecting sound was either new or being changed around a lot. In some ways I suppose a lot of advances happened, but the result is that too often the execution is just not great, or the equipment not yet producing a great result. There were some really great and some really bad reverb and delay sounds in that decade. Also (like any time period) it gets too trendy and gets overdone. Dubbing vocals for example was way overdone in some genres and often very unmusical in execution. It was like the auto-tune of today. When it's done well it's cool, but it's way to easy to just do that cause that's what everyone is doing.
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Yeah, can't wait to see this convo hashed out on the merits of T-Pain 😂
 
JonnyH said:
I cried the first time I heard him sing "Stay With Me"
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Yeah he's talented. And his autotune stuff was unique and pretty revolutionary when it hit the scene. In general the distorted T-Pain autotone style used by Kanye, Future Young Thug etc is way more tolerable to me than the software being used for it's intended purpose, creating bland and sterile pop vocals.

So what I'm saying is when I'm middle aged I'll be the one defending T-Pain.
 
zombie.modernist said:
Yeah he's talented. And his autotune stuff was unique and pretty revolutionary when it hit the scene. In general the distorted T-Pain autotone style used by Kanye, Future Young Thug etc is way more tolerable to me than the software being used for it's intended purpose, creating bland and sterile pop vocals.

So what I'm saying is when I'm middle aged I'll be the one defending T-Pain.
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I think this is an example of a good use of new techniques. It can be overdone sometimes though.

Also totally agree with auto-tune as a "fix". Yuck.
 
zombie.modernist said:
Yeah he's talented. And his autotune stuff was unique and pretty revolutionary when it hit the scene. In general the distorted T-Pain autotone style used by Kanye, Future Young Thug etc is way more tolerable to me than the software being used for it's intended purpose, creating bland and sterile pop vocals.

So what I'm saying is when I'm middle aged I'll be the one defending T-Pain.
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Weren't Chromeo and others in that scene using vocoders and auto-tune like stuff for years by the point T-Pain came into the picture?
 
Clint Howard said:
Weren't Chromeo and others in that scene using vocoders and auto-tune like stuff for years by the point T-Pain came into the picture?
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Probably a vocoder with them, no? But that's more of a throwback sound than anything. I think T-Pain is the source of the current wave of autotune, he worked with Kanye on 808s, and inspired the rest of the rappers to use it. I guess if you want to give someone else the nod, maybe Cher, but I can't see many soundcloud rappers citing Cher as an influence.
 
dhodo said:
Did storf really say that the March album from 1982 will be the "biggest classics release yet"? If so that makes it a real head-scratcher as far as great albums go. I feel like doing Thriller, which doesn't really fit with most other classics pics, is about as likely as doing the Bill Cosby album from that year, right? So what is it going to be? Marvin Gaye? Seems like a weird choice given any pick of his albums.
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My instinct is strongly hinting that it might be this:
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Are we getting our clues mixed up? I don’t think Storf ever said the 1982 release was the biggest Classics release yet.
 
TCell said:
Last Hint:

Storf: "But the album WAS in the first VMP book."

Pretty sure that locks in Aretha Now as it's the only one in the book!

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Yaaaaaaaas! But I’m not locked in for Classics at the moment! When I re-joined, I only have R&HH and Essentials in my account. I’m going to email CS and make sure I get into the slot for this Classics ROTM! I can’t miss out on anymore Classics ROTM yet alone this stunning album!
 
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