Your Fave is Problematic

[ranbalam]

I had an 18-month stretch where I supported myself 100% through the arts (poetry shows and workshops, chapbook sales and some sound tech gigs) but I pretty much needed to be on the road for 11 to 12 of those months to make that viable - which was fun as can be at the time, but also completely not viable these days with family and a mortgage.

Wow, that's a lot of time on the road. I do think it's fantastic that it worked out for awhile for you though.

I've had friends with varying degrees of success in the arts. A bassist friend of mine toured for a couple years and at the end of it, he had nothing. He quit his day job and was a hired gun for a regional band, and so it was a ton of time on the road for a break-even type living situation. So he fulfilled a dream and had a harsh realization all at the same time. Another friend worked his way from rehearsal tech with Seger all the way to touring tech with the Stones. That's amazing, and yet his story is such a rarity.

 

[avecigrec]

Wow, that's a lot of time on the road. I do think it's fantastic that it worked out for awhile for you though.

I've had friends with varying degrees of success in the arts. A bassist friend of mine toured for a couple years and at the end of it, he had nothing. He quit his day job and was a hired gun for a regional band, and so it was a ton of time on the road for a break-even type living situation. So he fulfilled a dream and had a harsh realization all at the same time. Another friend worked his way from rehearsal tech with Seger all the way to touring tech with the Stones. That's amazing, and yet his story is such a rarity.

My 18-month period mentioned above is after 8 years of doing 2-4 months of losing money and break-even touring - so it certainly took a lot of work to get to that point, but way cool, for sure, that it worked for me while it did. Definitely had a blast! (during the losing money era too)

 

[ranbalam]

My 18-month period mentioned above is after 8 years of doing 2-4 months of losing money and break-even touring - so it certainly took a lot of work to get to that point, but way cool, for sure, that it worked for me while it did. Definitely had a blast! (during the losing money era too)

That's some dedication there, I applaud you for that.

 

[Bull Shannon]

This was the perfect morning to open twitter and find my favorite meme format:

 

[nolalady]

Completely agree with this. It accounts for the shockingly low amounts of political or protest music in one of the most inequitable periods in history.

YES absolutely. We don't even have any sort of commentary like a Monty Python to lampoon the inequality.

 

[Joe Mac]

YES absolutely. We don't even have any sort of commentary like a Monty Python to lampoon the inequality.

And they were all relatively well off middle class types. What is glaringly apparent is the lack of articulate and angry firebrand figures from the lower classes getting an airing.

 

[jamieanderson1968]

Kevin Spacey facing charges of four counts of sexual assault | CNN

US actor Kevin Spacey is facing charges of four counts of sexual assault against three men, Britain’s Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) said on Thursday.

www.cnn.com

Hey quick question, what's a shorter word for

We already have a Wordle thread

 

[nolalady]

Kevin Spacey facing charges of four counts of sexual assault | CNN

US actor Kevin Spacey is facing charges of four counts of sexual assault against three men, Britain’s Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) said on Thursday.

www.cnn.com

Hey quick question, what's a shorter word for

I wonder if he'll actually do time.

 

[gaporter]

Haven't seen anyone on here mentioning the recent controversy over Big Thief announcing shows in Tel Aviv. Obviously they aren't the first (Radiohead and Nick Cave come to mind) but I will say their statement where they try to justify it only made it worse imo. I'm not a big enough fan of theirs to "cancel" them over this or anything (and obviously I still listen to Radiohead, so I have no room to talk anyways), but I don't know that donating to Palestinians while playing in the country that's oppressing them really does much to make it go down any smoother.

The whole thing rubs me the wrong way and sums up a lot of issues I have with the "love beyond disagreement" mentality of left-wing politics that basically says that you can do things that actively go against the beliefs you claim to hold as long as you have "good intentions." I don't know, like I said, I don't care enough about Big Thief for it to bother me on a personal level, but I'm curious if this at all hurts their credibility with others on here who I know are more invested in them than I am.

 

[wokeupnew]

Haven't seen anyone on here mentioning the recent controversy over Big Thief announcing shows in Tel Aviv. Obviously they aren't the first (Radiohead and Nick Cave come to mind) but I will say their statement where they try to justify it only made it worse imo. I'm not a big enough fan of theirs to "cancel" them over this or anything (and obviously I still listen to Radiohead, so I have no room to talk anyways), but I don't know that donating to Palestinians while playing in the country that's oppressing them really does much to make it go down any smoother.

The whole thing rubs me the wrong way and sums up a lot of issues I have with the "love beyond disagreement" mentality of left-wing politics that basically says that you can do things that actively go against the beliefs you claim to hold as long as you have "good intentions." I don't know, like I said, I don't care enough about Big Thief for it to bother me on a personal level, but I'm curious if this at all hurts their credibility with others on here who I know are more invested in them than I am.

yeah I saw this. I don't think this cancels them in my eyes. They have a member who is from Tel Aviv (I honestly didn't know that before this controversy). It's kind of slimy. If I were them, just don't play the shows because doing so and then donating to charities of the place they're playing seems shortsighted. It feels like trying to be "carbon neutral" but with playing in a place that is controversial. Like "woke neutral"? idk. I also think by acknowledging it added more fuel to fire around these shows.

Big Thief also removed merch because a symbol was controversial on one of their shirts - Big Thief apologise for t-shirt design with "reckless, offensive imagery" Again, I don't think anyone would have known or found out had they not said anything and just stopped selling it. I'm not calling for them to sweep things under the rug, but they like to be very transparent about everything. So them being very up front about the Israel/Palestine shows is not surprising.

 

[waruv]

It's a sensitive subject and I'm not going to pretend I have enough of a stake in it to have real value to add. As a very general statement, I'm hesitant to judge artists for performing in areas with problematic political and human rights decisions. I certainly will laud an artist making a statement on not performing in a place due to it, but there's a lot of musicians who have played questionable locales either in foreign markets or domestically (I mean...have you seen what Texas and Florida are doing to disadvantaged populations recently?) - especially when it's a real opportunity to earn an income to produce art and music for a wider population. In the case of Big Thief, one of their band members resided there, and I'm not even gonna pretend to say I'd know how it'd feel if I moved to the UK and my bandmates refused to let me play in my home country because of the U.S.' atrocities.

Like, even just sticking to Israel, we have the RHCP, Justin Bieber, 50 Cent, Maroon 5, and the Black Eyed Peas doing concerts there in 2021-2023. Go back over 5 years you got a huge range: Jon Bon Jovi, Distrubed, Eurovision on the whole, Brian Wilson, Ozzy Osbourne, Herbie Hancock, Shakira, Alice in Chains, etc.

I dunno, there's no real good answer here for me - I do know there's a gap for me between what Big Thief is doing (performing in the home country of a band member and donating proceeds of the show elsewhere) and what, say, a slew of pop stars playing shows for Russian oligarchs did.

Edit: This may be more of a "don't say anything and call attention to it" issue than anything else, but Big Thief are prone to speak their minds as a band.

 

[wokeupnew]

It's a sensitive subject and I'm not going to pretend I have enough of a stake in it to have real value to add. As a very general statement, I'm hesitant to judge artists for performing in areas with problematic political and human rights decisions. I certainly will laud an artist making a statement on not performing in a place due to it, but there's a lot of musicians who have played questionable locales either in foreign markets or domestically (I mean...have you seen what Texas and Florida are doing to disadvantaged populations recently?) - especially when it's a real opportunity to earn an income to produce art and music for a wider population. In the case of Big Thief, one of their band members resided there, and I'm not even gonna pretend to say I'd know how it'd feel if I moved to the UK and my bandmates refused to let me play in my home country because of the U.S.' atrocities.

Like, even just sticking to Israel, we have the RHCP, Justin Bieber, 50 Cent, Maroon 5, and the Black Eyed Peas doing concerts there in 2021-2023. Go back over 5 years you got a huge range: Jon Bon Jovi, Distrubed, Eurovision on the whole, Brian Wilson, Ozzy Osbourne, Herbie Hancock, Shakira, Alice in Chains, etc.

I dunno, there's no real good answer here for me - I do know there's a gap for me between what Big Thief is doing (performing in the home country of a band member and donating proceeds of the show elsewhere) and what, say, a slew of pop stars playing shows for Russian oligarchs did.

Yeah it definitely opens up a can of worms about how if you can’t play there then you can’t play in some places in the US or elsewhere. It has me thinking about how “there’s no ethical consumption under capitalism” but with touring. Like I would imagine a good portion of the fans seeing them at those shows in Israel are probably not fans of the regime, but then they can’t see them play? Big Thief probably have some fans in North Korea, but they’re definitely not going to play there. These shows are somewhere on a spectrum of totally unacceptable and acceptable. I don’t know where it is though. But it is messy either way.

 

[Joe Mac]

Yeah it definitely opens up a can of worms about how if you can’t play there then you can’t play in some places in the US or elsewhere. It has me thinking about how “there’s no ethical consumption under capitalism” but with touring. Like I would imagine a good portion of the fans seeing them at those shows in Israel are probably not fans of the regime, but then they can’t see them play? Big Thief probably have some fans in North Korea, but they’re definitely not going to play there. These shows are somewhere on a spectrum of totally unacceptable and acceptable. I don’t know where it is though. But it is messy either way.

I don’t think that you can compare areas of the US to a country that actively and brazenly violating international law to the point that it’s effectively saying it doesn’t care. I’m not judging people playing there but that’s not a fair comparison. Playing in Russia, Saudi or China would be a more true comparison.

 

[Bull Shannon]

“We’re aware some people may have a problem with what we’re doing, and even we feel a little weird about what we’re doing, but we’re choosing to go ahead and do it” is just a weird genre of apology.

 

[Joe Mac]

I don’t think that you can compare areas of the US to a country that actively and brazenly violating international law to the point that it’s effectively saying it doesn’t care. I’m not judging people playing there but that’s not a fair comparison. Playing in Russia, Saudi or China would be a more true comparison.

On a wider point Israel is a really difficult one. One the one hand they’re brazenly ignoring international law and effectively annexing neighbouring territory and leaving the Palestine people living in dreadful conditions on so many levels. I have a lot of sympathy for the bds movement and feel there can be a lot of false equivalence of criticism of Israel automatically being anti semitic. On the other hand the left has such an endemic problem with anti semitism that you have to be really careful who you are siding with.

 

[wokeupnew]

lol so much for that

 

[Melt Face Molly Drop]

lol so much for that

tHeY bOwEd DoWn tO tHe wOkE mOb

 

[waruv]

Not asking this to be inflammatory, even if it sometimes feels that everything said on this subject is inherently controversial: if it's not okay to play shows there, why is it okay to employ a current resident citizen in the band?

Again, only my relatively low stakes and not super informed take. I think you can separate it to some extent. I don't know much about Max - he's not exactly prone to interviews, but there is a gap between someone who was born in a place, is a resident, and has family there but is not an active supporter of the country's controversial actions and an artist who is a full throated advocate for those actions.

There's a hypothetical where you can have Max in the band and have no impact on the relationship with Israel or impact - two shows in Tel Aviv is almost certainly going to convey some level of visual and financial support even if the band donates their proceeds elsewhere.

There's also the somewhat ugly inverse of the question: is Big Thief anti-Semitic if they refuse to employ a Jewish person because of where he was born?

I do get the question though, to me there's nuance but I get if there's not for folks.

 

[waruv]

lol so much for that

You know, as I said I'm ambivalent on it, but given the "response", maybe for the best they didn't play for that particular party and apologies for the sourcing, I have some doubts to its objectivity

Clam Reports

Global news and comprehensive daily news reports

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Barbie's Facebook page read today (Thursday): "Big Thief canceled their show in Israel !!! We did not call, we did not ask, there was no producer who contacted and bought the show. It came from them, a request to perform in Israel, and that after canceling following the corona. BDS has been with us for 20 years, it has not changed since the last time they were in the country. The insults on Instagram, just made you fold / scared. Some paid protesters outside the hall in Europe made your managers kneel, 'and the solution' - let's skip Israel, let's give up our audience, where it's less important.

"I do not ask you to lie on the fence for us or fight our wars, a simple little and legitimate thing I demand: Hales with the hypocrisy !!! And there is much! The world is far from perfect, and in Israel the injustices exist for centuries, Threats, intimidation or boycotts. In fact, your cancellation only made me sad for you, a bunch of poor, spineless musicians who are afraid of their own shadow. Like everyone else.Wish you all the evil in the world just as you did to your fan base in the country, and hope that just as you rose like this you will go down, and become another passing episode.I learned that I have nothing but my family, my country and my people, and no son of a bitch will break it With the blessing of the people of Israel alive, strong, and no weakness will break it.And to you, dear audience, you will find the bands to love who know how to respect and appreciate the person and not despise him as the band Big Thief did.Cancellations will be made automatically within 14 days to your credit card. "

 

[Melt Face Molly Drop]

You know, as I said I'm ambivalent on it, but given the "response", maybe for the best they didn't play for that particular party and apologies for the sourcing, I have some doubts to its objectivity

Clam Reports

Global news and comprehensive daily news reports

newsrnd.com

Barbie's Facebook page read today (Thursday): "Big Thief canceled their show in Israel !!! We did not call, we did not ask, there was no producer who contacted and bought the show. It came from them, a request to perform in Israel, and that after canceling following the corona. BDS has been with us for 20 years, it has not changed since the last time they were in the country. The insults on Instagram, just made you fold / scared. Some paid protesters outside the hall in Europe made your managers kneel, 'and the solution' - let's skip Israel, let's give up our audience, where it's less important.

"I do not ask you to lie on the fence for us or fight our wars, a simple little and legitimate thing I demand: Hales with the hypocrisy !!! And there is much! The world is far from perfect, and in Israel the injustices exist for centuries, Threats, intimidation or boycotts. In fact, your cancellation only made me sad for you, a bunch of poor, spineless musicians who are afraid of their own shadow. Like everyone else.Wish you all the evil in the world just as you did to your fan base in the country, and hope that just as you rose like this you will go down, and become another passing episode.I learned that I have nothing but my family, my country and my people, and no son of a bitch will break it With the blessing of the people of Israel alive, strong, and no weakness will break it.And to you, dear audience, you will find the bands to love who know how to respect and appreciate the person and not despise him as the band Big Thief did.Cancellations will be made automatically within 14 days to your credit card. "

Yeah, wishing someone all the evil in the world isn't exactly taking the high road. Probably for the best. This is the kind of band that's never really made a "stand", so to kind of get in the middle of this one is perplexing to say the least.