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Mather said:
It's interesting that by the stats it's only 7 db (I didn't actually check the stats) because in practice it's showing as almost double that on my amp. I'm lucky I have the -10 db attenuators on the amp already or there's no chance it could handle the output of this thing combined with the 2M Black
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Is the amp's knob actually delineated in db? It's a logarithmic scale so I don't think it would work very well for a linear control.

7db is over 2x the volume.
 
kvetcha said:
Is the amp's knob actually delineated in db? It's a logarithmic scale so I don't think it would work very well for a linear control.

7db is over 2x the volume.
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Okay that explains it, it's math. I hate math. No further questions.

But in terms of hot carts, yes even with the Rega Aria on a few albums the bass notes would actually be too much for the digital circuitry and I'd get popping, so I added the attenuators years ago and that solved the issue, I tested those albums when I installed the Parasound and despite the added 7 db the attenuators still did the trick on those albums. But I took them off just to see and yeah when those bass notes hit the amp just fully distorted. So the Black is mucho hot. Never had the issue with any other carts.
 
Mather said:
Okay that explains it, it's math. I hate math. No further questions.

But in terms of hot carts, yes even with the Rega Aria on a few albums the bass notes would actually be too much for the digital circuitry and I'd get popping, so I added the attenuators years ago and that solved the issue, I tested those albums when I installed the Parasound and despite the added 7 db the attenuators still did the trick on those albums. But I took them off just to see and yeah when those bass notes hit the amp just fully distorted. So the Black is mucho hot. Never had the issue with any other carts.
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I don’t mind maths but the word logarithmic has that effect on me too.

“Yes sir, I believe you. No more questions…”
 
Joe Mac said:
I don’t mind maths but the word logarithmic has that effect on me too.

“Yes sir, I believe you. No more questions…”
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The thing that's kinda wild to me is, if I didn't have the attenuators, then I'd be at ear splitting volume at like one quarter volume on the dial. My tv is comfortable at 50 on the dial, streaming is about the same, vinyl would be like 20-25. It would barely even be on at that point. The funny thing is I swear the amp sounds better with a bit of volume output, so I'm not sure I'd actually want it operating at such a low level.
 
Mather said:
The thing that's kinda wild to me is, if I didn't have the attenuators, then I'd be at ear splitting volume at like one quarter volume on the dial. My tv is comfortable at 50 on the dial, streaming is about the same, vinyl would be like 20-25. It would barely even be on at that point. The funny thing is I swear the amp sounds better with a bit of volume output, so I'm not sure I'd actually want it operating at such a low level.
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Yeah and my feeling is that my system always sounds better with the PS audio preamp, rather than the phono stage, doing the heavy leg work. Perhaps that will change when I eventually upgrade the phono stage but a part of me thinks not.

That’s wild because my vinyl is up at 39/100 on the preamp but my CDs and any streaming through it’s DAC are often down at 23. I never had the 2M on this system though, I got the first Grado around the time I got the pre and power amps.
 
Joe Mac said:
Yeah and my feeling is that my system always sounds better with the PS audio preamp, rather than the phono stage, doing the heavy leg work. Perhaps that will change when I eventually upgrade the phono stage but a part of me thinks not.

That’s wild because my vinyl is up at 39/100 on the preamp but my CDs and any streaming through it’s DAC are often down at 23. I never had the 2M on this system though, I got the first Grado around the time I got the pre and power amps.
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Yeah I can set input RMS on my amp, 1, 2 or 4. 1 provides the best signal to noise ratio so that's where I've got it. I tried all of them back when I got the Black and the clipping happened no matter where it was set prior to the attenuators so for signal to noise I just kept it at 1. Although it's so loud now I may actually swap to 2 just so the amp has to do a bit more work.
 
Mather said:
The thing that's kinda wild to me is, if I didn't have the attenuators, then I'd be at ear splitting volume at like one quarter volume on the dial. My tv is comfortable at 50 on the dial, streaming is about the same, vinyl would be like 20-25. It would barely even be on at that point. The funny thing is I swear the amp sounds better with a bit of volume output, so I'm not sure I'd actually want it operating at such a low level.
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Just go MC and you won’t have that problem anymore. :)
 
Mather said:
Oh, I will. Mark my words, I will.

However I'm currently in burn in mode coupled with I have a new record collection mode because even my worst pressings (Titanic Rising) sound good now, in some cases better than good. And these are like, deeply not good pressings. So that's fun.
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Oh interesting. So it’s not just accentuating the flaws?
 
kvetcha said:
Is the amp's knob actually delineated in db? It's a logarithmic scale so I don't think it would work very well for a linear control.

7db is over 2x the volume.
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it’s fours times the power output, but not quite twice the volume/spl. A 3db increase, generally, doubles the wattage or driver’s displacement. 3db more again doubles it.

But to get to twice the volume (seeming “twice as loud”) would require a 10db power increase.
 
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Joe Mac said:
Oh interesting. So it’s not just accentuating the flaws?
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No it's not actually, the big thing with this stage is it's giving every instrument air to breath and almost... layers? Like everything comes in to your ear at a slightly different plane if that makes sense? So those crappy flat pressings somehow have a bit of life to them. I mean I think it's like whenever you do a stage upgrade, or cart or amp, the level of everything, bad and good goes up. It's not like the worst pressings get closer to the best pressings, but the level of how bad they are gets raised. With this thing they're now actually decent to good in some cases. And in a vacuum if you weren't comparing them to the best stuff, you'd probably think they sound pretty good. But then when you compare, yeah then they get smoked. But it's strange to hear stuff that used to be flat across the front of my speakers, now actually floating out into the room when I didn't think that was possible.
 
HayesWeighsIn said:
@Mather I know hours are still low, but anything noteworthy in terms of speed stability or imaging on the Classic vs the Pro-Ject?
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Well the VPI is actually running a little fast out of the box. About 1.2% right now. I'm going to keep an eye on that, I'm not sure how adjustments work on that but I doubt it's a huge deal to get it dialed back a bit. I'd imagine the belt slackening a little will probably take care of that. The biggest thing that I can take away from it so far that I can easily differentiate from the stage upgrades is the speed and precision of the tracking is noticeable. Every single little detail is getting picked up. Electronic music, snare rolls, percussion in general, it's almost digital in it's precision. I know the "I'm hearing things I've never heard before" stuff is hyperbolic at this point but like, there are details that I absolutely had not heard before that are showing up. The imaging is exceptionally good but I think a lot of that is probably down to the stage, hard to tell. But the VPI tracks incredibly well, I had a couple of pretty warped discs on there and the tonearm was surfing all over the place but I didn't hear a single thing. Pops and clicks have been minimized for sure, they're still there but they're more in the background. I'm not sure if that's the table or the stage.

My only issue with the table so far is the tonearm lifting arm is bloody awful. Sometimes pauses, drops too fast, doesn't drop at all. I'm gunna let it settle and see if it calms down but that little thing sucks currently.
 
Mather said:
It's interesting that by the stats it's only 7 db (I didn't actually check the stats) because in practice it's showing as almost double that on my amp. I'm lucky I have the -10 db attenuators on the amp already or there's no chance it could handle the output of this thing combined with the 2M Black
Click to expand...
Most higher end phono stages are geared towards MC cartridges. The Parasound has lots of gain there too, but there are lots of cartridges that can use it. I’d have to think the .2 mV A/T9 (there’s a .5 and a .2) would be about perfect.
 
Mather said:
Well the VPI is actually running a little fast out of the box. About 1.2% right now. I'm going to keep an eye on that, I'm not sure how adjustments work on that but I doubt it's a huge deal to get it dialed back a bit. I'd imagine the belt slackening a little will probably take care of that. The biggest thing that I can take away from it so far that I can easily differentiate from the stage upgrades is the speed and precision of the tracking is noticeable. Every single little detail is getting picked up. Electronic music, snare rolls, percussion in general, it's almost digital in it's precision. I know the "I'm hearing things I've never heard before" stuff is hyperbolic at this point but like, there are details that I absolutely had not heard before that are showing up. The imaging is exceptionally good but I think a lot of that is probably down to the stage, hard to tell. But the VPI tracks incredibly well, I had a couple of pretty warped discs on there and the tonearm was surfing all over the place but I didn't hear a single thing. Pops and clicks have been minimized for sure, they're still there but they're more in the background. I'm not sure if that's the table or the stage.

My only issue with the table so far is the tonearm lifting arm is bloody awful. Sometimes pauses, drops too fast, doesn't drop at all. I'm gunna let it settle and see if it calms down but that little thing sucks currently.
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You can adjust the speed by picking a different groove on the platter for the belt to ride in.
 
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