Hip Hop

dhodo said:
I dunno, I don't see how this gesture helps the smaller guys I guess. The idea that any small artist could negotiate a better contract just because Kanye is saying don't do what I did (when he became a billionaire) is hard for me to believe. If he's saying everyone should just be independent, that sure is easy for a rich person to say. But it isn't always that easy. Being an independent musician can be a serious struggle even for relatively well known ones. That's one of the reasons labels exist.
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It's why they used to exist
 
Dead C said:
It's why they used to exist
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Let's not pretend it isn't still part of it. Not everyone can make it as an independent musician who could make it as a label musician. I'm not saying it is remotely commonly a purely symbiotic relationship, but some people would rather (or even need to) have a label handle some things and put up capital than do it themselves. Big difference between corporate labels and small labels of course but it is a part of both. That's why purely independent artists are so impressive to me, and even they usually got their name known as part of a small label before they went out on their own.

Edit: I'm not trying to oversimplify it or defend abusive label contracts, that's why I said one of the reasons.
 
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Listened to FKTG while taking a delivery earlier. Wasn’t really feeling it. Front Lines stood out but overall not the Conway I’m looking for. Wish NWMTW would show up already though because that one is great.
 
dhodo said:
Let's not pretend it isn't still part of it. Not everyone can make it as an independent musician who could make it as a label musician. I'm not saying it is remotely commonly a purely symbiotic relationship, but some people would rather (or even need to) have a label handle some things and put up capital than do it themselves. Big difference between corporate labels and small labels of course but it is a part of both. That's why purely independent artists are so impressive to me, and even they usually got their name known as part of a small label before they went out on their own.
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I don't disagree, but I'm not listening to a lot of major label artists, so that might be why it doesn't feel very relevant to me. Plus, labels like Drag City have always split profits with artists, so, those artists are still being smart about their contracts and ownership.

A lot of the label artists got signed off of independent buzz and came into it with more leverage. Frank Ocean literally dropped his own shit after having it shelved, and it worked out alright for him. I'm not a fan of Hopsin, but labels will destroy artists careers by shelving their projects, locking them into contracts, and forcing them into creative stasis, like the Raiders did with Marcus Allen. I think that labels might be getting waaay too much credit in a climate where they have largely become obsolete, and your earlier comment feels too critical and dismissive of anyone who isn't completely aware of predatory practices by major labels. We're discussing hip hop music. Not everyone is aware of what they are signing or giving up, when this is an industry that has exploited and tossed aside artists from less fortunate backgrounds since the beginning.

I've watched Breakfast Club interviews and Joe Budden interviews where they flat out ask artists if they know whether or not they are in 360 deals and the artists have zero idea. You think Lil Pump jumped into this game as some financial genius? These artists get exploited and to write them off as ignorant because everyone should know this by now, doesn't feel like it really takes into account each individual's background or circumstances. As mentioned earlier, there are a lot of parallels with the sports industry and, especially, the NFL. Brian Bosworth gets a lot of shit, but that guy came in getting hyped up, hurt himself, was forced to play through it, wound up with permanent injuries and then was tossed aside. He's made it somewhat of a mission to warn younger players to protect themselves. A lot of cats come out of this shit broke in the end with nothing. The same is true in sports where they are treated like champions, believe that money and support will last forever, and, after it's all said and done, have to accept that they were always disposable and wind up with nothing.

Similarly, look at the contract that Scottie Pippen got locked into and took, because he wanted to take care of his family? NO, not everyone has this level of awareness and nuance in what they are signing. Some people are desperate. And just like in sports, the OGs that have been through it are responsible for pointing out the mistakes that they've made along the way and what they've learned through this. It's their responsibility, because the first wave got FUCKED. They know better, now. I'm not a Jay Z fan, but he's created a template for artists to own their own wealth and invest in themselves. Know your worth.

I don't agree that this is ignorance on Kanye's part, or that he's not taking into consideration what opportunities other artists do or do not have. I think this is very much about the awareness of the position that a lot of artists are in and about how they are willing to sign away stability and their futures for a quick check. We've already seen how that's turned out. The experiment has been done and the results are in. Also, foras much shit as Ye deserves to have thrown at him, nobody wanted his music and, if he had played it safe, he would have never moved beyond simply making beats for other artists.

The reality is that, if a label is coming to you in 2020, there's a good chance that you already have a buzz around you. They always want the less risky move and are happy to build off whatever they've already created for them with a promise to take them "to the next level." That's not necessarily a bad move to work WITH them, but question why they want you and make sure that the contract reflects that and doesn't hand everything over.

Back in the day, you'd need a label to put you on the radio, or nobody would even hear you. You'd need the label to get you on MTV. And that shit works still, to a degree, but what percentage of people listen to the radio and watch MTV? 100% of a smaller market can, financially, equate to a tiny percentage of a much larger market. So, the individual really has to determine which market they want to be in and which direction they really want to take with their work. If you are less of an "artist" and want to be more of a celebrity, that changes things, too. Macklemore was championed as an "independent" artist, but he already had money and actually hired the machine of a major (Warner? I think), so they did all that heavy lifting. So, if you want to be Macklemore or HUGE, then of course you go that route, but even he leveraged whatever he had to utilize them, while remaining in control of his finances and ownership. If you take your independent film to a major studio, they're going to cut it up, turn it into their own bullshit, and either push a blockbuster that succeeds, or one that never sees the light of day. This is also about creative control. So... yeah, it's a choice, but ti's not one that's so cut an dry as it once was. It's a LOT easier to have a platform in 2020.

Majors don't really develop artists like they used to back in the day. So, while you're talking about the small group that can afford to operate independently, I believe that the group they are willing to invest in at that level is much smaller. You don't need money for studio time anymore. You don't need to take an advance and then owe a label for the rest of your life, after they've paid for your travel and studio time, etc. It's still a predatory move and labels are still moving up on kids like that fox in Pinocchio. If you don't own your masters or some sort of rights to your work, then you don't really own shit. They need to know how it turns out and negotiate better contracts from the beginning. They need to weigh the pros and cons and, these days, signing to a label when it's been proven that you can get your own access to production tools and exposure without them, makes a lot less sense.

Joey Bada$$ didn't sign with Jay Z. He built his own shit. Griselda had Jay and Eminem come to them and only signed very specific management deals and limited contracts with them, without ever agreeing to hand over creative control. If Those dudes signed a full on standard contract with Shady, think about how long they would be waiting in the background to drop anything. It's Gunn who folks like Al.Divino credit with changing the game and providing them with a template to follow. Those are the guys they are studying now.

I think Kanye is a wingnut and have always believed that he's overrated. That's my personal opinion. He says a lot of reckless shit and I don't doubt that he's doing some of that here, but labels do very little of what they used to and bring much less value. Do they have the power to put someone on quick? Sure. But they don't have the power to shut folks out like they once did and they are far from the only game in town, anymore. They didn't listen to the warnings of digital music infiltrating and fucked themselves believing in the fallacy of their own invincibility and eternal relevancy. Encouraging artist to place more value onto themselves, be more cautious with signing away their rights, and refuse predatory contracts is a positive no matter how I look at it.
 
Dead C said:
I don't disagree, but I'm not listening to a lot of major label artists, so that might be why it doesn't feel very relevant to me. Plus, labels like Drag City have always split profits with artists, so, those artists are still being smart about their contracts and ownership.

A lot of the label artists got signed off of independent buzz and came into it with more leverage. Frank Ocean literally dropped his own shit after having it shelved, and it worked out alright for him. I'm not a fan of Hopsin, but labels will destroy artists careers by shelving their projects, locking them into contracts, and forcing them into creative stasis, like the Raiders did with Marcus Allen. I think that labels might be getting waaay too much credit in a climate where they have largely become obsolete, and your earlier comment feels too critical and dismissive of anyone who isn't completely aware of predatory practices by major labels. We're discussing hip hop music. Not everyone is aware of what they are signing or giving up, when this is an industry that has exploited and tossed aside artists from less fortunate backgrounds since the beginning.

I've watched Breakfast Club interviews and Joe Budden interviews where they flat out ask artists if they know whether or not they are in 360 deals and the artists have zero idea. You think Lil Pump jumped into this game as some financial genius? These artists get exploited and to write them off as ignorant because everyone should know this by now, doesn't feel like it really takes into account each individual's background or circumstances. As mentioned earlier, there are a lot of parallels with the sports industry and, especially, the NFL. Brian Bosworth gets a lot of shit, but that guy came in getting hyped up, hurt himself, was forced to play through it, wound up with permanent injuries and then was tossed aside. He's made it somewhat of a mission to warn younger players to protect themselves. A lot of cats come out of this shit broke in the end with nothing. The same is true in sports where they are treated like champions, believe that money and support will last forever, and, after it's all said and done, have to accept that they were always disposable and wind up with nothing.

Similarly, look at the contract that Scottie Pippen got locked into and took, because he wanted to take care of his family? NO, not everyone has this level of awareness and nuance in what they are signing. Some people are desperate. And just like in sports, the OGs that have been through it are responsible for pointing out the mistakes that they've made along the way and what they've learned through this. It's their responsibility, because the first wave got FUCKED. They know better, now. I'm not a Jay Z fan, but he's created a template for artists to own their own wealth and invest in themselves. Know your worth.

I don't agree that this is ignorance on Kanye's part, or that he's not taking into consideration what opportunities other artists do or do not have. I think this is very much about the awareness of the position that a lot of artists are in and about how they are willing to sign away stability and their futures for a quick check. We've already seen how that's turned out. The experiment has been done and the results are in. Also, foras much shit as Ye deserves to have thrown at him, nobody wanted his music and, if he had played it safe, he would have never moved beyond simply making beats for other artists.

The reality is that, if a label is coming to you in 2020, there's a good chance that you already have a buzz around you. They always want the less risky move and are happy to build off whatever they've already created for them with a promise to take them "to the next level." That's not necessarily a bad move to work WITH them, but question why they want you and make sure that the contract reflects that and doesn't hand everything over.

Back in the day, you'd need a label to put you on the radio, or nobody would even hear you. You'd need the label to get you on MTV. And that shit works still, to a degree, but what percentage of people listen to the radio and watch MTV? 100% of a smaller market can, financially, equate to a tiny percentage of a much larger market. So, the individual really has to determine which market they want to be in and which direction they really want to take with their work. If you are less of an "artist" and want to be more of a celebrity, that changes things, too. Macklemore was championed as an "independent" artist, but he already had money and actually hired the machine of a major (Warner? I think), so they did all that heavy lifting. So, if you want to be Macklemore or HUGE, then of course you go that route, but even he leveraged whatever he had to utilize them, while remaining in control of his finances and ownership. If you take your independent film to a major studio, they're going to cut it up, turn it into their own bullshit, and either push a blockbuster that succeeds, or one that never sees the light of day. This is also about creative control. So... yeah, it's a choice, but ti's not one that's so cut an dry as it once was. It's a LOT easier to have a platform in 2020.

Majors don't really develop artists like they used to back in the day. So, while you're talking about the small group that can afford to operate independently, I believe that the group they are willing to invest in at that level is much smaller. You don't need money for studio time anymore. You don't need to take an advance and then owe a label for the rest of your life, after they've paid for your travel and studio time, etc. It's still a predatory move and labels are still moving up on kids like that fox in Pinocchio. If you don't own your masters or some sort of rights to your work, then you don't really own shit. They need to know how it turns out and negotiate better contracts from the beginning. They need to weigh the pros and cons and, these days, signing to a label when it's been proven that you can get your own access to production tools and exposure without them, makes a lot less sense.

Joey Bada$$ didn't sign with Jay Z. He built his own shit. Griselda had Jay and Eminem come to them and only signed very specific management deals and limited contracts with them, without ever agreeing to hand over creative control. If Those dudes signed a full on standard contract with Shady, think about how long they would be waiting in the background to drop anything. It's Gunn who folks like Al.Divino credit with changing the game and providing them with a template to follow. Those are the guys they are studying now.

I think Kanye is a wingnut and have always believed that he's overrated. That's my personal opinion. He says a lot of reckless shit and I don't doubt that he's doing some of that here, but labels do very little of what they used to and bring much less value. Do they have the power to put someone on quick? Sure. But they don't have the power to shut folks out like they once did and they are far from the only game in town, anymore. They didn't listen to the warnings of digital music infiltrating and fucked themselves believing in the fallacy of their own invincibility and eternal relevancy. Encouraging artist to place more value onto themselves, be more cautious with signing away their rights, and refuse predatory contracts is a positive no matter how I look at it.
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I think we're mostly on the same page. I think it's hard to talk about it in a simple or broad manner, because the difference between a major label contract and a small label is enormous and plenty of complicated stuff in between. I don't really even have an interest in most major label artists either, so I wasn't focusing on that and in trying to speak generally was more focused on small labels, like Mello Music Group, Backwoodz, Stones Throw where people who are probably big enough to do it on their own on a small scale keep going, so there must be a benefit there. That's all I was trying to speak to.

I do think there is something to be said about trying to educate young artists about bad vs good deals and the importance of their masters, even the ones that might get big enough to get major label attention that I may not care about. But, I'm not sure Kanye having a tantrum is the best way for them to learn. In a few months everyone will forget and the labels will still be doing the same thing since their inception, unfortunately. I don't think him doing that is a negative necessarily, but I don't think him acting like he is the savior without any tangible accomplishments on the matter is a positive either.

Who knows what artists would have fallen by the wayside because they didn't sign a terrible deal. If they tried to get a good deal? The majors may have laughed in their faces and passed on to the next person. Maybe not though, hard to be sure how it would play out for everyone.

In a perfect world, maybe billionaires like Jay Z and Kanye would fix the system by creating a transparently fair replacement for the major labels, but I don't think either of them made the kind of money they did by being fair and looking out for others business wise either.
 
dhodo said:
I think we're mostly on the same page. I think it's hard to talk about it in a simple or broad manner, because the difference between a major label contract and a small label is enormous and plenty of complicated stuff in between. I don't really even have an interest in most major label artists either, so I wasn't focusing on that and in trying to speak generally was more focused on small labels, like Mello Music Group, Backwoodz, Stones Throw where people who are probably big enough to do it on their own on a small scale keep going, so there must be a benefit there. That's all I was trying to speak to.

I do think there is something to be said about trying to educate young artists about bad vs good deals and the importance of their masters, even the ones that might get big enough to get major label attention that I may not care about. But, I'm not sure Kanye having a tantrum is the best way for them to learn. In a few months everyone will forget and the labels will still be doing the same thing since their inception, unfortunately. I don't think him doing that is a negative necessarily, but I don't think him acting like he is the savior without any tangible accomplishments on the matter is a positive either.

Who knows what artists would have fallen by the wayside because they didn't sign a terrible deal. If they tried to get a good deal? The majors may have laughed in their faces and passed on to the next person. Maybe not though, hard to be sure how it would play out for everyone.

In a perfect world, maybe billionaires like Jay Z and Kanye would fix the system by creating a transparently fair replacement for the major labels, but I don't think either of them made the kind of money they did by being fair and looking out for others business wise either.
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Yeah. That all makes a lot of sense and those are some fair points.

At the risk of bringing up Taylor Swift in a Kanye conversation, it reminds me of when everyone was trying to frame her complaining about not getting a check during free trial periods for Apple music as if it was her attempt to look out for the younger artists. A real Shero. Meanwhile, someone posts her rights grab for concert photographers, of which I am one, and a flood of her fans pour into photography site comment sections to explain to us that it's a privilege to photograph Taylor Swift, that we'd have nothing to photograph if it wasn't for her, and that she should have rights to all of our "work" -- we're just pushing buttons, after all -- so that she can use them in any commercial endeavor that she wants, while we should be stripped of them and shouldn't be able to use our own photographs without risk of being sued.

I don't really trust the intention or dedication of Ye or Jay Z to anyone else, either, as you've already addressed. And, I guess that's the real issue here. Do we trust what this guy is doing? There's definitely more nuance to it and he's no stranger to acting a damn fool. I thought Yeezus was straight trash though, but I seem to be alone in being turned off by him taking songs like Strange Fruit to rap about Molly and fucking party hoes over a chorus about the horrors of lynching, or equating himself not getting a fashion show strictly off celebrity status to slavery, which he later claimed was a choice. Yeah... so... what is the end game here? It's definitely hard to generalize and, in being completely honest, I'm not sure of what his approach has been in this whole thing up to this point and am easily won over by somebody pissing on a Grammy. But, I do think that awareness is important and that it's still an enticing prospect to be offered a fat check from a label without thinking of the long term. Is he going to stay firm and actually deliver that message and lay out that nuance, though? Unfortunately, you may be right and he probably won't.
 
Melt Face Molly Drop said:
Industry politics aside, this is good content
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you can't put regular politics aside because he is baby Putin. Kanye's got a point this time (and museum couches), but god do I still hate his delivery.

anyway- interesting part to me is the Y combinator aspect that would act Silicon Valley-style and force transparency on the label setup. this would require labels to play ball first, so I'm skeptical BUT his recent rant has attracted some attention, including board members of Vivendi.

now he definitely has the powers attention, but TBD on if he truly harnesses his ego for a greater good.
 
You know what’s sad, if this gets forgotten by next week once he rants about a completely different subject
 
bfly said:
you can't put regular politics aside because he is baby Putin. Kanye's got a point this time (and museum couches), but god do I still hate his delivery.

anyway- interesting part to me is the Y combinator aspect that would act Silicon Valley-style and force transparency on the label setup. this would require labels to play ball first, so I'm skeptical BUT his recent rant has attracted some attention, including board members of Vivendi.

now he definitely has the powers attention, but TBD on if he truly harnesses his ego for a greater good.
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I guess we'll see how quickly he gets distracted
 
dhodo said:
If only I had a good reason to hope I won't have to import it from Europe.
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Lex Records has been putting out the singles and doing the press on this so I’d guess it’s coming through them. So yeah, it’s coming from Europe, but their shipping rates seem to be much better than some of the other labels. Plus, I think Lex distributes everywhere, so this should be fairly easy to get. I’m hopeful, anyway. This look dope!
 
Baby Keem has 2 new singles coming tomorrow!! We may not be getting new Kendrick but we are getting his lil cousin to drop new heat!!!
 
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