Jazz

[Russ I]

Typically I would have the same view as @Russ I, but with it being such an expensive record to have it in anything less than the condition advertised is unacceptable as far as I'm concerned.

Their response you shared actually annoys me, this is such an expensive purchase and to downright refuse a refund is basically them saying they are not accepting responsibility. If I was in your position (my copy is actually on the way so I may we be although hopefully not) then I would push for a replacement or refund and use the threat of a chargeback. If they only offer a refund, great as it's still in stock so you can just repurchase.

Yeah, I completely understand this and might have felt the same way if I’d purchased this and received it in the condition @mingerton described. I guess that’s why I think it’s a charged issue, because there are multiple ways to look at it and at some level, there’s a good deal of emotion involved.

 

[Portland Sheriff]

At minimum, they should accept 100% responsibility for the problematic shipping. I know they aren’t actually responsible for what happened, but they’re charging a premium for a good shipping service and, as between the customer and seller, the seller should bear that risk/burden and go to its shipper for a refund from the shipper.

That leaves the damage to the record, and, if you want to keep it, I think 20% is fair but you could certainly threaten a cc chargeback to get more. If you don’t want the record, you could try the chargeback to get a full refund and send it back to them.

 

[Andy]

This is what they did with the Coltrane, I think the damage was to a bunch on a pallet though and they said they didn’t have an replacement sleeves. For me it came down to if I wanted the record or not, but still annoying.

 

[mingerton]

Thanks to all for your helpful replies. I'm going to wait until tomorrow to decide -- don't want to let my disappointed emotional state get the better of me. Honestly, what bothers me is that they did not offer a replacement copy. It's still in stock so they can send one to me and then I would return the other copy. And it's not just the album cover but the fancy slipcase that does seem more than just minor cosmetic damage.

 

[Russ I]

Thanks to all for your helpful replies. I'm going to wait until tomorrow to decide -- don't want to let my disappointed emotional state get the better of me. Honestly, what bothers me is that they did not offer a replacement copy. It's still in stock so they can send one to me and then I would return the other copy. And it's not just the album cover but the fancy slipcase that does seem more than just minor cosmetic damage.

Definitely disappointing. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

[RHANDMJ]

Typically I would have the same view as @Russ I, but with it being such an expensive record to have it in anything less than the condition advertised is unacceptable as far as I'm concerned.

Their response you shared actually annoys me, this is such an expensive purchase and to downright refuse a refund is basically them saying they are not accepting responsibility. If I was in your position (my copy is actually on the way so I may we be although hopefully not) then I would push for a replacement or refund and use the threat of a chargeback. If they only offer a refund, great as it's still in stock so you can just repurchase.

Although I don't purchase them, I appreciate that these are premium products aimed at collectors. However, the downside of being produced in small numbers is that the label has to consider the utility of sending a replacement copy, which means that given small numbers someone else won't be able to buy one, against offering a fair discount. 20% IMO is very fair.

If I were the label, I would also offer a 20% discount. If the customer is dissatisfied with that, I would offer a full refund upon return of the product. I would not offer a replcement for cosmetic damage. If still in stock, the customer can use that refund to buy another copy.

Chargebacks are not as easy s they are made out to be, BTW.

 

[Selaws]

Although I don't purchase them, I appreciate that these are premium products aimed at collectors. However, the downside of being produced in small numbers is that the label has to consider the utility of sending a replacement copy, which means that given small numbers someone else won't be able to buy one, against offering a fair discount. 20% IMO is very fair.

If I were the label, I would also offer a 20% discount. If the customer is dissatisfied with that, I would offer a full refund upon return of the product. I would not offer a replcement for cosmetic damage. If still in stock, the customer can use that refund to buy another copy.

Chargebacks are not as easy s they are made out to be, BTW.

I would understand more if they had sold out but they haven't, it's still available despite the crazy resale prices. Every label produces extra records in addition to the numbered run for this very reason, from small 500 print runs all the way up to this 5000 print run. If they don't then I would argue it's their fault, especially for an established larger label like Craft.

I've seen companies use the "If we send you a replacement that means another customer will miss out" argument before and it really doesn't sit right with me. It's like they are gaslighting the buyer into feeling as if their actions are causing the issue when in reality it's either the labels (poor packaging or QC if it's a pressing issue) or the shipping company.

I don't have an issue with Craft offering the 15% refund, but to do so whilst also saying they won't accept a return is putting people (@mingerton in this case) in an uncomfortable situation - take what we give you or tough luck.

 

[RHANDMJ]

I would understand more if they had sold out but they haven't, it's still available despite the crazy resale prices. Every label produces extra records in addition to the numbered run for this very reason, from small 500 print runs all the way up to this 5000 print run. If they don't then I would argue it's their fault, especially for an established larger label like Craft.

I've seen companies use the "If we send you a replacement that means another customer will miss out" argument before and it really doesn't sit right with me. It's like they are gaslighting the buyer into feeling as if their actions are causing the issue when in reality it's either the labels (poor packaging or QC if it's a pressing issue) or the shipping company.

I don't have an issue with Craft offering the 15% refund, but to do so whilst also saying they won't accept a return is putting people (@mingerton in this case) in an uncomfortable situation - take what we give you or tough luck.

His problem is the cover, not the record. While most usually keep some records on hand for issues, packaging is not always the same.

Like I said, giving a full refund upon return of the package, particularly given that these are limited quantities, would be entirely fair and reasonable.

The idea of initiating a 'chargeback' does not sit well with me. That's trying to get the money back and keep the record at the same time. Funny, the chargeback idea seems to make the dings in the box more liveable.

 

[Selaws]

His problem is the cover, not the record. While most usually keep some records on hand for issues, packaging is not always the same.

Like I said, giving a full refund upon return of the package, particularly given that these are limited quantities, would be entirely fair and reasonable.

The idea of initiating a 'chargeback' does not sit well with me. That's trying to get the money back and keep the record at the same time. Funny, the chargeback idea seems to make the dings in the box more liveable.

It might not be the same for every label but again, that should be their issue and not the person that received a damaged product.

I completely agree with you that a full refund upon return is fair but in this case, I don't think they are offering that.

A chargeback without contacting the label first is definitely uncalled for/shady, but when the label is downright refusing to accept the product back then I cant really see what the buyer can do other than to accept they were sent something in a different condition to what the label advertised. I have never made a chargeback and it would be a last resort, but I would personally send a message to the label asking for a return address if I was to get the money back that way regardless.

 

[MikeH]

Dear Jazz N&Gers: I write to ask for your advice. I somewhat foolishly bought the latest Craft Small Batch:

The Miles Davis Quintet - Relaxin’ with the Miles Davis Quintet (Small Batch, One-Step Pressing)

It arrived last week and had damage to the shipping box (sent via DHL; no media mail option after the shipping debacle on the Lateef). As a result, it has a medium size ding to the corner of the fancy black outer slipcover box and a small corner ding on the same corner of the record jacket.

I wrote a polite message to Craft; they said they needed to reach out to their "team" since it was a Small Batch; and then got back to me today saying they will not offer a refund or replacement but just 15% off the original price (so about $20).

If this was a $20 album, I wouldn't care about the damage. But this was $110 + shipping, so I'm not feeling great about a $20 refund.

So, I ask all of you: would this satisfy you or should I appeal to Craft and/or initiate a CC chargeback?

Thanks in advance.

They gave me a replacement box for the Lush Life one step when mine arrived without a number on it. That was awhile ago, but I was pretty cordial with them about it and they relented and sent a new box and liner notes. My guess is someone had a damaged record so they split up a replacement copy. They had to do the same thing for me and reach out to their team, since Second City Prints does the fulfilment and CS I think. I spoke with someone named Misty who was helpful, but I saw people on Hoffman seem to really dislike her and say she's unhelpful. Not sure what has happened there, although I don't doubt that a lot of people on Hoffman probably start off on the wrong foot with CS folks...

Chargeback is always the last course of action for me. Personally, I'd take the discount if the record itself is fine. I don't blame them for not sending a free full replacement on a $110 record. Not sure if the option exists for you to send the whole thing back and have them send you a full new copy but might not be worth the hassle. Mine was shipped via DHL as well but was handed off to USPS at the last leg of the journey. Pretty sure that happened with a bunch of people, so not sure if USPS or DHL was the culprit on this one.

I think the record itself sounds great, so hopefully your copy at least sounds good!

 

[MikeH]

My wife and I babysat last night for our friends in NYC. So it was a good excuse to hit up Jazz Record Center on my way to Grand Central this morning. Haven’t been there in years but wanted to do some digging today. Ended up with a fat stack of albums. Only the Ellington was more than $20. Was really surprised at the selection they had of used albums.

 

[mingerton]

A quick update on my copy of Miles, Relaxin' from Craft: this morning I wrote back, thanked Misty for the 15% refund, but agreed with her that it was not "ideal" and asked if there were any other options.

She wrote back about an hour ago with exactly what @MikeH just mentioned with his copy of Lush Life. She would send me a return label, I return the box, and then as soon as the tracking # shows movement, Craft will send me a replacement box.

I readily agreed and I'm satisfied with this solution. My only question at this point is why didn't they offer this solution in the first place? Perhaps they only have a few copies to exchange like this (i.e. someone else had a mint condition box but returned the record because it was damaged).

Thanks again to all for your advice. And I did get a chance to spin the record and it sounds amazing!

 

[stpaulbrowns]

My wife and I babysat last night for our friends in NYC. So it was a good excuse to hit up Jazz Record Center on my way to Grand Central this morning. Haven’t been there in years but wanted to do some digging today. Ended up with a fat stack of albums. Only the Ellington was more than $20. Was really surprised at the selection they had of used albums.

View attachment 138843

Love that place.

 

[mingerton]

Love that place.

Is that the place that has a complete run of Downbeat magazine above the record racks?

 

[Selaws]

My wife and I babysat last night for our friends in NYC. So it was a good excuse to hit up Jazz Record Center on my way to Grand Central this morning. Haven’t been there in years but wanted to do some digging today. Ended up with a fat stack of albums. Only the Ellington was more than $20. Was really surprised at the selection they had of used albums.

View attachment 138843

Fantastic score, I wouldn't know which one to listen to first!!

 

[The Denmarkian Wonder]

My wife and I babysat last night for our friends in NYC. So it was a good excuse to hit up Jazz Record Center on my way to Grand Central this morning. Haven’t been there in years but wanted to do some digging today. Ended up with a fat stack of albums. Only the Ellington was more than $20. Was really surprised at the selection they had of used albums.

View attachment 138843

Babysitting must be a lucrative business.

 

[MikeH]

Is that the place that has a complete run of Downbeat magazine above the record racks?

It is! They have an insane collection of them. And also have a nice jazz book selection.

@stpaulbrowns i never used to go there because it was a bit overwhelming and when I lived nearby I wasn’t into jazz as much. But the owner and people there are really nice and it’s a fun place to look around. Prices seemed better this time around but part of me thinks that they just haven’t changed the prices in years.

 

[MikeH]

Fantastic score, I wouldn't know which one to listen to first!!

I’ve been cleaning them this afternoon but first one I put on was Out of the Forrest. It appears to be an OG mono and was $15. Has a hole punch through the jacket and record on the label and a tiny edge warp that doesn’t really affect play. Was surprised it was priced so low. That and Chick Corea Bliss! (Which is just an alt title for Pete LaRoca’s Turkish Women at the Bath) were two albums I’ve really been wanting to get lately.

Thought of ya because they had a few Tubby Hayes albums as well but didn’t end up picking up any of those

 

[Selaws]

I’ve been cleaning them this afternoon but first one I put on was Out of the Forrest. It appears to be an OG mono and was $15. Has a hole punch through the jacket and record on the label and a tiny edge warp that doesn’t really affect play. Was surprised it was priced so low. That and Chick Corea Bliss! (Which is just an alt title for Pete LaRoca’s Turkish Women at the Bath) we’re two albums I’ve really been wanting to get lately.

Thought of ya because they had a few Tubby Hayes albums as well but didn’t end up picking up any of those

Ah sweet, that's definitely a great one to start with. The hole punch could be a cut-out. Unsold copies of a record would be shipped back to a distributor and they would punch the hole in the jacket or cut off a corner to highlight that the artist would not receive royalties. They would then bulk sell them back to a record shop at a discount, which would then sell them cheap. A great way to get records for a discount!

Nice! I eyed up that Dusk Fire straight away, a blinder of an album! I have noticed that there's been a surge in popularity in the US for classic UK jazz albums recently. At least, a lot of the bigger US Instagram users have been posting rare British jazz anyway. They were already scarce so its going to become a nightmare getting them

 

[MikeH]

Ah sweet, that's definitely a great one to start with. The hole punch could be a cut-out. Unsold copies of a record would be shipped back to a distributor and they would punch the hole in the jacket or cut off a corner to highlight that the artist would not receive royalties. They would then bulk sell them back to a record shop at a discount, which would then sell them cheap. A great way to get records for a discount!

Nice! I eyed up that Dusk Fire straight away, a blinder of an album! I have noticed that there's been a surge in popularity in the US for classic UK jazz albums recently. At least, a lot of the bigger US Instagram users have been posting rare British jazz anyway. They were already scarce so its going to become a nightmare getting them

A few were cutouts but still sealed, and I had read about the hole punch before which is kinda cool! It also has a rubber stamp on the back saying "Inspected by No. 1 RS" which I hadn't seen before...Just surprised it was still priced so low being an OG mono. The laminate on the sleeve and everything is in great shape.

When I was in London in August I was at SOTU and torn between the reissues of Dusk Fire and Shades of Blue. Ended up getting Shades of Blue but wished I had gotten both. Dusk Fire has been hard to find and they had it for $25 sealed so it was an instant grab for me.

I'm really curious how much used stuff they don't even have out on the floor. The cabinets under the flip bins all say "do not open" but I couldn't help but peak last time. It was full of insane records that weren't even priced yet.

The first time I was at the shop I was really confused because there were lots of empty jackets listed at $30+. Took me a minute to realize that anything opened and over $30 has the vinyl stored separately behind the register while the sleeve is out in the bins. They also write down what you buy on a huge legal pad of paper to keep track of inventory and have an old little calculator with a receipt printer to tally everything up.