Political Discussion

Nee Lewman said:
I’m not sure there is much to be mad at about Trump talking to Netanyahu. He’s an ally. He went to have dinner with Trump when he was here last time. The problem with Putin is he is an enemy of the state.

The real thing here that they should broadcast is exactly what I have been saying, if the Israeli war is your single issue vote… IT WILL ABSOLUTELY BE WORSE UNDER TRUMP because he has been telling the fucker to do whatever, just like he will tell/probably already has told Putin with Ukraine.
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How? How does it get worse than genocide? On so many other issues you’re right but on this one unless Harris is lying to get certain support and then does a complete volte face, which I don’t believe she is, I don’t believe it can.
 
Joe Mac said:
How? How does it get worse than genocide? On so many other issues you’re right but on this one unless Harris is lying to get certain support and then does a complete volte face, which I don’t believe she is, I don’t believe it can.
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I don’t think it is properly discussed here exactly how politically muddled this whole thing is here. While American support/sympathy for Palestine is growing, more Americans support Israel and the war than not. Biden’s approval rating in relation to the war pretty much mirrors his approval rating overall. When he slowed aid and denied some aid (some 2,000 lb bombs are still currently being withheld) he got raked over the coals for it here. So he has been in the shitty position of wanting to end the war but not having the support to do it. Netanyahu has continued to do what he wants to do and Biden has been scared to be harder on what is unfortunately a very important strategic ally.

I hate this (all) war and I want more done. However, Trump isn’t even going to try and may have been working against the current administration the whole time.

I said a while back - American exceptionalism is talked about as a bad thing but is still desired in situations like this.

Being against what is happening and ineffective in ending it is very different from supporting it fully. It would not surprise me in the least for Trump to send US Soldiers to help finish the job should he be elected. It will absolutely be worse if he wins and certainly escalate before he takes office.
 
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Nee Lewman said:
I don’t think it is properly discussed here exactly how politically muddled this whole things is here. While American support/sympathy for Palestine is growing, more Americans support Israel and the war than not. Baden’s approval rating in relation to the war pretty much mirrors his approval rating overall. When he slowed aided and denied some aid (some 2,000 lb bombs are still currently being withheld) he got raked over the coals for it here. So he has been in the shitty position of wanting to end the war but not having the support to do it. Netanyahu has continued to do what he wants to do and Biden has been scared to be harder on what is unfortunately a very important strategic ally.

I hate this (all) war and I want more done. However, Trump isn’t even going to try and may have been working against the current administration the whole time.

I said a while back - American exceptionalism is talked about as a bad thing but is still desired in situations like this.

Being against what is happening and ineffective in ending it is very different from supporting it fully. It would not surprise me in the least for Trump to send US Soldiers to help finish the job should he be elected. It will absolutely be worse if he wins and certainly escalate before he takes office.
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I don’t think the democrats are either against or actively attempting to stop it. Maybe slow it at the very most and I’m being incredibly generous saying that. Biden’s history with Israel is too strong and Harris is following his lead.
 
Joe Mac said:
I don’t think the democrats are either against or actively attempting to stop it. Maybe slow it at the very most and I’m being incredibly generous saying that. Biden’s history with Israel is too strong and Harris is following his lead.
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I can’t convince you of what you are unwilling to be convinced about. We know that Biden curses about Netanyahu’s behavior behind closed doors. We know that Netanyahu respects stuff enough to at least wait until Blinken leaves to escalate further. The majority of American people are on the wrong side of this issue and all answers are shit regardless of what side you are on. It’s a shitty situation that isn’t going to end well much less the way any of us here would like it.
 
Nee Lewman said:
I can’t convince you of what you are unwilling to be convinced about. We know that Biden curses about Netanyahu’s behavior behind closed doors. We know that Netanyahu respects stuff enough to at least wait until Blinken leaves to escalate further. The majority of American people are on the wrong side of this issue and all answers are shit regardless of what side you are on. It’s a shitty situation that isn’t going to end well much less the way any of us here would like it.
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In the 80s, Biden privately supported Israel's invasion of Lebanon. He was later quoted that if there were not an Israel the US were have to "invent one" and encouraged his colleagues to support the state unwaveringly. He was one of two heads of state to attend notes war criminal and psychopath Ariel Sharon's funeral in 2014.

If you still genuinely believe, with 50 years of unmatched glazing under his belt, the last year of multiple blocked UN ceasefire resolutions, a nonstop flow of arms and money, and likely 200k plus dead that Biden and Blinken have actually attempted or said anything critical of Netanyahu I have a bridge to sell you.

We can say oh they called him a butthead in private or whatever, but it means less than nothing if it's even true.

It would be a winning strategy to even remotely attempt pushback against Israel.

 
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ayayrawn said:
In the 80s, Biden privately supported Israel's invasion of Lebanon. He was later quoted that if there were not an Israel the US were have to "invent one" and encouraged his colleagues to support the state unwaveringly. He was one of two heads of state to attend notes war criminal and psychopath Ariel Sharon's funeral in 2014.

If you still genuinely believe, after the last year of multiple blocked UN ceasefire resolutions, a nonstop flow of arms and money, and likely 200k plus dead that Biden and Blinken have actually attempted or said anything critical of Netanyahu I have a bridge to sell you. We can say oh they called him a butthead in private or whatever, but it means less than nothing if it's even true.

It would be a winning strategy to even remotely attempt pushback against Israel.

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As a 51 yo, I can tell you that I have very different opinions on lots of things from before you were born and lots of different opinions on things from five to ten years ago. I wish we would stop assuming people are static. I really don’t think most people are.
 
Nee Lewman said:
As a 51 yo, I can tell you that I have very different opinions on lots of things from before you were born and lots of different opinions on things from five to ten years ago. I wish we would stop assuming people are static. I really don’t think most people are.
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I'm not saying YOU are static, I'm saying BIDEN is static on this issue, and there are mountains and mountains of evidence across decades, and a lot of it happening right now, that suggest this is the case. "People change" doesn't work when everything Biden has said and done for Israel the last year is completely in step with the last 50 years of his career.
 
ayayrawn said:
In the 80s, Biden privately supported Israel's invasion of Lebanon. He was later quoted that if there were not an Israel the US were have to "invent one" and encouraged his colleagues to support the state unwaveringly. He was one of two heads of state to attend notes war criminal and psychopath Ariel Sharon's funeral in 2014.

If you still genuinely believe, with 50 years of unmatched glazing under his belt, the last year of multiple blocked UN ceasefire resolutions, a nonstop flow of arms and money, and likely 200k plus dead that Biden and Blinken have actually attempted or said anything critical of Netanyahu I have a bridge to sell you.

We can say oh they called him a butthead in private or whatever, but it means less than nothing if it's even true.

It would be a winning strategy to even remotely attempt pushback against Israel.

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My guess is Harris probably has internal polling showing that the issue hurts her more than it helps her. It would be insane if she had data that said it would help her and she chose to ignore it. I seriously doubt her team is like “this issue might cost us the election but we would rather support genocide than win the presidency”.

I think it’s more likely that she is being calculated to the detriment of Palestine. That criticism makes more sense logically. Avoiding the issue, remaining opaque on her support might alienate the fringe (Trump has an Ad up that I’ve seen a few times of a bunch of older Jewish women sitting around a deli talking about how they are gonna vote for the GOP for the first time because Trump will keep them safe from anti-semitism) but my assumption is it allows a lot of voters to focus more on other less divisive policies amongst the democratic base.
 
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TenderLovingKiller® said:
My guess is Harris probably has internal polling showing that the issue hurts her more than it helps her. It would be insane if she had data that said it would help her and she chose to ignore it. I seriously doubt her team is like “this issue might cost us the election but we would rather support genocide than win the presidency”.

I think it’s more likely that she is being calculated to the detriment of Palestine. That criticism makes more sense logically. Avoiding the issue, remaining opaque on her support might alienate the fringe (Trump has an Ad up that I’ve seen a few times of a bunch of older Jewish women sitting around a deli talking about how they are gonna vote for the GOP for the first time because Trump will keep them safe from anti-semitism) but might assumption is it allows a lot of voters to focus more on other less divisive policies amongst the democratic base.
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I agree with this and yes it sucks but there's a lot more to lose for everyone if Trump gets back in office, especially Palestinians and people who support them. I think Blinken told Bibi that we're not supporting any further, wider range of actions with Iran which is why we saw the limited strikes last night and Israel saying they consider the matter closed. Now it's on Iran to not retaliate. But Bibi isn't lifting a finger to go with a ceasefire if it hurts Trump. Maybe I'm naive but I feel once Kamala wins, Israel will realize their options are going to start running out. I truly do not feel she is going to be Biden 2.0 on this but she's stuck in an unwinnable situation given how coming out against Israel would be played by both corporate media and Trump who would carry his message without any rebuke or context.
 
TenderLovingKiller® said:
My guess is Harris probably has internal polling showing that the issue hurts her more than it helps her. It would be insane if she had data that said it would help her and she chose to ignore it. I seriously doubt her team is like “this issue might cost us the election but we would rather support genocide than win the presidency”.

I think it’s more likely that she is being calculated to the detriment of Palestine. That criticism makes more sense logically. Avoiding the issue, remaining opaque on her support might alienate the fringe (Trump has an Ad up that I’ve seen a few times of a bunch of older Jewish women sitting around a deli talking about how they are gonna vote for the GOP for the first time because Trump will keep them safe from anti-semitism) but might assumption is it allows a lot of voters to focus more on other less divisive policies amongst the democratic base.
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That's an immense amount of trust to have in a politician to just give them the benefit of the doubt imo. This isn't meant to be a rhetorical question because I want to know, what has she ever done to make you think she deserves the benefit of the doubt on this? Besides not being Trump or Biden can you name a single beneficial thing that she has personally done as a politician to make us think she's trustworthy and stands by any convictions other than whatever the Democratic party wants?

More than likely it's far more about "American" interests, not Americans' interests and has nothing to do with internal or external polling. Think about how quickly Obama changed his tune once he got elected. It was a complete 180. He got told and he fell right in line. She knows she only got this nomination because of the backroom Dem leaders. She's more beholden to them than any voter.
 
TenderLovingKiller® said:
My guess is Harris probably has internal polling showing that the issue hurts her more than it helps her. It would be insane if she had data that said it would help her and she chose to ignore it. I seriously doubt her team is like “this issue might cost us the election but we would rather support genocide than win the presidency”.

I think it’s more likely that she is being calculated to the detriment of Palestine. That criticism makes more sense logically. Avoiding the issue, remaining opaque on her support might alienate the fringe (Trump has an Ad up that I’ve seen a few times of a bunch of older Jewish women sitting around a deli talking about how they are gonna vote for the GOP for the first time because Trump will keep them safe from anti-semitism) but my assumption is it allows a lot of voters to focus more on other less divisive policies amongst the democratic base.
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The reality is probably moreso that Israel is invaluable to US empire's exploitation and subjugation of the middle east, and they haven't yet learned how to counter the fact that in the year 2024 anyone can see the atrocities happening, call out manufactured consent in the media, and politcal lip service as it happens in real time. Huge tentpoles like The Times and The Post are obviously trying their best to clean it up and make it palatable, but it's probably the most brazen manufactured consent has ever been, and anyone with half a brain should notice it.

mdmost said:
I agree with this and yes it sucks but there's a lot more to lose for everyone if Trump gets back in office, especially Palestinians and people who support them.
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Yes, the unfettered genocide and systematic extermination sucks, but they could be genocided and systematically exterminated more.

mdmost said:
Maybe I'm naive but I feel once Kamala wins, Israel will realize their options are going to start running out.
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I have 0 faith that this is the case. Especially if she installs republicans to her cabinet like she's suggested.
 
ayayrawn said:
Yes, the unfettered genocide and systematic extermination sucks, but they could be genocided and systematically exterminated more.
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Actually it can. There's already talk that Israel will reclaim settlements in the West Bank so even if people returned, their land would be stolen away. I doubt a Kamala administration would support that. Trump won't care. Trump won't care for a two state solution. Operations can increase in Lebanon and Iran. Another thing Trump wouldn't care about but Kamala would. But I will never convince you of this and you will never convince me. It's a horrific situation but I don't feel it's better if Trump gets in office. I absolutely feel it will if Kamala does but again, I will never convince you of this.
 
mdmost said:
Actually it can. There's already talk that Israel will reclaim settlements in the West Bank so even if people returned, their land would be stolen away. I doubt a Kamala administration would support that. Trump won't care. Trump won't care for a two state solution. Operations can increase in Lebanon and Iran. Another thing Trump wouldn't care about but Kamala would. But I will never convince you of this and you will never convince me. It's a horrific situation but I don't feel it's better if Trump gets in office. I absolutely feel it will if Kamala does but again, I will never convince you of this.
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They're literally already doing that right now.

Screenshot_20241023_103819_Instagram.jpg
 
ayayrawn said:
The reality is probably moreso that Israel is invaluable to US empire's exploitation and subjugation of the middle east
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This is it. Both parties and all their leaders are completely in support of Israel and its ongoing aggression (and have been for decades) because Israel is its colonial outpost in the region. The value of that for American foreign policy (i.e., imperialism) is way more important than a single presidential election for either party.
 
I'll get behind a Trump sucks argument anytime of the day, but do we really need to delude ourselves into thinking Biden and Blinken are "good" or that Harris will be "good" or that any of them genuinely have our's and the world's interests at heart? What have these ghouls done to earn this apart from just not being Trump? Half of what y'all are scared about or threatening under Trump is either already well underway or already happened under Trump the first time, and hasn't been done away with.
 
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