Political Discussion

jaycee said:
I think this is a misconception. People don't vote here. I don't know what the eligible voter turnout was last presidential election (it's highest for pres elecs) but it is appallingly low. American politics is so far beyond the theoretical middle that switching teams very rarely happens. Each party just tries to get the most people they can registered for their party and voting. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that I don't think getting people to switch from Trump is a winning strategy.

Something like 30% of Americans will vote for whomever is the Republican candidate regardless of any real or perceived crimes
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I haven't been here at all but I'm a political junky... and anyway, this is pretty much right. There's no "taking votes away" from Trump. Just won't happen. Those that supported him in 2016 will probably do it again because "the Dems are worse" or some bullshit. At best, some Repubs with any shred of dignity left will sit 2020 out.

Winning 2020 will be about motivating average Democrats that don't normally vote and are apathetic in general. It's not about flipping people from Trump, it's about running someone that actually inspires a huge turnout.
 
botherly said:
Yep, definitely. Doesn't matter if the next candidate matches Obama's record-setting 2008 numbers if she can't win back WI, MI, and PA.
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and that has as much to do with Republicans being more apathetic as Dems turning out, which is why it's valuable to pursue impeachment whether there's a real chance of it getting through the Senate or not
 
RenegadeMonster said:
Parents are finding it's cheaper for the mother to give up her salary and be a stay at home mother than it is for the mother to continue to work and the family had to pay for childcare. The survey also found that the mothers would rather work than be stay at home mothers, but are forced too because they can't afford childcare.
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I think you'd find that most women are aware of this trend across the country. Because even where childcare doesn't entirely eclipse one salary, is it worth all the effort to take home 10 grand a year? Because it is incredibly difficult to coordinate care and family and home when children are small. Women still do the lion's share of household work and coordinating, regardless of their employment status.

Captainfog said:
The only Dem candidate from the current lineup that can beat Trump is Bernie.
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Captainfog said:
He's always been unapologetic about that, it's already priced in. You challenge him on that and he'll talk about sticking to the billionaires. He's very good.
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Captainfog said:
None of them combine the firebrand arm waving with radical policies like Bernie. IMO you only beat Trump by going toe to toe with him and I just don't see any of the other candidates doing that. Ideally AOC would be running, but she's not. Her time will come, but for now the best shot you've got is Bernie.
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What you and many Bernie supporters seem to ignore is that he has never run a real campaign against the GOP on a national stage. People complain that he's being overlooked right now, but once again it is playing to his advantage. He's enjoyed constant attention and an unspoken (and unfounded) "he would have won" from the media since November 9, 2016, and now the media is focusing on the foibles and infighting of his competition. A Biden or Warren heart attack would likely attract campaign-killing attention if it happened now, but as things stand he's relatively unscathed. But under the spotlight he is rude. He has a bad temper. He has a savior complex that leads him to think that even going into his 80s HE alone can fix inequality (while simultaneously dismissing major facets of inequality in America). His history as a cantankerous quasi-hippie plays fine with some folks on the left, but shine a light on it where the nation can see and you'll realize how many people think dumb shit from the 70s and 80s is still a deal-breaker. His 90s hawkishness can't be brushed under the carpet forever if the evolution of other candidates was considered a liability. "A lot of people aren't racist or sexist, they just aren't comfortable voting for a black person or a woman" gets a lot more attention when he's the only candidate left.

What's more, you underestimate how conservative America is (especially white Americans), and how much the "protestant work ethic" still informs our psyches. A not-insignificant proportion of Americans think free college and single-payer health care are *extreme* leftist positions. They think it's "unfair" for Billionaires to bear the majority of the tax burden. They think anything for "free" is evil and lazy. These are people who will tell you that giving charity is Biblical (as long as it isn't done by the government, of course), but accepting it is weak and ugly. Folks who voted Trump over so-called "economic insecurity" will be horrified by Bernie stealing electricity for whatever reason. These are people who justify routine police shootings because their victims didn't put their hands up fast enough or the cop was "scared"--they worship authority and rule of law, as long as they believe it won't be turned against them.

Anyway, while I like a lot of his ideas and ideals, I don't think he's as strong a candidate as his supporters want to believe. And I don't think he has the skills and temperament to achieve his lofty goals.

Personally, I don't believe you can vote in "revolution." No candidate is left enough for me, and all of them are imperialists willing to sacrifice children on the altar of power, but I will vote for whoever gets the nomination against the GOP, because as bad as the Dems are, the GOP is worse. But I'm not a member of either party, and Oregon is pretty reliably blue, so I'm currently more focused on my city politics (and calling in with support of my Senators periodically), where my opinion and money can make the strongest impact.

(ETA: I had waaaay more trouble with those quote tags than I should!)
 
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Dtknuckles said:
Yea I believe he had a lot of criticism for Trump. He did claim to be critical of Reps, but never really voiced any of that here.
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I think part of it is as much as he or any of us want to consider ourselves outside of the mainstream, we're pretty deeply indoctrinated with siding with whichever party is closest to our ideals. Justifiably, given our 2-party, winner-take-all system.
 
GritNGlitter said:
I think you'd find that most women are aware of this trend across the country. Because even where childcare doesn't entirely eclipse one salary, is it worth all the effort to take home 10 grand a year? Because it is incredibly difficult to coordinate care and family and home when children are small. Women still do the lion's share of household work and coordinating, regardless of their employment status.




What you and many Bernie supporters seem to ignore is that he has never run a real campaign against the GOP on a national stage. People complain that he's being overlooked right now, but once again it is playing to his advantage. He's enjoyed constant attention and an unspoken (and unfounded) "he would have won" from the media since November 9, 2016, and now the media is focusing on the foibles and infighting of his competition. A Biden or Warren heart attack would likely attract campaign-killing attention if it happened now, but as things stand he's relatively unscathed. But under the spotlight he is rude. He has a bad temper. He has a savior complex that leads him to think that even going into his 80s HE alone can fix inequality (while simultaneously dismissing major facets of inequality in America). His history as a cantankerous quasi-hippie plays fine with some folks on the left, but shine a light on it where the nation can see and you'll realize how many people think dumb shit from the 70s and 80s is still a deal-breaker. His 90s hawkishness can't be brushed under the carpet forever if the evolution of other candidates was considered a liability. "A lot of people aren't racist or sexist, they just aren't comfortable voting for a black person or a woman" gets a lot more attention when he's the only candidate left.

What's more, you underestimate how conservative America is (especially white Americans), and how much the "protestant work ethic" still informs our psyches. A not-insignificant proportion of Americans think free college and single-payer health care are *extreme* leftist positions. They think it's "unfair" for Billionaires to bear the majority of the tax burden. They think anything for "free" is evil and lazy. These are people who will tell you that giving charity is Biblical (as long as it isn't done by the government, of course), but accepting it is weak and ugly. Folks who voted Trump over so-called "economic insecurity" will be horrified by Bernie stealing electricity for whatever reason. These are people who justify routine police shootings because their victims didn't put their hands up fast enough or the cop was "scared"--they worship authority and rule of law, as long as they believe it won't be turned against them.

Anyway, while I like a lot of his ideas and ideals, I don't think he's as strong a candidate as his supporters want to believe. And I don't think he has the skills and temperament to achieve his lofty goals.

Personally, I don't believe you can vote in "revolution." No candidate is left enough for me, and all of them are imperialists willing to sacrifice children on the altar of power, but I will vote for whoever gets the nomination against the GOP, because as bad as the Dems are, the GOP is worse. But I'm not a member of either party, and Oregon is pretty reliably blue, so I'm currently more focused on my city politics (and calling in with support of my Senators periodically), where my opinion and money can make the strongest impact.
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[/QUOTE]


Well said!
 
Pretty accurate representation of the South and Middle America. Lots of liberal democrats inside the cities, get outside of them and you find a whole lot of crazy. This may or not be satire, but this was done in Arizona.

 
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GritNGlitter said:
I think part of it is as much as he or any of us want to consider ourselves outside of the mainstream, we're pretty deeply indoctrinated with siding with whichever party is closest to our ideals. Justifiably, given our 2-party, winner-take-all system.
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to be fair I live in a land of multiple parties and proportional representation and I still roll my eyes at the lot of them. It’s empty rhetoric and tubthumping all the same. Sensible policies are either crazy, leftist and will bankrupt the exchequer from one side or are capitalist sell outs from the other side. And let’s not mention our European high income taxes with the top rate of over 50% kicking in at just over €40,000 but a corporation tax of 12.5% (with incredibly generous offsets that make the actual rate much lower) designed to attract the worst american companies to set up shop here. We probably have Europe’s worst and most expensive public services too.

Politics is broken and it won’t be over the hill condescending anachronisms like Sanders or Corbyn that fix it.

Ok that came across as a bit of a rant, sorry, it’s just all so frustrating....
 
Twentytwo said:
Oh I know that, I'm just saying that the people in audience may or may not be in on the joke. They probably are that xenophobic.
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I would be wary of making conclusions based on stuff like this. A former friend who was very conservative posted a gotcha video of a person using Obama's words while attributing them to Trump. In both of these videos they choose the people they include either for entertainment or to push a viewpoint.
 
Teeeee said:
Speaking of AOC, my sister got me a "squad" t shirt for my birthday. Last weekend, I was driving through VA and NC to get to the beach. My mom asked me to, "Please do not wear your new squad t-shirt that deep into those parts of VA and NC." Lol
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Tell your mom I’m offended.
 
GritNGlitter said:
I think you'd find that most women are aware of this trend across the country. Because even where childcare doesn't entirely eclipse one salary, is it worth all the effort to take home 10 grand a year? Because it is incredibly difficult to coordinate care and family and home when children are small. Women still do the lion's share of household work and coordinating, regardless of their employment status.




What you and many Bernie supporters seem to ignore is that he has never run a real campaign against the GOP on a national stage. People complain that he's being overlooked right now, but once again it is playing to his advantage. He's enjoyed constant attention and an unspoken (and unfounded) "he would have won" from the media since November 9, 2016, and now the media is focusing on the foibles and infighting of his competition. A Biden or Warren heart attack would likely attract campaign-killing attention if it happened now, but as things stand he's relatively unscathed. But under the spotlight he is rude. He has a bad temper. He has a savior complex that leads him to think that even going into his 80s HE alone can fix inequality (while simultaneously dismissing major facets of inequality in America). His history as a cantankerous quasi-hippie plays fine with some folks on the left, but shine a light on it where the nation can see and you'll realize how many people think dumb shit from the 70s and 80s is still a deal-breaker. His 90s hawkishness can't be brushed under the carpet forever if the evolution of other candidates was considered a liability. "A lot of people aren't racist or sexist, they just aren't comfortable voting for a black person or a woman" gets a lot more attention when he's the only candidate left.

What's more, you underestimate how conservative America is (especially white Americans), and how much the "protestant work ethic" still informs our psyches. A not-insignificant proportion of Americans think free college and single-payer health care are *extreme* leftist positions. They think it's "unfair" for Billionaires to bear the majority of the tax burden. They think anything for "free" is evil and lazy. These are people who will tell you that giving charity is Biblical (as long as it isn't done by the government, of course), but accepting it is weak and ugly. Folks who voted Trump over so-called "economic insecurity" will be horrified by Bernie stealing electricity for whatever reason. These are people who justify routine police shootings because their victims didn't put their hands up fast enough or the cop was "scared"--they worship authority and rule of law, as long as they believe it won't be turned against them.

Anyway, while I like a lot of his ideas and ideals, I don't think he's as strong a candidate as his supporters want to believe. And I don't think he has the skills and temperament to achieve his lofty goals.

Personally, I don't believe you can vote in "revolution." No candidate is left enough for me, and all of them are imperialists willing to sacrifice children on the altar of power, but I will vote for whoever gets the nomination against the GOP, because as bad as the Dems are, the GOP is worse. But I'm not a member of either party, and Oregon is pretty reliably blue, so I'm currently more focused on my city politics (and calling in with support of my Senators periodically), where my opinion and money can make the strongest impact.

(ETA: I had waaaay more trouble with those quote tags than I should!)
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While a lot of your critiques of Bernie are fair here... mainly that he's never run a national campaign against the GOP and there is a lot that might come out from his past... the idea that he is some cranky old man behind the scenes is completely detached from reality. And I say this as somebody A) who has close friends who have worked for him closely and B) somebody who has seen him go out of his way to help a local LA organization I work for simply because he heard about a battle we were waging on behalf of a bunch of vets who were being fucked over by their landlords. It's also completely detached from the empathy and sense of humor that his supporters see in the man on a regular basis at rallies, small events, town halls, exc.

Hell, you talk about right wingers who are terrified of socialists and who think free = "evil and lazy". Most of those people are brain dead right wingers who would never vote for a Democrat to begin with! In contrast, I have several family members who have voted Republican my whole life but hate Trump (for who he is as a human being) and have let it be known to my brother and I that they plan on registering as Dems to vote for Bernie. Which is a story I saw over and over and over again in 2016 while knocking on doors... specifically because people see him as someone who actually cares about working people. So even if they don't agree with all of the policy, they just want to vote for somebody who actually has their back. Again- look at the article I posted awhile back from a reporter who was on the front lines of the GM strike, and to his surprise, found a high correlation between people who supported Bernie in 2016 before voting for Trump in the general out of sheer desperation.

Anyways, I've said a lot of this before, and feel like I'm just this boards resident Bernie Bro (even though I will gladly vote for Warren if Bernie falters in the early states). Plus, I like you a lot GritNGlitter. And I agree that nobody knows exactly who is going to be electible versus Trump in 2020. I just get frustrated by some of these narratives that derive directly from what the media is pushing and the fact that your post got so many up-votes.

I may have posted this earlier and I understand that video editing is inherently designed to charge up a person's emotions but this video sums up a lot of my frustrations with the way the has continued to cover Bernie in 2020. Of particular note is the Daily Show segment which intentionally removes context in a blatant attempt to play up and push the perception of Bernie as a grumpy old man. I work as an editor and have cut my fair share of comedy segments (and grew up worshiping John Stewart) but, to me, the way the footage is manipulated is extremely problematic:

 
Oh also... I originally came here to say that this Tulsi, Clinton thing is completely bat shit and I have no idea about what to think on any of it.

But as my buddy pointed out- the company that started the Tulsi is a Russian asset rumors is the same firm that got caught by the NYT "fabricating Russian troll accounts on behalf of the Democratic Party in the Alabama Senate race to manufacture false accusations that the Kremlin was interfering in that election".

www.nytimes.com

Secret Experiment in Alabama Senate Race Imitated Russian Tactics (Published 2018)

A project to help the Democratic contender, Doug Jones, in his closely contested race against Roy Moore used deception on Facebook and Twitter.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

www.businessinsider.com

Facebook suspended five accounts for spreading misleading information during an Alabama election, including a lead social media researcher who helped the government discover fake news

Facebook suspended five accounts for spreading misleading information during the special election in Alabama last year.
www.businessinsider.com www.businessinsider.com

theintercept.com

NBC News, to Claim Russia Supports Tulsi Gabbard, Relies on Firm Just Caught Fabricating Russia Data for the Democratic Party

The playbook of the Democratic Party and its allies is a simple one: Smear any adversary of the party’s establishment wing as an asset of the Kremlin.
theintercept.com theintercept.com
 
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DownIsTheNewUp said:
Oh also... I originally came here to say that this Tulsi, Clinton thing is completely bat shit and I have no idea about what to think on any of it.

That said, the same people who started the Tulsi is a Russian / Syrian asset rumors are from the same firm that imitated Russian trolls to help swing Doug Jones election in Alabama.

www.nytimes.com

Secret Experiment in Alabama Senate Race Imitated Russian Tactics (Published 2018)

A project to help the Democratic contender, Doug Jones, in his closely contested race against Roy Moore used deception on Facebook and Twitter.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

www.businessinsider.com

Facebook suspended five accounts for spreading misleading information during an Alabama election, including a lead social media researcher who helped the government discover fake news

Facebook suspended five accounts for spreading misleading information during the special election in Alabama last year.
www.businessinsider.com www.businessinsider.com

theintercept.com

NBC News, to Claim Russia Supports Tulsi Gabbard, Relies on Firm Just Caught Fabricating Russia Data for the Democratic Party

The playbook of the Democratic Party and its allies is a simple one: Smear any adversary of the party’s establishment wing as an asset of the Kremlin.
theintercept.com theintercept.com
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I mean, it sounds completely insane but at the same time actually makes some sense.
 
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