Political Discussion

[DownIsTheNewUp]

I don’t like this narrative that basically says that my parents and thier generation are the problem and are terrible people. I take much more issue with the proportion of wealth that is held by 1% of the worlds population than I am in starting a pointless and divisive generation war. Me, and most of my contemporaries, would not own any property without the significant financial help of our boomer parents. The issue is not there, it is with the ultra wealthy controlling the political agenda to protect their own wealth.

I don't disagree. And that was not the intent of my post.

I think the rest of my post's have made it pretty clear that I am a Sander's supporter for the very reasons you mention. The importance of the above Tweet lies in helping bridge the lack of understanding between generations as it pertains to the economic realities that millennials have and (Gen Z) will continue to face if we a) keep Trump in office or B) elect somebody like Pete or Biden who are very much a part of the status quo. And really, I think the animosity that millenials and (especially) Gen Z is beginning to embody pertains to Boomers and Gen X being unwilling to budge on their ideologies because a good chunk of them own homes and stocks and so they are completely detached from our reality.

In another example, a meme is currently circulating that pokes fun of the "ten year challenge" by pointing out the minimum wage is the same now as in 2009. A friend of mine then responded with:

2009 rent: 2 bedroom 2 bathroom $850/mo
2019 rent: 1 bedroom 1 bathroom $1300/mo (half the space for two thirds the price.....) but wait!
2 bedroom 2 bathroom $1600/mo

She is based out of Salt Lake. In Los Angeles it would be:

2009 rent: 2 bedroom 2 bathroom $1500
2019 rent: 2 bedroom 2 bathroom $2300

My parents home value in the suburns southeast of Denver;

2009: $300k
2019: $650-700k

Edit: Even last week in our conversations about Generations @jaycee (who I very much respect and love chatting with here) said : "I mean yes, but isn't this just history repeating itself. I'm somewhere on that gen-x gen-y cusp and the economic reality for me, coming from modest means, with some racially-based privilege, seemed just as dire when Gen-Zers were just being born. I'm sure it's worse in some ways today".

Jaycee is one of the most left leaning people on these boards and his larger point that we have been on a downward trajectory for decades is 1000% accurate. But, in his response, even he seems unaware of just how much worse it is now than it was when Gen X was my age. That's somewhat expected and understandable, but it emphasizes how much work there is to bridge the gap.

Not only is owning property a pipe dream for most of my generation, study after study is coming out that says my generation is forgoing having children, not only because of fears over climate change, but because they flat out can't afford too.

The US birthrate is the lowest it's been in 32 years, and it's partly because millennials can't afford having kids

As millennials delay having kids for financial reasons, the US birthrate is at its lowest for the first time in 32 years, according to a CDC report.

www.businessinsider.com

'Babies? An impossible dream': the millennials priced out of parenthood

Has the recession created a generation too insecure to have children? Meet the people trapped in financial adolescence

www.theguardian.com

 

[swamp]

Me, and most of my contemporaries, do not own any property as the benevolent boomers have not granted us their grace.

 

[Joe Mac]

I don't disagree. And that was not the intent of my post.

I think the rest of my post's have made it pretty clear that I am a Sander's supporter for the very reasons you mention. The importance of the above Tweet lies in helping bridge the lack of understanding between generations as it pertains to the economic realities that millennials have and (Gen Z) will continue to face if we a) keep Trump in office or B) elect somebody like Pete or Biden who are very much a part of the status quo. And really, I think the animosity that millenials and (especially) Gen Z is beginning to embody pertains to Boomers and Gen X being unwilling to budge on their ideologies because a good chunk of them own homes and stocks and so they are completely detached from our reality.

In another example, a meme is currently circulating that pokes fun of the "ten year challenge" by pointing out the minimum wage is the same now as in 2009. A friend of mine then responded with:

2009 rent: 2 bedroom 2 bathroom $850/mo
2019 rent: 1 bedroom 1 bathroom $1300/mo (half the space for two thirds the price.....) but wait!
2 bedroom 2 bathroom $1600/mo

She is based out of Salt Lake. In Los Angeles it would be:

2009 rent: 2 bedroom 2 bathroom $1500
2019 rent: 2 bedroom 2 bathroom $2300

My parents home value in the suburns southeast of Denver;

2009: $300k
2019: $650-700k

Edit: Even last week in our conversations about Generations @jaycee (who I very much respect and love chatting with here) said : "I mean yes, but isn't this just history repeating itself. I'm somewhere on that gen-x gen-y cusp and the economic reality for me, coming from modest means, with some racially-based privilege, seemed just as dire when Gen-Zers were just being born. I'm sure it's worse in some ways today".

Jaycee is one of the most left leaning people on these boards and his larger point that we have been on a downward trajectory for decades is 1000% accurate. But, in his response, even he seems unaware of just how much worse it is now than it was when Gen X was my age. That's somewhat expected and understandable, but it emphasizes how much work there is to bridge the gap.

Not only is owning property a pipe dream for most of my generation, study after study is coming out that says my generation is forgoing having children, not only because of fears over climate change, but because they flat out can't afford too.

The US birthrate is the lowest it's been in 32 years, and it's partly because millennials can't afford having kids

As millennials delay having kids for financial reasons, the US birthrate is at its lowest for the first time in 32 years, according to a CDC report.

www.businessinsider.com

'Babies? An impossible dream': the millennials priced out of parenthood

Has the recession created a generation too insecure to have children? Meet the people trapped in financial adolescence

www.theguardian.com

Rising property prices are down to much more than boomers voting to protect their assets. In many ways it’s down to the move towards a service economy leading to a a rise in urbanisation due the “cluster effect”, to poor urban design, planning processes that are not fit for purpose, to an inability to build the type and volume of properties required to address this and the lack of political will to address the rising trend for properties built solely for speculative investors who leave them empty. All of this protects the 1% and their wealth, not the boomers who are worried about the price of their suburban lot.

I still think generation wars are pointless and we need to effectively tax the super wealthy, dealing with the issue internationally to avoid tax regime shopping, and reinvest the money effectively to create a fairer system.

Living over here I don’t know huge amounts about your candidates, other than the fact none inspires me. I can say that we are all facing similar issues the world over and that it will not be easy promises and saviours that get us out of this. Personally I take no candidate without a radical green agenda seriously.

 

[jaycee]

I don't disagree. And that was not the intent of my post.

I think the rest of my post's have made it pretty clear that I am a Sander's supporter for the very reasons you mention. The importance of the above Tweet lies in helping bridge the lack of understanding between generations as it pertains to the economic realities that millennials have and (Gen Z) will continue to face if we a) keep Trump in office or B) elect somebody like Pete or Biden who are very much a part of the status quo. And really, I think the animosity that millenials and (especially) Gen Z is beginning to embody pertains to Boomers and Gen X being unwilling to budge on their ideologies because a good chunk of them own homes and stocks and so they are completely detached from our reality.

In another example, a meme is currently circulating that pokes fun of the "ten year challenge" by pointing out the minimum wage is the same now as in 2009. A friend of mine then responded with:

2009 rent: 2 bedroom 2 bathroom $850/mo
2019 rent: 1 bedroom 1 bathroom $1300/mo (half the space for two thirds the price.....) but wait!
2 bedroom 2 bathroom $1600/mo

She is based out of Salt Lake. In Los Angeles it would be:

2009 rent: 2 bedroom 2 bathroom $1500
2019 rent: 2 bedroom 2 bathroom $2300

My parents home value in the suburns southeast of Denver;

2009: $300k
2019: $650-700k

Edit: Even last week in our conversations about Generations @jaycee (who I very much respect and love chatting with here) said : "I mean yes, but isn't this just history repeating itself. I'm somewhere on that gen-x gen-y cusp and the economic reality for me, coming from modest means, with some racially-based privilege, seemed just as dire when Gen-Zers were just being born. I'm sure it's worse in some ways today".

Jaycee is one of the most left leaning people on these boards and his larger point that we have been on a downward trajectory for decades is 1000% accurate. But, in his response, even he seems unaware of just how much worse it is now than it was when Gen X was my age. That's somewhat expected and understandable, but it emphasizes how much work there is to bridge the gap.

Not only is owning property a pipe dream for most of my generation, study after study is coming out that says my generation is forgoing having children, not only because of fears over climate change, but because they flat out can't afford too.

The US birthrate is the lowest it's been in 32 years, and it's partly because millennials can't afford having kids

As millennials delay having kids for financial reasons, the US birthrate is at its lowest for the first time in 32 years, according to a CDC report.

www.businessinsider.com

'Babies? An impossible dream': the millennials priced out of parenthood

Has the recession created a generation too insecure to have children? Meet the people trapped in financial adolescence

www.theguardian.com

Owning property was and remains a pipe dream for me.
Younger people haven't been working long enough to accumulate the wealth, which is a fact buried somewhere in that data.
I'm not saying there isn't truth in the narrative about gen-z + having a harder time in today's economic reality.
I am saying that the narrative is more complex than "it's harder now" Some people could probably afford property someplace they don't want to live, like in small town America. Of course, there aren't jobs so nobody moves there, and who wants to live someplace where you don't share political identity with your neighbors (I believe you posted something about this awhile back), but these are choices we make. They may not be fair choices, they may be the choices we feel like we have to make, but they are choices. I don't know how old you are, and I'm just one person, but i spent my 20's digging holes (literally) and never earning more than $9.50 an hour with a BSc in Environmental Science. I wasn't stupid. I worked hard and I got along with people. I went back to grad school in my 30's because I (perhaps stupidly) thought that I had to to have a more fulfilling work life. I paid for both of my degrees out of pocket with some help from an academic scholarship as an undergrad and working for the University in grad school. I made it out, but it took until I was 38 to make anything resembling a middle class salary. If I had gone to tech school or gotten even a modicum of help form my parents maybe I would be better off, but it it what it is.

You almost certainly don't have it worse than I did. Did more people my age do better than more people your age? Maybe - probably - I don't know, but you aren't 40 yet so who knows. I'm not look for sympathy - I made the choices I made - but I think it's very narrow-sighted to suggest that gen-x, y had it much easier.

 

[RenegadeMonster]

Me, and most of my contemporaries, do not own any property as the benevolent boomers have not granted us their grace.

Around here you can not find a house for less than a million. Unless you look in very bad neighborhoods that are not well kept up. A place you would never want to raise a family due to safety concerns. I simply can not afford to buy a million plus home.

On top of that, I have too much student loan debt. I can't get approved without a co-signer and only can get about half of what I should be able to borrow if I had no student loan debt.


Also, if you look at the average salaries of middle class workers, they are the same today as they were 40 years ago.

There are also fewer and fewer high paying job in manufacturing and more and more minimum wage service based jobs compared to 40 years ago.

You also have people say look, minimum wage is much higher than it was 40 years ago.

No it's not. If you account for inflation and the cost of living increasing that minimum wage has the value of only about 50% of the value the lower minimum wage had 40 years ago.

 

[RenegadeMonster]

Rising property prices are down to much more than boomers voting to protect their assets. In many ways it’s down to the move towards a service economy leading to a a rise in urbanisation due the “cluster effect”, to poor urban design, planning processes that are not fit for purpose, to an inability to build the type and volume of properties required to address this and the lack of political will to address the rising trend for properties built solely for speculative investors who leave them empty. All of this protects the 1% and their wealth, not the boomers who are worried about the price of their suburban lot.

I still think generation wars are pointless and we need to effectively tax the super wealthy, dealing with the issue internationally to avoid tax regime shopping, and reinvest the money effectively to create a fairer system.

Living over here I don’t know huge amounts about your candidates, other than the fact none inspires me. I can say that we are all facing similar issues the world over and that it will not be easy promises and saviours that get us out of this. Personally I take no candidate without a radical green agenda seriously.

Not only just that, but the housing market always depends on buying low and selling high. It's how most americans have made their wealth over the years. But it requires that the next generation has the wealth to buy high (which would be their low and sell much higher). We are reaching the tipping point where there just aren't enough people to sell high.

So us Millennials who are fortunate enough to own property, (not me), will have a very hard if not impossible time selling high later. We wont be able to accumulate the same kind of wealth with property as previous generations.

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

Rising property prices are down to much more than boomers voting to protect their assets. In many ways it’s down to the move towards a service economy leading to a a rise in urbanisation due the “cluster effect”, to poor urban design, planning processes that are not fit for purpose, to an inability to build the type and volume of properties required to address this and the lack of political will to address the rising trend for properties built solely for speculative investors who leave them empty. All of this protects the 1% and their wealth, not the boomers who are worried about the price of their suburban lot.

Again. Nothing here do I disagree with. I agree with all of it. My point about home ownership is that it impacts Boomers voting habits. Which then effects policy and results in all the things you mention. And THAT's where the anger comes from. The complacency of older generations as it pertains to our current politicians and their defense of center-right ideologies that have ruled the day during the exact 40 year period that all of this wealth has shifted to the 1%.

We also agree that a candidate without a "radical green agenda" is not a candidate worth supporting. That said, Sander's plans in that regard are fantastic. Warren's pretty ok. Everyone else- not so much.

Owning property was and remains a pipe dream for me.
Younger people haven't been working long enough to accumulate the wealth, which is a fact buried somewhere in that data.
I'm not saying there isn't truth in the narrative about gen-z + having a harder time in today's economic reality.
I am saying that the narrative is more complex than "it's harder now" Some people could probably afford property someplace they don't want to live, like in small town America. Of course, there aren't jobs so nobody moves there, and who wants to live someplace where you don't share political identity with your neighbors (I believe you posted something about this awhile back), but these are choices we make. They may not be fair choices, they may be the choices we feel like we have to make, but they are choices. I don't know how old you are, and I'm just one person, but i spent my 20's digging holes (literally) and never earning more than $9.50 an hour with a BSc in Environmental Science. I wasn't stupid. I worked hard and I got along with people. I went back to grad school in my 30's because I (perhaps stupidly) thought that I had to to have a more fulfilling work life. I paid for both of my degrees out of pocket with some help from an academic scholarship as an undergrad and working for the University in grad school. I made it out, but it took until I was 38 to make anything resembling a middle class salary. If I had gone to tech school or gotten even a modicum of help form my parents maybe I would be better off, but it it what it is.

You almost certainly don't have it worse than I did. Did more people my age do better than more people your age? Maybe - probably - I don't know, but you aren't 40 yet so who knows. I'm not look for sympathy - I made the choices I made - but I think it's very narrow-sighted to suggest that gen-x, y had it much easier.

I don't think 1 x 1 comparisons are useful- particularly when we are talking about socio-economics of different generations. I was in no way implying that you, yourself had it easy. Particularly because we've had other conversations that have helped fill in your background.

Your points about the option of moving elsewhere is valid, but the reality- as you allude to- is that the places with a strong economy are where the good jobs are and those places tend to have very high rent and property prices. I'd also point out that one of the 3 places listed above is Salt Lake City. Not sure that qualifies as a big city or a hip place to live.

You mention accumulated wealth- but this is part of what that tweet was getting at. We are way behind previous generations in that regard. Another way of framing it is that Boomers made 20% more at the same age- without any of the educational debt and while living in a far less expensive world.

I remember that at the height of the recession- a time where I was making 13k a year while working two jobs and watching my brand new 60k in student debt balloon- reading a lot of articles about how the impact of the recession on millenials was likely to be permanent. That coming of age in the recession and getting stuck working minimum wage jobs for a 3-5 year period was likely to have a crippling ripple effect on the long term wealth of millenials. Essentially because by the time the economy recovers- employers would often just rather go with the fresh face out of college while people my age would resort to going back for grad school. At the time, I brushed it off because my father (who was drafted but doged Nam') rightfully pointed out that those of his generation that survived the war wound up just fine economically.

The difference- as time has shown (and @Joe Mac points out), is that it's mostly the 1% that benefited once the economy recovered. Wages have stayed stagnant while cost of living has sky rocketed (along with everyone's student debt).

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

I’d be interested in seeing that cross-referenced against some data showing changes in racial/ethnic demographics, which I think is a not-insignificant part of this story. Much of the boomer generation that sucked up wealth also happened to be pretty racially homogenous. One of the dominant narratives of the last few decades has been a rise in minority representation in our national makeup; so along with generational change, you now also have new groups of people breaking into the middle class, or what remains of it, only to find that those who were there first reaped much of what was to be had and absconded to gated communities.

I'm not sure I see the relevance? The data I've seen over the years tends to frame it as generational in sum regardless of race or ethnicity. The policies of privatization, deregulation, free trade, exc effect all of us- and honestly, minority communities even more so since those communities tended to be poorer and less advantaged to begin with.

 

[Renée]

My party, the Libertarian Party, lost ballot access in my home state of Maryland (due to the idiocy surrounding our joke of a Governor's race with 2 garbage main candidates).

As such, I have registered as a Democrat so that I may vote in the Democratic primary. Leaning towards Yang, but could also see myself voting for Bernie. We'll see who's still in when we get there.

 

[Joe Mac]

My party, the Libertarian Party, lost ballot access in my home state of Maryland (due to the idiocy surrounding our joke of a Governor's race with 2 garbage main candidates).

As such, I have registered as a Democrat so that I may vote in the Democratic primary. Leaning towards Yang, but could also see myself voting for Bernie. We'll see who's still in when we get there.

From what I gather of libertarianism (it’s not so big over here) it seems to be in favour of extremes in terms of small state and a laissez-fair economic policy. How do you square that with the dems who, whilst centre right to me, are probably the only real advocates for any sizeable government and state intervention in the economy, particularly if Bernie is picked? Or is an anything but tangerine vote?

 

[AnthonyI]

I'm going to present this comment/question as a stupid middle aged-ish Baby Boomer. I keep reading posts about how Boomers sucked up all the wealth, were better off that everyone else, had it easier and so on. But I gotta be honest, and maybe I, and my circle of boomers I grew up with, worked our asses off.

I'm 55 and have never made more than $48k a year in my life, I didn't finish college because my immigrant parents couldn't afford it and the right opportunity, job wise, presented itself and I chose the money over education.........not a wise choice. I worked in and around my field of interest over the years and saved, took advantage of employer 401K's and whatever presented itself to make a little more. My wife and I bought a small house while she was working her way through college.

We made about 50K on that home to buy our current home, which we'll finally have paid off in another 18 months, praise the lord, in that time we've had 3 kids, raised them, put one through college, one is 3 years into college and I'm sure we'll make it happen for the third some how.

We had both my in-laws living with us when they couldn't afford their home anymore and physically couldn't work anymore. My mother-in-law still lives with us, we care for her, my father-in-law passed away a few years ago.

We've pretty much lived paycheck to paycheck as long as I can remember, it hasn't been easy by any means, but we do the things we have to do to keep a roof over our heads, food on the table and do better for our children.

I have no complaints about my life, I've made good and bad decisions, but people need to stop assuming what any given generation had or didn't have handed to them based completely on numbers on a spread sheet. We're all in this together and the blame game gets us nowhere, the sad truth of it is that inevitably we end up worrying about our own little corner of the sand box, our own little world because we, I, don't see anyone in government really giving a damn about me and my family.

So I work to make that little space a happy place for them for as long as I can and my concerns in life aren't about me anymore, but about my children and my childrens children and so on.

A bit of a rant and I do apologize, but reading over and over again how "I" had it easier is a little annoying.

 

[jaycee]

I'm going to present this comment/question as a stupid middle aged-ish Baby Boomer. I keep reading posts about how Boomers sucked up all the wealth, were better off that everyone else, had it easier and so on. But I gotta be honest, and maybe I, and my circle of boomers I grew up with, worked our asses off.

I'm 55 and have never made more than $48k a year in my life, I didn't finish college because my immigrant parents couldn't afford it and the right opportunity, job wise, presented itself and I chose the money over education.........not a wise choice. I worked in and around my field of interest over the years and saved, took advantage of employer 401K's and whatever presented itself to make a little more. My wife and I bought a small house while she was working her way through college.

We made about 50K on that home to buy our current home, which we'll finally have paid off in another 18 months, praise the lord, in that time we've had 3 kids, raised them, put one through college, one is 3 years into college and I'm sure we'll make it happen for the third some how.

We had both my in-laws living with us when they couldn't afford their home anymore and physically couldn't work anymore. My mother-in-law still lives with us, we care for her, my father-in-law passed away a few years ago.

We've pretty much lived paycheck to paycheck as long as I can remember, it hasn't been easy by any means, but we do the things we have to do to keep a roof over our heads, food on the table and do better for our children.

I have no complaints about my life, I've made good and bad decisions, but people need to stop assuming what any given generation had or didn't have handed to them based completely on numbers on a spread sheet. We're all in this together and the blame game gets us nowhere, the sad truth of it is that inevitably we end up worrying about our own little corner of the sand box, our own little world because we, I, don't see anyone in government really giving a damn about me and my family.

So I work to make that little space a happy place for them for as long as I can and my concerns in life aren't about me anymore, but about my children and my childrens children and so on.

A bit of a rant and I do apologize, but reading over and over again how "I" had it easier is a little annoying.

Thank you.

It's strange the housing / real-estate scam is being conflated with post-WW2 babies. Yes, many real-estate developers are older white men, as many of the people that live more comfortably than many other people are, but even a cursory glance at the real-estate story shows that financial institutions and individuals that want to hide wealth from the tax man and law enforcement have created the false market we are all living under.

I maintain that however true/factual the socio-economic class data is that it's a next to useless activity (particularly politically) to divide people by the supposed ease of their lives. I think this is where sociology and behavioral economics goes wrong. People's age and behaviors are useful indicators but they are not necessarily predictors of the future. Are they reasonable categories to make decisions on? In some cases yes and in some cases probably not. Generational categorization falls into the probably not camp for me.

If the approach to policy is 'Boomers stole from future to pay the present and let's rectify that' I think it's probably bad policy and probably means the individuals and institutions that do make the choices that keep damaging lives get to continue to do so.

I get that people are angry and frustrated, they should be, but these generational categories are one of the methodologies being used to keep people unorganized and weak.

 

[jaycee]

From what I gather of libertarianism (it’s not so big over here) it seems to be in favour of extremes in terms of small state and a laissez-fair economic policy.

That's pretty much correct.

It's just another political gang imo and just as ineffective as the others.

Related:
Americans still fail to balance state's rights with national policy for many reasons, but mostly because people view the discussions and arguments in a very black and white fashion. It's always implied if not outright stated that any federal policy or program is infringing on your state/individual rights. which is ridiculous. Of course, much of the federal policies are less than effective because they are continually undercut by the state's rights folks and those that believe in taking down the federal system through private profiteering. They do so by creating burdensome reporting requirements under the guise of fraud protection and they frankly don't pay enough to hire our best and brightest to formulate policy. Those folks are often working for industry or academia.

Stereotypes:
We also remain a nation of religious zealots who seemingly believe in their idols before their fellow human being.

Couple that all with a die-hard belief in the Chicago school (Milton Friedman) and Ayn Rand and you get a bunch of mostly white dudes, who sometimes believe in something useful for the wrong reasons, that think they're smarter than everyone else.

 

[AnthonyI]

All I know is the for decades we've separated people by race and religion.....apparently that segmentation is running out of juice, so now we're going to add a generational split.

Divide, divide, divide, people need to wake up and see what's happening.

 

[RenegadeMonster]

I'm going to present this comment/question as a stupid middle aged-ish Baby Boomer. I keep reading posts about how Boomers sucked up all the wealth, were better off that everyone else, had it easier and so on. But I gotta be honest, and maybe I, and my circle of boomers I grew up with, worked our asses off.

I'm 55 and have never made more than $48k a year in my life, I didn't finish college because my immigrant parents couldn't afford it and the right opportunity, job wise, presented itself and I chose the money over education.........not a wise choice. I worked in and around my field of interest over the years and saved, took advantage of employer 401K's and whatever presented itself to make a little more. My wife and I bought a small house while she was working her way through college.

We made about 50K on that home to buy our current home, which we'll finally have paid off in another 18 months, praise the lord, in that time we've had 3 kids, raised them, put one through college, one is 3 years into college and I'm sure we'll make it happen for the third some how.

We had both my in-laws living with us when they couldn't afford their home anymore and physically couldn't work anymore. My mother-in-law still lives with us, we care for her, my father-in-law passed away a few years ago.

We've pretty much lived paycheck to paycheck as long as I can remember, it hasn't been easy by any means, but we do the things we have to do to keep a roof over our heads, food on the table and do better for our children.

I have no complaints about my life, I've made good and bad decisions, but people need to stop assuming what any given generation had or didn't have handed to them based completely on numbers on a spread sheet. We're all in this together and the blame game gets us nowhere, the sad truth of it is that inevitably we end up worrying about our own little corner of the sand box, our own little world because we, I, don't see anyone in government really giving a damn about me and my family.

So I work to make that little space a happy place for them for as long as I can and my concerns in life aren't about me anymore, but about my children and my childrens children and so on.

A bit of a rant and I do apologize, but reading over and over again how "I" had it easier is a little annoying.

Oh for sure. Not everyone had it easy and most people probably did work their asses off.

Success was regional too. For example, in the North East and I'm sure in other areas across the country wealth was accumulated by owning property. I know some boomers who bought their first house at less than 100k, sold it for more than 450k But their second house for 320k and sold it for 1.2 million. It's just insane how much property values have gone up in Eastern Massachussets since the 70s.

Also mining, manufacturing were much more prevalent and git construction projects such as building the freeways were going on back then and unions had more power.

For most of the middle class, college was unnecessary, they could go straight in to the work force and make 80k at the types of jobs listed above. That means they entered the workforce without a massive amount of student loan debt.

It was much much cheaper to buy a house back then. The cost of living was much lower. So for many boomers lucky enough to have those blue collar jobs it was easy for them to accumulate wealth.

Those are the people I think we are referring too when we say the boomers had it easy. Those same high paying middle class jobs simply do not exist in the same abundance today. And where they do, they still pay the same if not less than in the 1970s.

My experience as a Millennials has been a real struggle. I graduated from college with my 4 year degree and minor in 2008 just as the recession hit. It took me nearly 6 months to find my first job out of college (in my field, I was working retail jobs). 6 months later the small advertising agency I was working at went out of business.

For the next couple of years I ended up working 3 part time jobs at the same time with no benefits making only 30k a year. By no benefits I mean no medical, one of the retail jobs did have 401k which I took advantage of. Places simply were not hiring web developers. The opposite was happening. Layoffs, downsizing and off shoring.

During this time period I had to use up all my deferment / forbearance time available on my student loans. The cost of living plus my car payment for the car I needed to drive to work ate up all my pay.

--------------
Oops, Apparently my post is two long and I have to split it between two separate posts.

 

[RenegadeMonster]

I kept trying to find jobs in my field, whether full-time employment or freelance. Full time jobs were far and few between and most wanted 5+ years of experience or 10+ years of experience. I applied for them anyways because I could do everything the job required. But I simply was not getting the interviews. And a few people called back to let me know they decided to move on with other candidates. I didn't have enough job experience. A lot of the freelance work being posted on Craigs List was unpaid. "Great experience for you resume!". There were also lots of unpaid internships being posted on the job board on Craigs list.

Meanwhile, why working 3 part time jobs and 60+ hours a week at all odd hours was putting to much stress on my body. I started getting panic attacks out of the blue left and right for the first time in my life. My mother gets them so I inherited it from her.

I ended up taking a management position at one of the retail stores I was working at for 33K a year and benefits. I was still living paycheck to paycheck, but at least I had one job now and more free time on my hands to try to find a job I wanted.

At this time there was a rise in those bidding sites for jobs. I tried to take as much freelance work as I could. But I was finding that unless I bidded competitively with the rates those people on those sites from India and Pakistan there was a 95% chance I would not get that gig. So, that meant that nearly 100% of the jobs I landed equated to about $1 an hour for the work I did. Really it only helped me build my resume and grow experience.

After 3 years I finally found a job at a start up. And advertising agency was testing a concept of a retail agency space where people can walk in and buy a website, or business cards, a logo or come in and have what ever they needed printed. Business was close to non-existent and it wasn't long before I was laid off.

At this point in time I was laid of 15 months before I found full time employment again. I was taking what ever temp agency work I could get or freelance job I could find. So it was like one day of work here and there. And of course, since I used all of my deferment and forbearance on my student loans already it was tough luck with the lenders. They would not work with me at all and my student loans defaulted.

Only 5 or so places I applied I ever heard back from. Travelled to lots of places for interviews during this time. As far as MD or IL. I was applying for everything and everywhere. If finding employment meant relocating, I was open for it. I moved back in with my parents during this time, and spend on my money that I did earned traveling to interviews.

The story I heard was pretty much all the same. I didn't have enough experience. And all the entry level jobs were designed for college graduates within their first year of graduation. There was a earned tax credit for businesses hiring college graduates within the first year of graduation. This basically made them totally uninterested in hiring me because they would not get that tax credit. I was flat at told I was not qualified for this position because I have been out of school for more than a year.

I ended up finding a temp agency in Boston that specializes in creatives and developers. I got my foot in the door at a few places, only to learn that they couldn't hiring me for a year because of the finders fee they would have to pay the temp agency. Most of the temp jobs were a week or two. Some were for a day. A lot of the day ones the client declined on me because they said I would be unreliable as I have to commuting into Boston from Western Massachussets. Traffic is bad.

I finally found a temp job that lasted 3 months, and turned into full time employment. I was hired at 46k a year. I no longer wanted to make the drive into Boston from Western Mass / My parents house, who wanted me to get back out on my own by then of course. So I looked for apartments closer to Boston. I found that anything around Boston was unaffordable. I ended up finding an apartment in Salem that was a nice place and one of the cheapest rents I have yet to find within 90 minutes commute to Boston.

I had to cash in my 401k to make first months, last months and security deposit. I also used that money to bring my student loans up to current. My first year and a half was rough. Rent was 70% of my take home pay or like 44% of my income. And as we all know the financially responsible rent amount is 30% of your income max:

Rule of thumb: Spend a fixed percentage of your income on housing. The general recommendation is to spend about 30% of your gross monthly income (before taxes) on rent. Therefore, if you'll be making $4,000 per month, then your rent should be $4,000 x 0.3, or about $1,200.

In the Boston and the immediate surrounding communities, studio apartments started at $4300. For the last 15 years or so the trend has only been to build luxury apartment complex. The rend I found in Salem was $1640 a month for a 1 bedroom apartment. One of the very few places I found for less than 2k.

Because the cost of living was so high, and I was attempting to pay off my student loans I ended up charging a lot necessities and utilities. I built up a massive amount of credit card debit in 2 years when I finally got a raise. Which was completely offset by making my minimums for my credit cards. I ended up falling behind on my student loans again.

I now make 65k a year. And I'm having to take as much freelance jobs as I can get to fund paying student loans and my record addiction as well as trying to pay down debt, which feels like I'm getting nowhere. I can't get by on just my one salary of 65k.

I graduated college with 55k in student loan debit. Todays payoff value is 80k. 25k higher than when I graduated. If by just paying the minimum payments, I will be paying more than 200k over the life of the loan.

My rent goes up by about $100 each year when I renew my lease. But so does every other place. Each year I look and see if I can find a cheaper place and I never can.

My rent is double what my parents mortgage is, and their mortgage is split between 2 people.

I can't afford to buy a house, nor could I ever get approved. I would need a co-signer because of my student loan debt. At this point in time in my life, I don't ever see myself as being able to afford a home. It truly is a pipe dream.


Granted my experience has been rougher than most as I'm single. I just don't get out enough to meet people. I'm a little bit on the introverted side and I rarely if ever go out because I simply can't afford it on my budget. So it's like where / how can I meet someone. So my cost of living has never ben split with a significant other.


Also, some other trends I noticed. Back when I was in college being a web developer looked like an easy path to a 6 figure job. It's not anymore. The recession hit. Off shoring happened.

I know for a fact there is no career path where I work to become a senior level developer or make six figures. Why? Our clients say we are too expensive constantly. To stay competitive we would want to have 3 jr's making 40k a year instead of a senior making 6 figures and pump out more work. I have seen most of the seniors laid off since starting.

Also the job is evolving. We are finding ourselves more and more in consultant rules and overseeing projects being offshored. For many of our clients, we are no longer an authorized dev place because we are "too expensive". We have to work with their dev partners overseas and it's so frustrating having to hold their hands and walk them through how to build what we want.

In 2008 clients would pay huge salaries for flash developers. Today a lot of clients don't see much value in paying more than minimum wage / 15 an hour for development. That 120k job with 5+ years experience does not exist. Only full stack web developers with 20+ years experience who make a city salary, such as NYC or Boston get that much.

 

[RenegadeMonster]

Also, just wanted to add that in this area, based on the average costs of rent, your salary should 83k a year for a 1 bedroom apartment and over 100k for 2 bedroom.

Most middle class individuals do not make that kind of money.

 

[Renée]

From what I gather of libertarianism (it’s not so big over here) it seems to be in favour of extremes in terms of small state and a laissez-fair economic policy. How do you square that with the dems who, whilst centre right to me, are probably the only real advocates for any sizeable government and state intervention in the economy, particularly if Bernie is picked? Or is an anything but tangerine vote?

Libertarians very much disagree with each other on how much government should be involved with the economy. I consider myself as more of an economically left-libertarian, in that I support government intervention where appropriate (housing/rent control, healthcare, etc), and believe they should stay out of the economy elsewhere.

That said, I'm a Democrat as a protest of the Republican Party and the Trump administration. The candidate who I actually support right now is Bill Weld, who is primarying Trump. Sadly, Weld has zero chance. So, I will vote for the Democrat who I believe is fit to defeat Trump and lead this country.

 

[jaycee]

In other words, I think a lot of the generational "split" isn't, at its core, about disputes as much as it's about a delayed handoff of the reins that would have occurred more gradually/organically had the financial crisis not happened.

I feel similarly.

It's the Thanksgiving table analogy. You sit at the kiddie table until someone dies.

That's a gross over-simplification, but I worry about the loss of institutional knowledge in my field. The particular world I work in has almost no system for transferring knowledge, and it's often times up to individuals to seek out that learning.

Experience remains vital and the most sucessful places of business have a synergistic relationship between experience and the new skills that are often brought by younger folks.

 

[RenegadeMonster]

100%. I'm 35, and all of my co-workers are in their mid-50s. We were just talking yesterday about how our team would function better if we could hire, not just a couple of new people, but a couple of new people that already have 5 years of experience in this fairly narrowly specialized line of work. And that sort of employee just doesn't exist...not here, anyway. Instead we'll probably plug along like this for a few more years until the most senior guys call it a day, and then we'll start all over again with a new crop of totally green new people, and it'll be on *me* to pass down that information the best I can. Once that cycle has been started it's tough to revert to a more natural rate of turnover to keep the right mix.

That type of situation is more common than you think in this country as well.

That's why you often hear on the job reports there are a lot of places hiring. And they simply can not find the skilled workers for the position.

They often like to through that first part of the stat around to say look how good the economy is, the job market. There are good jobs out there and companies can't seem to fill them. Learn a highly specialized skill and you will be all set.

But like you said, experience comes into play and inside knowledge. It's not that easy.