Political Discussion

If the dems don’t nominate her in favor of a white woman or a white male that very few people know, black voters will absolutely be upset.
I'm sure some will, but the data that's currently out there just does not support the idea that she's the candidate Black voters want. I agree if it's a no name who is a replacement that there would be reason to blame the Dems for doing it on race reasons. But that's hardly even a discussion right now. And it's important to remember that it's not up to Biden to name his replacement if he drops out. Granted his voice will carry weight on it if he does, but it's still up to the Dems at the convention if he releases their vote, many of whom are electors of different races.
 
That is a much different argument than saying that Black folks will think she got passed over and be pissed about it.
To me, it goes without saying that even if she's unpopular with black folks, black folks would still be pissed if she got passed over for a white woman or white man when she was one seat away from being the first African American female to be President.

Honestly, if Biden stays in and loses, I want him to resign just so we can all experience the first woman president for this country since we won't have another opportunity going forward unless it's a Trumpian Republican woman.
 
Still don't agree with this take. Her recent poll numbers are still abysmal and she's still not even as popular as Biden is with Black voters. I'm all for nominating a Black woman, but identity politics aren't going to make her more popular with Black voters. Race isn't the only thing and I do think it's kind of insulting to think Black voters will only prioritize that. Imagine if Kanye was nominated. He's certainly get some of the Black vote, but he'd also get a ton of Black folks talking about how he's a shit bag and not someone they'd vote for.

This conversation is far more nuanced than my rushing around sweating to get errands done and then coraling a toddler all day is going to allow me to really think thinks out, so please bear with me if I don't get it all right the first time...

Identity politics suck for sure, and I absolutely don't think Harris is the answer to gaining black voters... but I'm sure passing her over as next in line in favour if a lesser known white person will absolutely lose them a decent chunk of the black voters they already have. Which is shitty, because her numbers suck and she's not super likeable. Unfortunately, I do believe many people would see removing her as a further example of systemic racism.
 
The one area that wins the best for Democrats is abortion rights. Kamala has been gaining points by talking about it. That issue will absolutely resonate with voters. Tie it into Project 2025. Tie it into how state by state, voters are approving abortion rights over Republican objections in places like Ohio and Kansas. Florida is voting on the right to codify abortion in their constitution. It's a winning issue and Biden isn't going to be the best spokesman on it. Yes, you may not want an abortion but your soon to be an adult daughter might need life saving care that these shitbags won't let her have because their twisted minds would prefer she die than the non-viable fetus. Biden can't deliver that message any longer or at least not a way that resonates.
 
Well, you also get the advantage of when Trump starts attacking her, that could rally more people to her side. Yes, black folks might not find her ideal but then you get to expose the other side for the racist shitbags they are.

Why have we heard nothing from Trump since the debates? He wants Biden to stay in the race.
I wish I still believed in people enough to think they'd care, but if they don't think he's racist by now then they're either racist too or comfortable ignoring it. Maybe it'll motivate some more to not sit it out. One can hope if she ends up in that position.
 
I wish I still believed in people enough to think they'd care, but if they don't think he's racist by now then they're either racist too or comfortable ignoring it. Maybe it'll motivate some more to not sit it out. One can hope if she ends up in that position.
You just have to get more voters to come out than he does in states like Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Arizona, Nevada, and Georgia.
 
Well, you also get the advantage of when Trump starts attacking her, that could rally more people to her side. Yes, black folks might not find her ideal but then you get to expose the other side for the racist shitbags they are.

Why have we heard nothing from Trump since the debates? He wants Biden to stay in the race.
We’ve heard plenty from Trump it’s just always buried underneath the fifteen reports on what ever Biden gaff is the most important today.
 
This conversation is far more nuanced than my rushing around sweating to get errands done and then coraling a toddler all day is going to allow me to really think thinks out, so please bear with me if I don't get it all right the first time...

Identity politics suck for sure, and I absolutely don't think Harris is the answer to gaining black voters... but I'm sure passing her over as next in line in favour if a lesser known white person will absolutely lose them a decent chunk of the black voters they already have. Which is shitty, because her numbers suck and she's not super likeable. Unfortunately, I do believe many people would see removing her as a further example of systemic racism.
I know and wasn't thinking that you were reducing it only to that except for expediency. I just think it's a lot more complicated and unfortunately I think the biggest reason we've seen a spike in her numbers is because she's not been talking to the public much and only has on hot issues like abortion that are popular with the base. There's a lot of baggage in her political closet for the Republicans to exploit though. Still, I think they know that anyone other than Biden has the potential to fire up the center in a way that he can't and they're counting on a poor turn out for the Dems more than winning over more voters to the Republicans. Conservatives know they're nearly at the ceiling of who will go their way, so keeping a candidate like Biden that no one at all is excited about is their best bet as it stands.
 
We’ve heard plenty from Trump it’s just always buried underneath the fifteen reports on what ever Biden gaff is the most important today.
That's really only been since the media turned on him since the debate though. There was a ton on Trump's bs just a couple weeks ago. The narrative will turn again once the idiotic media realize this story isn't generating the clicks they want. It is crap that they haven't given equal time to how insane and false everything Trump said in the debate was.
 
That's really only been since the media turned on him since the debate though. There was a ton on Trump's bs just a couple weeks ago. The narrative will turn again once the idiotic media realize this story isn't generating the clicks they want. It is crap that they haven't given equal time to how insane and false everything Trump said in the debate was.
I mean, I think it is generating the clicks they want or they would stop running it.

I mean I just checked CNN’s fact check site, they gave Trump some shit for the debate but it doesn’t change the fact that their headline is Biden’s interview, some other shit , then Trump said Washington didn’t have slaves. lol. Then you get to a myriad of Trump lies during the debate articles below the ad spot.

I don’t think middle of the road folks are going to go to actual liberal news outlets to see think pieces on why Trump disavowing Project 2025 is complete and utter bullshit.

Hell even informed people here want to give Trump the benefit of the doubt when the thing’s written by his cabinet and campaign staff. When Trump has in public said the guy running the site is doing good work.

Biden has been the item in the news since the debate and it’s deafening.
 
What actually needs to happen right now is Harrison needs to say Biden is in or out. If he is in then it’s a matter of rallying behind him and putting Trump to task. If he is out, it needs to be a clear plan in what happens next while still putting Trump to task.

The longer we play a wait and see game, the more we play into the GOP’s hands.
 
I'm paying attention to him too, but it's not like there's any surprises left in that dumpster.
Also Democrats in general have a little bit of standards, todays Republican Party doesn’t care how bad their candidate as long as he wins the election and nominates heritage foundations judges to take away as many rights as possible except for guns.
 
Also Democrats in general have a little bit of standards, todays Republican Party doesn’t care how bad their candidate as long as he wins the election and nominates heritage foundations judges to take away as many rights as possible except for guns.
Correct. Trump is the means to an end. He's the useful idiot who give them everything they want because it won't affect him. He's a rich, white male.
 
I mean, I think it is generating the clicks they want or they would stop running it.

I mean I just checked CNN’s fact check site, they gave Trump some shit for the debate but it doesn’t change the fact that their headline is Biden’s interview, some other shit , then Trump said Washington didn’t have slaves. lol. Then you get to a myriad of Trump lies during the debate articles below the ad spot.

I don’t think middle of the road folks are going to go to actual liberal news outlets to see think pieces on why Trump disavowing Project 2025 is complete and utter bullshit.

Hell even informed people here want to give Trump the benefit of the doubt when the thing’s written by his cabinet and campaign staff. When Trump has in public said the guy running the site is doing good work.

Biden has been the item in the news since the debate and it’s deafening.
I meant once it does stop generating clicks. I know it's hot right now and honestly for good reason. But people will get bored and the next hot thing will rise.
 
Disclaimer: I’ve felt absolutely sick since the debate. I had nightmares for the next three nights, and not explicitly about the election, but that has definitely triggered some kind of existential anxiety that I wasn’t previously experiencing and that I am honestly having kind of a hard time keeping a lid on.

BUT, I’m also trying not to let myself be tossed about by the waves of reporters chasing scoops from anonymous “operatives” and “donors.”

He’s an old man, he looks more feeble than he used to, and it’s getting harder to distinguish between his gaffes and his stutter and true confusion. I get it. Our candidate is an inarticulate geezer at a time when we need an orator with a flaming sword of righteous truth. But that person…hasn’t shown up. So it seems like we probably oughta catch our breath and assess what is actually possible to accomplish in a deeply polarized nation of 260M voters spread across a huge landmass within the next 4 months.

Re: Harris, I accept that a lot of Black voters don’t like her personally and for a variety of reasons, but just as many or more Black voters are no longer tolerant of an “I’ll vote for a Black woman, but not *that* Black woman” mentality, and there’s mostly only one reason for that. Doing that now, with these stakes, is an insult of the highest order. She’s the Vice President of the United Goddamn States, and she deserves some credit for having been a heartbeat from the presidency for four years already. Thinking that the party can pass over her and anoint someone else without a PAINFUL amount of backbiting and infighting is a total delusion. There’s no time for that. This is too important to take our eye off the general election. Primary season is over.

There are only two realistic options here: stay the course with Joe, or hand off to Kamala. That’s it. Everything else is magical/panicked thinking. When we engage in navel-gazey criticisms for why Biden *should* step aside, we do the right’s work for them. There’s Biden, and Harris, and that’s it. For better or worse, we’re going to have to dance with the ones that brung us.

When you have a nominee you don’t spend the campaign moping about how they’re not the ideal candidate. Especially now, the only object is to win. Act like it.
Probably not surprising that I disagree wholeheartedly with this take. It doesn't matter what any of us or even Biden thinks about Harris, it all comes down to the electors at the convention if he steps aside. Most everything else is navel-gazing as you say. There is no primary, there is no handing it off. It's all Biden's unless he bounces and then it's the electors. No one else has any control over the outcome, and it's very unlikely that they'll all be on board with anyone, although Harris probably would have the best shot if it were held today. But she's only VP because Biden chose her. It's not a democratically elected position. If it was, she wouldn't be there. But if she's the candidate that's forced on us, I'd absolutely vote for her over Trump. Doesn't mean she deserves any of our respect. In a democracy they are all just people and they can be just another schmuck like the rest of us with a loss. Trump was the president of the GD US, and he doesn't deserve a shit on his grave. Neither did Pence. And Johnson certainly doesn't today.

Second, one of the things I like slightly more about the Dem voters (and I'm not a Dem and probably never will be, and certainly never would be a Republican) is that they don't usually put their head in the sand and refuse to say what sucks about their candidates. We don't need two cult of personality types. If Biden commits crimes or pulls a January 6th, I'd agree with every take on Fox News calling for him to go to prison for it, even if they're obviously hypocrites. No candidate is going to be perfect. But it does no favors for our society if we drink the flavor-ade and pretend they are. Something that turned a lot of people off voting for Hillary and then Biden was being told to shut up and vote for them without acknowledging their flaws, because saying they were flawed was supposedly too scary and threatening. But if they can be taken down that easily then they are too flawed to be president. Being able to talk about their flaws is and always should be a profoundly American activity. We should always push them on where they are terrible.

Also, I have to publish stuff on these topics to keep my job, so it's not just venting on the internet for me. I've published more on Trump's style of governance than Biden's, but it's literally part of my job to be critical of what the government does and how it affects people. And I believe it's an important activity to engage in.

It's true that I agree that Trump needs to be beaten at all costs, but I'll never stop criticizing our government and how it sucks, until they put a bullet in my brain. Because Biden and Harris and Trump and most all of these career politicians are horrible people who do horrible things around the world. They have an enormous amount of power and for democracy to mean anything we need to hold them all to account. It's not worth saving if it doesn't even have that as a bare minimum in our political system.

All that said, absolutely vote for anyone who isn't Trump so long as they aren't worse. But don't give them a blank check to be bad. Force them to be accountable for their actions and force them to be better. They don't deserve our vote, they earn it by being public servants. And they are best reminded of that regularly.
 
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Well, I don’t disagree with anything you say. 😉

In more normal times, under more normal circumstances I’d be there too, shouting about what I want to be better than what is being offered. My post is focused only on what I think the possible path to victory is. I believe, as I have faith Biden does also, that using the convention to nominate anyone other than himself or Kamala Harris is a path to quicksand and total implosion by Election Day. The debate keeps getting framed as “certain doom [Biden] vs possible victory [someone else],” and I think that’s correct, only the conditions for those outcomes are totally backwards. There are other viable candidates, but not in the timeframe available to us. If this were July 2023, I’d say let’s go. But it’s not, and I’m preemptively exhausted from all of the “Newsome spokesperson criticizes Buttigieg over semi-obscure transportation policy failure from 2022”-type stories yet to be written/aired. October surprises are bad enough. I just can’t bear the thought of 100 days of them.
The thought of them trying to have a public sort of mini-primary in the media does sound like pure torture and would tank the Dems. I agree with that 100%. I also think there's a lot of selfish reasons why Newsome and Whitmer shouldn't try to take the baton from Biden. They have a better chance of losing now with a short time to make their case to the public, other than the hey I'm not Trump narrative, and it would likely make them unable to run again in four years. But I don't really think there will be another election in four years that the Dems would be allowed to win, so it's kind of a moot point. Harris can at least act like a continuation of Biden's campaign but in a younger body. So she's got a easier path, so long as she can not say anything too stupid during the run up to the general. In fact her best bet if she gets it is to say as little as possible and just be like hey I'm not Trump and I'm younger than Biden. Abortions for all!
 
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