Political Discussion

Indymisanthrope said:
Her statement wasn’t about Palestine though. It was about using protests to further antisemitism.

I didn’t say anyone here was. I’m saying that the average normie looking at Twitter saw pro-Hamas slogans. No matter what you think about the conflict, it remains a fact that Hamas is committed to the destruction of Israel. Any statement by an American presidential candidate that expresses any sympathy or solidarity with that aspect of the protests is by extension associating themselves with the Hamas platform in the eyes of the public. I’m not advocating that’s the way it should be, it’s just the way it is. A public statement like this is not the place for nuance. You cannot by definition “categorically” denounce this type of protest if you’re splitting hairs about how some of it is actually fine. The average American doesn’t have the bandwidth for that. The average American saw this:

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…and thought, “Wait, I always thought hating Jews was supposed to be bad.”

You and I and the people who defaced that space know there’s more to it than that. Does this educate anyone, or does it trigger confirmation bias among those who believe that the left has gone so far around the bend that they’re starting to align with Nazi ideology?

American politics is exclusively optics and theater.
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I agree 100% with everything you just typed for the record. I just had like an hour long phone call with a close friend in Maine who is pro-Hamas that was spurred by Kamala.

It ended with me saying, I'm pro-Palastine but not pro-Hamas and while I understand their is nuance to that conversation it is nothing but controproductive to say you are pro-Hamas.
 
Not for nothing “average normie” feeds into the whole “elite left” discourse. I’m not saying it’s wrong, just it’s as counterproductive as being Pro-Hamas. We can educate without talking down. See @Hemotep ’s post about the older student a couple pages back. That’s a much more effective way of bridging the divide.
 
MyWifeHatesTrain said:
Not for nothing “average normie” feeds into the whole “elite left” discourse. I’m not saying it’s wrong, just it’s as counterproductive as being Pro-Hamas. We can educate without talking down. See @Hemotep ’s post about the older student a couple pages back. That’s a much more effective way of bridging the divide.
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nah, there are a lot of things discussed here that feed into the “elite left” discourse (the mere existence of a politics thread, on a record collecting message board), referring to an average person/voter as an “average normie” isn’t one of them.
 
TenderLovingKiller® said:
nah, there are a lot of things discussed here that feed into the “elite left” discourse (the mere existence of a politics thread, on a record collecting message board), referring to an average person/voter as an “average normie” isn’t one of them.
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I promise you, the “average normie” doesn’t feel that way.

In order to change the discourse and get the work that we want done, we all have to realize the various things we do that continue to contribute to the climate. You have to realize what your baggage is and at least attempt to check it at the door.
 
MyWifeHatesTrain said:
Pro-Hamas is a fucked up stance to take.
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Cliff notes of our convo:

When he says he is "pro-Hamas", he is not saying that he aligns himself their religious views. He is saying that he views Israel as an occupier / colonizer and the people of Palestine as oppressed. And since Hamas is the only organization fighting for Palastine's freedom- he is pro Hamas.

To him there are a lot of parallels with Ukraine. There are definitely some nazi's within Ukraine's ranks, but he still sides with Ukraine as a country that has been invaded. He would also make the South Africa analogy.

Now what you have to understand about his viewpoints is that he while he understands the geo-political implications, they are not his priority. And he doesn't care to argue semantical about who was there first during biblical times. He would point to the fact that the Palastinians were there until we removed them in the 1940's.

Also, apparently most of his news on the situation is coming from Israel papers. Oh and he's a Jewish suburban Maine dad of two, married to an Asian American woman from Long Beach.
 
MyWifeHatesTrain said:
I promise you, the “average normie” doesn’t feel that way.

In order to change the discourse and get the work that we want done, we all have to realize the various things we do that continue to contribute to the climate. You have to realize what your baggage is and at least attempt to check it at the door.
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10000%. I am so fucking sick of the left eating itself. In 2019, I bounced from the scene I had been an activist within for about 4 years. As the Gen Zer's entered the scene it became a difficult space to be a white male in. Instead of finding ways to be productive, I had to always focus on "shriking" myself and letting others lead. Which I have no moral objective to-- but is emotionally exhausting (and being an activist is already exhausting".

5 years later and were seeing the end game-- the youngest of Gen Z males are turning right wing and are heavily Incel.
 
DownIsTheNewUp said:
Cliff notes of our convo:

When he says he is "pro-Hamas", he is not saying that he aligns himself their religious views. He is saying that he views Israel as an occupier / colonizer and the people of Palestine as oppressed. And since Hamas is the only organization fighting for Palastine's freedom- he is pro Hamas.

To him there are a lot of parallels with Ukraine. There are definitely some nazi's within Ukraine's ranks, but he still sides with Ukraine as a country that has been invaded. He would also make the South Africa analogy.

Now what you have to understand about his viewpoints is that he while he understands the geo-political implications, they are not his priority. And he doesn't care to argue semantical about who was there first during biblical times. He would point to the fact that the Palastinians were there until we removed them in the 1940's.

Also, apparently most of his news on the situation is coming from Israel papers. Oh and he's a Jewish suburban Maine dad of two, married to an Asian American woman from Long Beach.
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I’m pro-Palestine and anti-Hamas, I am also not antisemitic. Fuck Bibical times, speaking as a Christian, the Bible is terribly problematic as a history. We decided to tell an entire population they didn’t matter in the 40s and commited a minor atrocity because of what we viewed as a major atrocity. It further destabilized an already unstable area.
 
MyWifeHatesTrain said:
I’m pro-Palestine and anti-Hamas, I am also not antisemitic. Fuck Bibical times, speaking as a Christian, the Bible is terribly problematic as a history. We decided to tell an entire population they didn’t matter in the 40s and commited a minor atrocity because of what we viewed as a major atrocity. It further destabilized an already unstable area.
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100%. And that's the way being pro-Palastine should be articulated. Alas, the left has always had a marketing problem save the couple of years that Axelrod and the Pod Save bros had the microphone.
 
MyWifeHatesTrain said:
I promise you, the “average normie” doesn’t feel that way.

In order to change the discourse and get the work that we want done, we all have to realize the various things we do that continue to contribute to the climate. You have to realize what your baggage is and at least attempt to check it at the door.
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We have had different experiences with the word “normie” I have never experienced being called normal as a slight.
 
mdmost said:
Right, sympathize with Palestine, yes. Expressing support for Hamas, no. Protesting against Bibi, yes. Defacing property with Hamas slogans, no. The only thing I really don't like about her statement is the flag burning but I also don't think you should exclude the KKK from marching. But she's has to walk that because everyone is looking to pounce on any thing she does especially the media. I also don't make my votes based on a single issue. I take the totality of a candidate into account. But if that one issue is enough to drive you not to vote, again good luck then if she's not in office next January.
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Her statement on the flag seems appropriate. She doesn’t have to support burning of the flag even if it’s protected speech.
 
DownIsTheNewUp said:
Cliff notes of our convo:

When he says he is "pro-Hamas", he is not saying that he aligns himself their religious views. He is saying that he views Israel as an occupier / colonizer and the people of Palestine as oppressed. And since Hamas is the only organization fighting for Palastine's freedom- he is pro Hamas.

To him there are a lot of parallels with Ukraine. There are definitely some nazi's within Ukraine's ranks, but he still sides with Ukraine as a country that has been invaded. He would also make the South Africa analogy.

Now what you have to understand about his viewpoints is that he while he understands the geo-political implications, they are not his priority. And he doesn't care to argue semantical about who was there first during biblical times. He would point to the fact that the Palastinians were there until we removed them in the 1940's.

Also, apparently most of his news on the situation is coming from Israel papers. Oh and he's a Jewish suburban Maine dad of two, married to an Asian American woman from Long Beach.
Click to expand...

MyWifeHatesTrain said:
I’m pro-Palestine and anti-Hamas, I am also not antisemitic. Fuck Bibical times, speaking as a Christian, the Bible is terribly problematic as a history. We decided to tell an entire population they didn’t matter in the 40s and commited a minor atrocity because of what we viewed as a major atrocity. It further destabilized an already unstable area.
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I do not consider myself pro-Hamas (for the same reasons you all mention - extremist zealots, bad optics, et al), but, to put in simply, I get it. When you set the state of Israel and Hamas side by side and compare the amount of horrific shit and geopolitical fuckery.. there's one that comes way out ahead, and it's not the one designated a terrorist organization. Obviously can't condone the antisemitism either, but when you subject a people for generations, kill their children and families, and refuse them a life of dignity all in the name of your religion/culture, what are you expecting to foster?
 
Angsty said:
You know, I’m not really looking for a perfect candidate because there isn’t one.

My baseline is don’t set fire to the Constitution, don’t commit felonies and don’t try to overthrow a legal election.

My bar is low these days.
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Politicians are human. They will probably disappoint us.

So far, I like most all of what she’s done since Biden stepped down. She’ll fuck up eventually. Hopefully after soundly defeating Trump.
 
ayayrawn said:
I do not consider myself pro-Hamas (for the same reasons you all mention - extremist zealots, bad optics, et al), but, to put in simply, I get it. When you set the state of Israel and Hamas side by side and compare the amount of horrific shit and geopolitical fuckery.. there's one that comes way out ahead, and it's not the one designated a terrorist organization. Obviously can't condone the antisemitism either, but when you subject a people for generations, kill their children and families, and refuse them a life of dignity all in the name of your religion/culture, what are you expecting to foster?
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People have been killing each other in the name of the holy lands for literally thousands of years. These current atrocities are just a small part of a much larger and gruesome story. Both sides have done some absolutely horrendous shit. There are innocents and victims on both sides.
 
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